The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Strider on August 04, 2015, 10:42:10 PM
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Ok everyone. I have come to a crossroads. Full disclosure, I have been a .45 guy all my life. Cut my teeth on them. But I gotta admit that modern ammo has really closed the gap. I have made the switch to 9mm on most of my platforms. Give my access to shooting reports and anecdotal evidence, I am a convert. Other than very heavy winter clothing, The differences are nil.
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We also have cookies here on the dark side.
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Well, 9 mm, has been good enough for European's for 100 years, and the French have certainly drop tested them extensively.
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Some 9mm +P ammo is as powerful as some .45 ACP standard loads but a .45 makes bigger holes. My Para Ordnance .45s have magazine capacities of 10 - 15 rounds, 20 in the extended mags. If I can't hit what I'm aiming at with 10-15 rounds the additional few rounds a 9mm gives me wouldn't be of much use. Plus I like +P ammo in my .45s that is more powerful than any 9mm +P.
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Ok everyone. I have come to a crossroads. Full disclosure, I have been a .45 guy all my life. Cut my teeth on them. But I gotta admit that modern ammo has really closed the gap. I have made the switch to 9mm on most of my platforms......
I agree, and have done much the same. I'm still a big advocate of the .45 ACP, but most all of my handgun purchases in the last 5 years have been 9 MM by a 2 to 1 margin. The 9 MM has a lot going for it. Most notably is cost. It's about 70% less than .45 ACP, comparing Ball to Ball. Today, 9 MM Ball is again available for around $10.00 a box. About the cheapest I've found reloadable .45 ACP Ball is $17.00+. Some higher, very few lower.
And in high performance self defense ammo, the 9 MM has improved leaps and bounds. So has the .45 ACP. But today's modern high performance 9 MM's are right up there with stopping ability. Back in the 70's you couldn't give me one. Today I love them.
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Bullets are bullets, it's placement that matters.
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I think a lot of people are making the move from 45 to 9. My next pistol will be 9mm, probably a G19 too-the even darker side.
I will still shoot my XDM 45 in USPSA Limited 10, maybe even Limited if I get some mag extensions (Canyon Creek says 18 rounds).
For now I still carry my XDS in 45, because I have it.
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I even bought a 9 MM AR-15 a while back!
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/RRA9MMCarbine2.jpg) (http://s812.photobucket.com/user/billt460/media/RRA9MMCarbine2.jpg.html)
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/RRA9MMCarbine.jpg) (http://s812.photobucket.com/user/billt460/media/RRA9MMCarbine.jpg.html)
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What about splitting the difference with .40 ?
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What about splitting the difference with .40 ?
The .40 S&W isn't much of an improvement over the 9 MM. Especially today with all of the modern, reliable expanding, high performance self defense ammo that's available out there. It's basically nothing more than a shortened 10 MM, which is a hell of a cartridge. Even a lot of the police departments that bought into the .40 hype in the late 90's, are now going back to the 9 MM.
About all it does do, is give you more recoil, less capacity, and tear up guns faster. It's not that it's "bad". It just doesn't offer much, if any improvement. It has become the proverbial solution to a non existent problem. The ammo is more expensive, albeit not enough to make much of a difference. And during all of the seemingly never ending ammo scares we've been through in the last 7 years, it's been a bit more available. But now with 9 MM Ball dropping back to around $10.00 a box, and pretty much available everywhere, even that incentive is gone.
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http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/
This is a good read on why the FBI is going back to the 9 MM.
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http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/
This is a good read on why the FBI is going back to the 9 MM.
Exactly. Their reasons for going with the 40 S&W rather than the 45 ACP when leaving the poorly performing 9mm now apply to the much improved performance of the 9mm.
Increased capacity and reduced recoil without a sacrifice in effectiveness make it a smart decision.
I stopped carrying a 1911 back at the time of the FBI trials and started carrying a Glock 23 in 40 S&W when they became available
Will have to start watching for good 9mm gelatin tests.
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http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/
This is a good read on why the FBI is going back to the 9 MM.
That article says something about the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. Those same technologies are being applied to the .40 and .45 too. All 3 calibers are becoming more effective. I'll stick with my .45s for now. I have 3 double-column Paras so I'm not sacrificing much in magazine capacity by not switching to 9mm. If I can't hit my target in 15 rounds then I probably wouldn't hit it with 18.
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That article says something about the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. Those same technologies are being applied to the .40 and .45 too. All 3 calibers are becoming more effective. I'll stick with my .45s for now. I have 3 double-column Paras so I'm not sacrificing much in magazine capacity by not switching to 9mm. If I can't hit my target in 15 rounds then I probably wouldn't hit it with 18.
Thing with that is that the 45 in particular has little room for improvement and still remain a pistol caliber, while the 9mm can approach and surpass the 45 due to it's ability to be driven faster.
That speed, along with a bullet design that allows for the needed penetration and expansion give the 9mm and edge.
Now, add in the reduced recoil and control of the 9mm, along with increased capacity and longer life and reduced maintenance on the firearms, and you have a better choice.
Believe me...I have been a proponent of big and heavy for adequate penetration and wound size and went to a Glock 21 from my 1911 because of increased capacity and, due to the Glock design, reduced recoil giving better control.
And I switched to the 40 S&W when "science" showed that there were advantages.
I have, until recently, poo-poo'ed the 9mm because all the +++PPPPP++++ stuff just meant trying to drive it faster without insuring adequate terminal ballistics to get the job done..
Now, the bullet design of 9mm allows that performance.
There is one drawback..and I can't evaluate it....but I've always shied away from super-sonic defensive hand gun rounds..mainly because that speed would lead to lessened terminal performance...but noise could be an issue...and still could...but don't know if it is any kind of deal breaker.
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It's 7AM and I am posting some "laying awake at 3AM" thoughts, so bear with me.
All 3 will get the job done, that's a fore gone conclusion. But doesn't purpose enter into it some what ?
With rifles we want to teach a certain range of distances and penetrate a specific target. For example, hunters need to penetrate meat and bone to teach vitals, while military shooters need to do the same after penetrating clothing web gear, and possibly a certain level of protective gear. Cartridge sizes started out in the .45 caliber range for these purposes, and for big dangerous game, I will grant they have stayed there, (yes, Karamojo Bell hunted elephants with a 7 or 8 mm, but he also preferred an ear hole shot) as bullet and powder technology advanced how ever bullet diameter dropped to 6 mm (1898Lee -Navy ) and the current 5.56/5.45 fad but preference has stabilized in the area of .30 caliber as the best combination of velocity and bullet weight to get the job done at all ranges .
Pistols have a different purpose . Relatively short range, stop 'em NOW. Not necessarily immobilize, or kill, but STOP. It seems that a really heavy, not so fast bullet. would be more appropriate for self defense, since as a general rule of thumb any one the law justifies shooting is going to be close enough to injure you or recieve the loot a victim is expected to hand over.
I'm thinking, start at .50 GI and work down to the largest caliber you can shoot well (and afford to feed) .
Remember before you light me up that these are late night thoughts written early in the AM ;D
My personal idea for a great pistol would be a Walther -P 38 double stack, .45 with the controls and grip angle the same as a 1911 , Tritium, or TFO sights, and a barrel with integral suppressor.
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It's 7AM and I am posting some "laying awake at 3AM" thoughts, so bear with me.
All 3 will get the job done, that's a fore gone conclusion. But doesn't purpose enter into it some what ?
With rifles we want to teach a certain range of distances and penetrate a specific target. For example, hunters need to penetrate meat and bone to teach vitals, while military shooters need to do the same after penetrating clothing web gear, and possibly a certain level of protective gear. Cartridge sizes started out in the .45 caliber range for these purposes, and for big dangerous game, I will grant they have stayed there, (yes, Karamojo Bell hunted elephants with a 7 or 8 mm, but he also preferred an ear hole shot) as bullet and powder technology advanced how ever bullet diameter dropped to 6 mm (1898Lee -Navy ) and the current 5.56/5.45 fad but preference has stabilized in the area of .30 caliber as the best combination of velocity and bullet weight to get the job done at all ranges .
Pistols have a different purpose . Relatively short range, stop 'em NOW. Not necessarily immobilize, or kill, but STOP. It seems that a really heavy, not so fast bullet. would be more appropriate for self defense, since as a general rule of thumb any one the law justifies shooting is going to be close enough to injure you or recieve the loot a victim is expected to hand over.
I'm thinking, start at .50 GI and work down to the largest caliber you can shoot well (and afford to feed) .
Remember before you light me up that these are late night thoughts written early in the AM ;D
My personal idea for a great pistol would be a Walther -P 38 double stack, .45 with the controls and grip angle the same as a 1911 , Tritium, or TFO sights, and a barrel with integral suppressor.
Everything you said is not only true, but good, ballistic common sense. The problem is control. This is what got the FBI into such a mess when they got away from their .357 / .38 revolvers after the 1986 Miami shootout. They wanted a more powerful weapon for their agents that held more than 6 rounds. After one of the worst days in FBI history, where 2 agents were killed and several more wounded and crippled, they went to the newer 10 MM Auto, which is a fantastic cartridge. The problem they ran into almost immediately, is few agents could control it effectively enough to make reliable hits. So they went to Federal, and they designed a "10 MM Light" or "10 MM FBI" load. It kinda, sorta worked. But the guns were big and heavy for the ballistic performance they delivered with the weaker loading.
Then Smith & Wesson saw a huge opportunity, and they went to work and developed a "10 MM Short", which went on to become the .40 S&W. It sold like hotcakes because it could easily be built on smaller 9 MM framed guns. It became an instant success with law enforcement. Then, after several years of data collection of shootouts across the country, they found out it offered little if any real, tangible gain. Plus, they found out it was tearing up guns a lot faster.
In the meantime bullet development advanced light years after Winchester came out with their immensely successful "Black Talon" round, that expanded every time, all the time, in just about anything. It was renamed into what is now the successful Ranger Law Enforcement line. Other bullet and cartridge makers followed suit. And now we've got all but countless brands and types of the absolute best self defense ammunition ever created. All of which takes 9 MM performance to a level never before achieved. All while maintaining the ease of controllability the 9 MM cartridge is known for.
So it appears after 30 years, and countless guns and caliber changes, we've come full circle. Particularly in law enforcement. In a way it's a bit like the current automotive industry, where they're getting more from less. It used to be one horsepower from one cubic inch was a hot rodder's wet dream. Now you can buy it in any showroom with a full factory warranty. And it gets 20 MPG too boot. Calibers and ammunition have performed much the same. You don't need bigger calibers any more than you need bigger V-8's to achieve the same performance today.
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Personal variations in what can be shot by a 6 foot 250 pound guy, or a 110 pound woman were not taken into my thinking. In fact, they were purposely ignored because it add things really complicated.
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Personal variations in what can be shot by a 6 foot 250 pound guy, or a 110 pound woman were not taken into my thinking. In fact, they were purposely ignored because it add things really complicated.
Understood. The problem is law enforcement, and even the FBI employs everything from 5' 4", 110 pound cop chicks, to 6' 4", 240 pound boilermaker types. It becomes an all but unsolvable problem.
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A little hard to conceal, but there's always this.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+homemade+railgun&view=detail&mid=EDAF613DDC33A7A191D6EDAF613DDC33A7A191D6&FORM=VIRE3
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The 9x19mm and .40 S&W both operate at pressures 67% higher than the .45 ACP. Everyone says the .40 is hard on guns and wears them out too fast. Does the 9mm at the same pressure cause excessive wear?
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The 9x19mm and .40 S&W both operate at pressures 67% higher than the .45 ACP. Everyone says the .40 is hard on guns and wears them out too fast. Does the 9mm at the same pressure cause excessive wear?
For some reason not as much. Perhaps it's because of the smaller breech face transmits less energy over a smaller surface area, along with the .40 S&W having more recoil. But it's a proven fact over millions of rounds that .40's wear out guns faster.
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I am an unreconstructed 1911 fan after years of using it. But my new 1911s are 9mm. 9mm seems to be the sweet spot for and old guy. Less recoil, same accuracy and stopping power with the new ammo as the old .45.
Am I going to get rid of my .45s. Heck no!
I am a fan of my Sig 9mms as posted earlier. I have won or placed in the top 3 in league with my old German Police turn in 226 and with my S&W 1911 9mm.
Here is the monkey wrench thrown in. The .380 seems to be gaining a lot of popularity.
Hmmm, I wonder about a nice Walther PPK. It could be a nice carry piece -- Shades of Commander Bond. ;)
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I am an unreconstructed 1911 fan after years of using it. But my new 1911s are 9mm. 9mm seems to be the sweet spot for and old guy
[snip]
Here is the monkey wrench thrown in. The .380 seems to be gaining a lot of popularity.
Hmmm, I wonder about a nice Walther PPK. It could be a nice carry piece -- Shades of Commander Bond. ;)
Check AIM Surplus. They've got some used Star B 9mm 1911s I might even order one.
NEVER MIND. Got the email from them at 5:16pm yesterday and just went to their web site today (4pm) and they are sold out. I DEFINITELY will get one next time. $289.95
Carried a PPK/s for 20+ years. Did not like shooting it, but it was flat and concealed well. But I think I'll pass. My Shield conceals okay and I feel better with the 9mm.
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I have one of the S&W made Walther PPK's in .380. It's a nice small gun but it's heavy for the size and worse than that it has sharp edges and corners.
Unlike Mr. Bane, I not only acknowledge my Dremel Limitations I adhere to them. :o
I generally carry it in an ankle holster when I carry it. As far a being .380...that's just a 9mm short with a lighter bullet.
My everyday carry is a 9MM because it's lighter and more concealable. I don't perceive the difference in bullet performance as large a factor as say the 1) ability to conceal 2) ability to control and 3) capacity versus the 45 or the 40.
If I knew I was going to do battle with drugged out ISIS guys in the sandbox I'd go with the 45 hands down...or more likely a 10MM 1911 like Kimber makes. Ditto for a backup for hog and bear hunting.
As far as bullets wearing a gun out...after several thousand rounds out of a 45 M&P and a 1911 versus several thousand each out of 9MM M&P, CZ's, FN's, etc. I dunno if that is a big factor. By the time you wear out a 40 or a 45...if it wears out first, you'll be able to buy a 9MM on the savings.
For me the 9MM works better for everyday conceal.
Also, if pinched for cash, the savings can be invested in a 22 LR pistol of similar construct to your primary carry and used for training. Now, I say a 22 LR because the biggest boost I get in gun handling is when I train with my centerfire weapon and a 22 side by side. Every so often I swap from centerfire to 22 with the reduced recoil and catch myself pickup up old bad habits of anticipating recoil, improper trigger control, etc. The more I train with the 22 the less often I have too!
My 2 cents.
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Here is the monkey wrench thrown in. The .380 seems to be gaining a lot of popularity.
Not for people with big hands. I could never get my big paws around those tiny little guns. I purchased a Bond Arms Stainless Steel Derringer in .45 Colt / 3" .410 because I was so impressed with it's quality construction, I just had to have it. I can barely shoot it because I can't hold on to the damn thing. Those little Ruger LCP's would get lost in my hand, and I'd end up shooting my finger off. For me a Glock 26 with the 12 round extended magazine is as small as I can go.
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Just gotta join the conversation here. Billt's acknowledgement that his choice is a Glock 26 sounds about right to me. I carry a 27 because I have always liked the ballistics of .40 S&W. That said, I made a recent purchase of a Lone Wolf threaded conversion barrel in 9mm for my 27.
I've run a few dozen 9mm rounds through it at a local range and I have to admit, I see very little difference in recoil, shot placement, or anything else noticeable from shooting .40 S&W. Modern ballistics have done much to equalize performance.
It is nice to have a second option, though.
Crusader Rabbit
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Alf, Rastus, and Billt,
Thanks for your comments on the .380 and PPK. I still like the PPK idea, but it does bark and kick with full power defensive ammo. Not as much with Cabela's Herters target stuff -- could be due to the lighter bullet.
I have been trying out the S&W Walther PPK. I have not noticed any sharp edges. I like the S&W because of the bigger beaver tail than on the German one my friend carries -- but his is older by a lot. I have another friend that has a PPKs that he is selling because he does not like that it bites the web of his hand. So, he has switched to the Ruger LC9 like the one I could not wait to get rid of.
Alf's comment about the 9mm Shield is interesting. The Shield is a bit smaller, I think, than my old reliable Sig P6. But, Alf, how is the Shield's trigger? I hear less than stellar things about the trigger pull. I guess I'll have to find a buddy who has one and try it out.
On the .22 thing, I happen to have a .22 PPKs German one that I love to shoot. It has a nice trigger and is accurate enough for the North Macomb SC Pistol League annual mouse gun shoot. A couple of friends borrow it for the shoot. They have been close, but haven't out shot me yet. It is the reason I have been thinking about the PPK .380 as a carry gun.
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I've heard of people getting bit by the PPK if they use to high a hold.
Usually 1911 shooter used to the "idiot proof " beaver tail .
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The Shield's trigger is about the same as most striker fired guns. Not great, but not bad. I did 25 yd work this past week and it took a very slow, deliberate pull to keep it on paper at 25 yds (paper means 1/2 size USPSA target). I only worked on the 25 yd range with it because I want to be prepared in case a long shot is needed sometime.
Of course the PPK is a DA/SA so after the first shot you've got excellent trigger. I'm just not ready to go back to .380.
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Thanks, Alf
That helps me.
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I should have said square edges....not sharp edges, sorry.
And, it's a bit of a deal sometimes when carrying...but then I'm a fatboy with a Dunlop.....
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I have a dunlap. It dun lapped over my belt. I don't carry at this time but I heard that could cause problems. I don't know why I keep putting off getting my CPL. When I get it I'll probably pocket carry my LCP. I have a ankle holster for my NAA mini too. A .380 and a .22 magnum is better than nothing.