The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on January 20, 2016, 09:34:44 AM
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I purchased a 3-Way LED bulb to replace an incandescent bulb that you can no longer buy. They advertise an AVERAGE life of 25,000 hours, (Cree 3-Way LED). That's the equivalent of 2.8 YEARS of continuous use. Mine failed after less than 1,000 hours. Normally I would just purchase another. But I paid almost $25.00 for this bulb. This is the 3rd one of these type of bulbs, (LED), that I've had fail in such a short period of time. When I went on the Home Depot website and read the reviews, I was not alone. There were people complaining left and right about much the same thing.
They really need to improve the longevity of these bulbs, if they are going to charge this much money for a product that lives nowhere near as long as they advertise it. The one's I've purchased did not last as long as the $1.50 incandescent bulbs that they replaced. I wish I could go back to them.
It's not just the LED bulbs either. All of these CFL's, (Compact Fluorescents), are much the same way. I'm constantly replacing them. They burn out much quicker than incandescent bulbs do. Or else they flicker, or don't come on right away, sometimes taking several seconds to come on. This is especially true in outside applications in cold weather. And when they do come on they are very dim until they "warm up". I should have stocked up on incandescent bulbs while they were still available. Now I'm stuck with buying these worthless, expensive turds.
In comparison, we've been in this house for over 18 years. I have regular 48" Fluorescent lighting in my kitchen. I've replaced the bulbs once. And they burn more than any other bulbs in the house. Usually from when we get up, until we go to bed.
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My wife just called me from Wal-Mart, and she said they had incandescent 3-Way bulbs for $2.50 for a 2-Pack. 75W-125W-175W. I told her to get half a dozen packs.
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Same experience with Cree 100W LEDs. And CFLs...
I liked the 100W LEDs because they would not over load a socket rated for 60W incandescent...if the LEDs fit in the space.
Not sure if it is Cree or the whole LED concept...but the price/longevity is way out of balance.
Deceptive advertising is at work also.
But then an ad that says "Guaranteed to last almost as long as a $1.50 old fashioned incandescent bulb for only 15 Times As Much!!" won't generate a flood of sales.
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Forced upon us by the .gov is destined to fail! I had a few Cree fail too. I bought 150 bucks worth of Phillips and they're fine!
Problem is that my electric bill went up due to New England's reliance on coal...
I doubt the bulbs reduce cost at all...
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Another thing I've noticed with the Cree 3-Way LED's is the base, (heat sink, ballast, whatever), gets hotter than hell. It will blister your fingers if you touch it after it's been on for a while. This type of very high temperature operation can't help the life of these things. They basically cook themselves.
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Heat is lost energy! How efficient can that be?
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OK, I took it back to Home Depot with the receipt. They couldn't have been nicer. They still sell the Cree 3-Way I brought back. They told me they would replace it with the same, OR, they would be willing to give me a Phillips 3-Way that was more money, and was the latest and greatest with "improved" technology, internals, etc. So naturally I went with the Phillips. So now we'll see how long this one lasts??
I'm sure eventually they'll get these things right. The problem is "eventually" I'll be dead.
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I never heard of Cree, but I bought dollar store compact flouresents when I moved into this apt for $5 / pair and in 9+ years they are still working. The one in the bathroom has been on the whole time.
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Cheaply made LED and the bulbs are a ripoff. LEDs do give off some heat, and yes, that heat needs to be conducted off or it will shorten the life of the diode. Hence the large heat sinks, that do get rather hot, but not as hot as a comparable incandescent.
Generally accepted advertising practice is to rate the life of lamps based on a 3hr maximum usage per day. Or at least per on cycle. Prolonged heat is not good for LEDS. Flourscents are rated on a minimum of 3hr usage per on/off cycle.
Incandescents are still available, because they have improved their efficiency. I do like LEDs because I can stick a 100W LED in a fixture only rated for a 60W lamp.
I started writing the date I installed the lamp on the base of the lamp with a magic marker.
My gut say Phillips is going to be a better quality than Cree.
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It's been on for about 2 hours now, and I touched the heat sink and it is hotter than hell. (Highest setting). So I switched it off to let it cool. I'm going to try to run this one less continuously and see if it lasts longer. I had it on the highest setting. When I turn it back on I'll use the lowest setting and see if it doesn't get so hot.
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I never heard of Cree,.....
My gut say Phillips is going to be a better quality than Cree.
Cree makes most all of the LED bulbs that are used in weapons lights, and small, high efficiency flash lights. But those run off batteries. They draw far less power, and are not on for long periods of time. So it stands to reason longevity isn't as much of a problem with them as it is with 110 volt LED's. They roast in their sockets.
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We are using Feit. They are sold at the local Ace Hardware. We have been replacing the old bulbs with them as they burn out. Never have been a fan of CFL for the house, as they don't last. We have them in the barns, and they have a long life there where they are on for long periods of time - Half never get turned off.
With about half our house switched to the LED our electric bill has gone down about 10%, but we are leaving lights on far more. We never turn off the outside lights (10 fixtures), and we have some in living spaces we never turn off. Call me an energy hog, but it is nice to be able to navigate without stubbing my toes.
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I stocked up on 100 and 60 watt incandescent bulbs as well. When the wifey heads to the cellar she wants instant light. The CFL's get worse as they age and the LED's I use for more frequently used fixtures.
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I haven't tried any LED bulbs yet. I have some incandescents left and a bunch of 60 watt equivalent CFLs the power company gave me that are only 13 watts. I'm using a pair of 100 watt equivalent CFLs that use 23 or 26 watts in one light fixture. I had a couple of light switches that I replaced with dimmer switches and have recently switched back to regular light switches so I can use any type of bulb anywhere in the house. I replaced my 40 watt bulbs with 29 watt bulbs as they burned out and they make almost the same amount of light. I can't tell the difference. My plan is to use the 75 watt incandescents in single fixtures and 13 watt CFLs in multiple fixtures not counting the one with 5 bulbs.
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LED's are getting better. I use them to make up for not having enough light and too small of sockets.
The Phillips have better heat sinks and last longer. The Feits seem to hold up OK too. There was a brand Eco-Smart through the Home Despot. I really like their output in lumens and in color...most of the early ones hit the trash and they honored the warranty back when...but I cannot find them to honor the others that have died.
I put a couple of CREE in and like them...but I wonder if they'll get hot and die young.
In my ceiling fans and other fixtures I've drilled holes to allow some air circulation past the bulb base...all of those set up for ":flow-Through" are still good.
And, oh yeah. Get the lower "temperature bulbs" for better light. Many of the high lumen outputs are 4,000 K or 5,000 k which is to blue/white...at least too much for me. I like around 3,200.
The higher in the "temperature" the more efficient in lumens...dropping the temp to get more realistic light gives you less lumens.
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I have decided to stay away from LEDs until they technology matures - which it has not (at least not in the 110v versions - I installed 100% LEDs in my 12v motor home system). As for CFLs I'm not seeing the short life described by some here - but I do not think I am getting the claimed life either.
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You can still get incandescent bulbs,Do a web search for Rough service bulbs,Can't use a CFL in a garage because they get broken too often and you need a HazMat clean up because of the mercury.
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You can still get incandescent bulbs,Do a web search for Rough service bulbs,Can't use a CFL in a garage because they get broken too often and you need a HazMat clean up because of the mercury.
Thanks. That's good to know Majer. Although I've thrown out many a CFL in the trash. I'm sure millions of others have as well.
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I learned years ago that the secret to CFL's is that you get what you pay for. If you buy the cheep ones they are extremely fragile, and they don't last as advertised. I replaced the 130w bulbs in the funeral home (36 bulbs) with the CFL rated for the fixture. When I purchased quality ones they lasted several years. The "money man" complained about what I spent, so he went to a place I will not name but call "W" and purchased the supply for me. After getting 3-5 years out of the quality, I was getting 18 months and less out of the bargain CFL's (that is less than I got out of the incandescents).
During my stint, 10 years, on our local Utility Commission, we were constantly pushed by the government to push these things. I am not against conservation, but I asked about the mercury issue. The greenies push the issue of mercury from power plants, but I pointed out that we are now putting mercury in every light socket in the community, and most of those are being thrown into the regular waste stream. I was told I was wrong about the waste stream, because that is illegal - How many people follow that law, or even know about it?
On to another thought - Carbon Sequestration.
Do you want to see an engineer's head explode and a Sierra Club protester jump down your throat? At a public meeting, ask them what possible issue there could be with taking super heated liquid carbon collected from power plant stacks and pumping it into "spent" oil wells. When I asked that question in St. Paul the plan was to pump this liquid carbon from 300 - 500 miles from plants in Nebraska, South Dakota, and Minnesota to oil wells in North Dakota. Wells on the edge of what is now called the Bakken Fields. The only rational response I got was an engineer who said "Hummmmm."
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It's called a CO2 Flood! It's secondary or tertiary oil recovery. Lots of oil being produced that way but you need the right conditions. The CO2 dissolves into the oil causing it to swell and that drops the viscosity in the rock pore throats and it flows out where previously trapped by just being to "thick" to move.
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In other words, the oil industry is playing the green game to sell, or get help with, oil harvest. According to the Sierra Club protesters, this is all about putting carbon that would go into the sky into deep dark abandoned wells.
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Here is what I'm finding out about these things. At least the 3-Way models. I took this one back to Home Depot the other day because it crapped out. (I mentioned how hot the heat sink got).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-30-60-100W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A21-3-Way-LED-Light-Bulb-BA21-16027OMF-12WE26-1U100/205226208
They replaced it for no charge with this model Phillips 3-Way. They told me it was "better".
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-40-60-100W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-3-Way-A21-LED-Light-Bulb-453340/205427985?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-205427987-_-205427985-_-N
I took it home, installed it, and turned it on the lowest setting, and let it run for several hours after I had it on the highest setting, and it got really hot. On the lowest setting the ballast, heat sink, whatever, barely got warm to the touch. I then turned it to the second notch and let it run for a few more hours. It got much warmer to the touch. Finally I turned it to the highest and brightest setting. And after an hour you would burn your fingers if you grabbed it without knowing.
I think what is happening with these things, is they're cooking the internals on the brightest settings. (Where I ran the one that failed most all the time). So this one I'll keep at the first 2 settings, and only use the brightest for short periods of time. This doesn't happen on the battery models because the batteries don't put out anywhere near that much power. Until they find a way to make these things run cooler, or else come up with better high temperature components, they are not going to last. At least not on the higher settings. I just can't see how, seeing as how hot they get.
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Ha, Ha,
I bought cases of incandescent bulbs before the switch became mandatory.
I use about 8 200w bulbs to "heat" my garage on cold winter nights -- keeps my 3 stall garage above freezing on the coldest of nights.
I just hate the jerks telling us how to live in the name of some junk theory. :P
My electric company keeps sending me messages that I use more energy than my neighbors. Screw em, my house is a lot older and bigger than most of my neighbors.
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I use about 8 200w bulbs to "heat" my garage on cold winter nights -- keeps my 3 stall garage above freezing on the coldest of nights.
Wouldn't you be better off just running a 1,600 watt electric heater instead? I have one of those oil filled, electric radiator type heaters, and it puts out a lot of heat. I know it uses less than 1,600 watts. 1,500 watts I think on the highest setting. It's got to be better than using light bulbs.
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Back to the OP for a second, Fellow DRTV Drifters!
I replaced about half of the incandescents in my house with LEDs - will not go near CFLs and replaced many my wife had with LEDs - and so far (<frantically knocking wood here>) have had no problems, even with regular use. OTOH, I put a brand new 3-way incandescent into a fixture, and about 2 weeks later, after light use, I accidentally bumped the lamp and all 3 ways blew at once.
For the record, I get a mix of LEDs from Home Depot and Wal-Mart (the single wattage ones from Wally World have been relegated to the basement as they have a very noticeable lag time in turning on), and are a mix of Philips and Cree.
Oddly, one of the Philips 3-way LEDs works as low-max-middle wattage instead of the more familiar low-middle-max sequence we're all used to.
Back to the oil sequestration drift already in progress . . . ::) ;)
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I didn't even know they still made 3-way bulbs of any type. I only have one 3-way and it's an incandescent I never use because I have 5 bulbs overhead. I use one of the other 3 bulbs on the lamp as a night light. It looks like it says 50-100-150. I checked and it works. I had one in the past where you could see the filaments. One filament is low and the other is medium. Full power is both of them together. In the past I've had a problem with them not lasting as long as standard one-way bulbs. If I ever use the lamp somewhere else it's nice to know there are replacement bulbs.
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My work related problem is getting them that respond to dimmers. Sure a lot of them "dim", but I need a smooth steady dimming with no gliches from 0 to 100%. It doesn't have to be linear, as I can adjust the dimming curve, but it does need to be smooth.
Some only jump from one level to another. Some flicker at certain levels. Some work fine by themselves but not when there are multiple lights in the circuit. Some don't work by themselves, but will work when a incandescent ghost load of 50W or more is added to the circuit. And in most cases I need 1,500 lumens or better.
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I have CFL's that dim on my pool lights, but not LED's. Even the CFL's work like crap. So much so I don't even try to dim them. I just run them full blast.
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In other words, the oil industry is playing the green game to sell, or get help with, oil harvest. According to the Sierra Club protesters, this is all about putting carbon that would go into the sky into deep dark abandoned wells.
No, that's not it. Only a small percentage of fields, less than say 5%, are candidates. You have to have high viscosity oil, tight rock, dip angle and a large area of homogenous reservoir to justify a CO2 recovery job. It's big upfront costs and you need a big target so not a lot of opportunities for that.
And, it's expensive. You have to transfer the CO2, compress/liquify it to 3,500 to 5,000 psig to inject it, drill wells in a pattern to sweep the area around existing wells...not cheap at all. The CO2 destroys downhole tubulars and surface facilities through corrosion...partial pressures of CO2 have to be considered at every point in the process. I can't see anyone starting up a CO2 flood on pricing less than $65/bbl for oil.
The help we want is to get the government off of our backs. For instance, instead of being able to tie into a neighboring company's electrical system and metering I'm required to build my own line to the utility provider....$650k vs $300k...some states prevent public utilities from requiring this...Texas doesn't. Basing reserve prices on the end of the year price....so a reserve bbl of oil is one that makes at least a one cent profit per bbl. Using end of year pricing...what, around $33/bbl this year?...that takes a lot of bbls off the company reserves which reduces the company's value and now the bank owns them...next year price is up to $40 and gee no problem with value...but oh too late the value went from 0 to 50 million for the bank. Some kind of dual reporting average is needed but then the banks wouldn't get the hard work of others at a loss. And then there is all of the regulatory reporting, etc....
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I can't see anyone starting up a CO2 flood on pricing less than $65/bbl for oil.
This is the reason they're letting the price of oil fall through the floor. The Arabs are trying to collapse the alternative energy programs in this country by flooding the market with cheap oil. Once they do, just watch how fast the price of oil goes back up to it's past level. It's not that easy to start up these programs once they're shut down and people are laid off, and equipment is sold, and or mothballed.
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Yes, our current rig count is around 664 working down from 2,000. We peaked around 4,500 in 1981 and stayed on the 850-1,000 range until around the year 2000 then up from there. We're more efficient now and need fewer rigs on diminishing opportunity with the technology we have for unconventional pay (shale plays). Rig count graph in link below:
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/e_ertrr0_xr0_nus_cM.htm (http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/e_ertrr0_xr0_nus_cM.htm)
No one responsible in the business, except the bankers and lawyers, ever wanted oil to shoot above $85 a barrel. That always causes problems with oversupply and lots of lost jobs. $60 to $85 and we can make do instead of over 300,000 people without jobs today. Problem is that so much money goes overseas and our "oversupply" of 5 million extra barrels a day over what would have been without "shale plays" has helped in propping up the Obummer administration.
When the price of bottled water is more than capital intensive oil that tells you something. People want to pay for what they want...not what they need....I get that. But it would helps to have a floor price for domestic oil...say $50...Congress could do that with tariffs. That would stick it to the Arabs because we would ramp our production up more and cause a real oversupply in the world. They's be selling it for $20/bbl all day and the government could scoop up $30/bbl on a tariff.
But we'll do what we've been doing. Remember, 42 gallons in a barrel so the stock for gasoline is only 80 cents/gallon, add maybe 20 cents for refining. Of that 80 cents 20 to 22 cents goes to the mineral owner and 7 cents to state severance taxes. Wonder who is making the big bucks on it without the huge capital investment when you pay $1.50/gallon at the pump?????
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Wouldn't you be better off just running a 1,600 watt electric heater instead? I have one of those oil filled, electric radiator type heaters, and it puts out a lot of heat. I know it uses less than 1,600 watts. 1,500 watts I think on the highest setting. It's got to be better than using light bulbs.
I know you are right about the heater. Thank you.
But the heater would not provide the light for working in the garage. And would be another piece of equipment -- impedimenta -- that my kids would have to put out on the curb someday…… There are very few nights that I have to use the bulbs to heat the garage. It was 48 degrees in the garage this morning with out using the lights. I only turn the lights on when it gets into the LOW teens or below zero. I have only used 4 of the lights so far this year on one or two occasions.
Thanks again for your thoughtful reply with very good advice. I just wanted to provide you with the rest of the story.