The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ratcatcher55 on August 21, 2008, 12:16:27 PM
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Sorry but this seems pretty poor work for an LEO agency. I'm sure they are desperate to clear this up but I have to say I would not have come in myself.
By MANNY GAMALLO World Staff Writer
8/20/2008
Last Modified: 8/20/2008 2:20 AM
OSBI agents went to gun dealers and pawnshops to create a list of .40-caliber Glock owners.
WELEETKA — Authorities working to narrow their leads in the June 8 shooting deaths of two girls used old-fashioned legwork to come up with a list of area gun owners with .40-caliber pistols, one of two weapons used in the slayings.
Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.
"It's a typical procedure of any investigation" involving a gun, according to Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the OSBI.
That time-consuming procedure yielded the OSBI the names of more than 60 owners of .40-caliber guns in the Weleetka area.
Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah.
About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them.
The fired bullets and shell casings, meanwhile, were sent to a crime lab for analysis to determine if any of them match those used in the slayings of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13.
Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners.
The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.
"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help."
Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved.
"It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns.
On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners."
That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.
Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that.
According to Harris, most states, including Oklahoma, and the federal government do not have lists of registered gun owners.
He said the only way to get a listing of gun owners is by canvassing gun dealers or pawnshops individually to find out who bought weapons — as the OSBI did.
Harris said gun dealers — "federal firearms licensees" — have to fill out ATF form 4473 whenever a weapon is purchased. The form lists the buyer, the address and other pertinent information.
They also have to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine whether the prospective buyer can legally purchase a weapon.
Harris said the 4473 forms stay with the gun dealers and are not submitted to any government agency. They are, however, available to law enforcement.
If a gun dealer goes out of business, the 4473 forms are stored in an ATF warehouse, he said.
Although the OSBI made public that a .40-caliber weapon was used in the slayings, it is not identifying the caliber of the other gun used.
Brown would not say whether voluntary test firings would be held for the other weapon.
Authorities believe the killers are from the Weleetka area, given the remote location of the girls' slayings.
They said the killers had to be familiar with the area — N. 3890 Road (County Line Road) north of Coleman Road, about four miles northeast of Weleetka.
Skyla was visiting Taylor at her home when they decided to go for a walk that Sunday afternoon.
They walked north from Taylor's home along County Line Road to the Bad Creek bridge, a half-mile away.
Investigators said the two had made it to the bridge and were returning to Taylor's home when they were gunned down.
Their bodies were found in a shallow roadside ditch, less than 1,000 feet from the Placker home. They were found about 30 minutes after they had left for the walk.
Autopsy reports on the girls showed they had been shot a total of 13 times.
Skyla, the youngest, was shot eight times, and she suffered the most .40-caliber bullet wounds.
Authorities noted that each of the girls was shot with two weapons.
The medical examiner recovered spent bullets from their bodies and described them as small- and medium-sized.
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I know there's going to be some who disagree, and I understand that what the police did was a long shot, but as far as I'm concerned, I'd be first in line to have them test fire my gun if it in any way possible helped catch the sick SOB that did that.
I know it's probably some government plot to steal our guns, but I don't care, somethings are worth the risk.
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+10
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I know there's going to be some who disagree, and I understand that what the police did was a long shot, but as far as I'm concerned, I'd be first in line to have them test fire my gun if it in any way possible helped catch the sick SOB that did that.
I know it's probably some government plot to steal our guns, but I don't care, somethings are worth the risk.
That's my problem with it. If you don't come in your a suspect/ potential suspect. What are you going to do if they don't?
Pull their CCW? What if they don't have one? Tap their phones?
In a hit & run you may ask people with the same type car where they were on the day of the crime IF you have a reason to think they were in the area. You don't tell everybody with a Toyota to them to bring the vehicle to the station so you can collect evidence from it. Then go get warrents for those that don't?
I do agree with you Unique, catch and juice the folks that kill ed the girls.
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According to the article, there were 60 owners of .40 cal guns in the area, and yes, they were all going to be check out, that's what I would do if I were a cop. But that takes a lot of time, so why not help? You're going to get checked out anyway.
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Slippery slope of "Big Brother" and doing the right thing. In Wash DC, they will invite you down to the station, register your firearm and "fire" it, almost like giving your fingerprints for committing no crime, "just to have on file" type thing.
I just have a reluctance to willingly furnish private property and aspects of my private life to any gov't.
If I get pulled over 2 weeks later for a burned out taillight, will there be an asterisk next to my name as a "gun owner".
I'm all against getting the bastard that did this, but it could set a precedent for other gun crimes I didn't commit.
If I buy a .357 at a gun show, and that night someone is assaulted and shot with a .357 across town, should I be sent a letter to come down and "furnish" a fired round?
I'm sorry, it seems dangerous.
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I'm assuming you're all familiar with Nazi Germany, and hopefully with the movie Red Dawn. Registration eventually leads to confiscation.
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I'm assuming you're all familiar with Nazi Germany, and hopefully with the movie Red Dawn. Registration eventually leads to confiscation.
And "official" knowledge of your firearm is the first step toward registration, if not actual registration itself.
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"there were 60 owners of .40 cal guns in the area, and yes, they were all going to be check out"
No there were 60 folks who had purchased or transfered .40 caliber guns that they had records for.
Anyone who moved into the area who already had the firearm would not be in the records.
Anyone who had a gun illegally would not be in the records.
By the way Mrs Ratcatcher 55 said she would take my gun down for testing if I didn't. So much for my position.
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Slippery slope of "Big Brother" and doing the right thing. In Wash DC, they will invite you down to the station, register your firearm and "fire" it, almost like giving your fingerprints for committing no crime, "just to have on file" type thing.
I just have a reluctance to willingly furnish private property and aspects of my private life to any gov't.
If I get pulled over 2 weeks later for a burned out taillight, will there be an asterisk next to my name as a "gun owner".
I'm all against getting the bastard that did this, but it could set a precedent for other gun crimes I didn't commit.
If I buy a .357 at a gun show, and that night someone is assaulted and shot with a .357 across town, should I be sent a letter to come down and "furnish" a fired round?
I'm sorry, it seems dangerous.
I would have to agree with twyacht. Here in Holland the police have started with taking DNA samples from large groups of men in a larger area where there has been a serious sex offense (usually with the victim being murdered during or after the incident) to "support and further" their investigation. As of yet, neither of such DNA collecting actions have ever shown positive any result what so ever, other then providing the authorities with a DNA sample of an innocent man, to be used for, yeah, well, for what? Future cases? A database? Previous cases?
Nobody really knows how the authorities handle such "evidence", how it is stored, where, why and who controls it.
Now they start talking about making such large random tests a standard procedure and trust me, soon anyone who won't participate is a suspect.
Ocin.
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"there were 60 owners of .40 cal guns in the area, and yes, they were all going to be check out"
No there were 60 folks who had purchased or transfered .40 caliber guns that they had records for.
Anyone who moved into the area who already had the firearm would not be in the records.
Anyone who had a gun illegally would not be in the records.
By the way Mrs Ratcatcher 55 said she would take my gun down for testing if I didn't. So much for my position.
Thank you Mrs. Ratcatcher55.
It's not that I don't understand, or for the most part agree with you and the other posters,it's just that "what iffing" while in moderation is good and keeps us alive, can also immobilize us. Maybe it won't do any good, maybe the government will do something bad with the information, or maybe one of the people who didn't take his/her gun in was the shooter and those who did just narrowed down the investigation.
I think there are times, like this one, when you have to do what you think is the right thing and not worry about the "what ifs".
You can never predict the consequences or repercussions of your actions, and yes, you can think you're doing the right thing and be totally wrong.
It's just me, I'd rather act and be wrong than play it safe and do nothing.
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ALWAY'S ready to help catch a DIRT BAG like that. Slippery slope indeed.
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"It's just me, I'd rather act and be wrong than play it safe and do nothing."
I hear you.
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I don't like the idea of being told "Bring your pistol down and prove your innocence" this flies in the face of the constitutional assumption of innocence until proven guilty, I also don't approve of those sort of lowlifes in particular, so I would probably have shown up. The only WRONG decision is NO decision.
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I'm a little uncomfortable w where this is coming from, and why, as well as where it might go, and why.
It could help, but it's not very likely.
The gun and shooter may not be local. The gun may have been bought, sold, traded, or stolen outside the local area or time window. What if it's somebody who used an extra Glock .40 bbl in a Glock 357? Maybe everybody in the country who sells 40 bbls for Glocks should check their records and voluntarily give the names to the local law?
Taking your gun in does not necessarily help them catch the right bad guy unless you did it and you bring your gun in, it just helps them eliminate a lot of the wrong good guys they shouldn't even be looking at in the first place w/o probable cause.
If the girls had been molested, or drugs had ben found at the scene, would every swinging Tom, Dick, and Harry in the county be asked to voluntarily spit, piss, or jerk off in a cup?
Imagine how usefull it would be to LE if eveybody underwent periodic drug testing, and everybody had blood, hair, fingerprint, and DNA samples on file!? We all did that voluntarily?
Imagine how usefull it would be if every time there is a burglary or robbery, we all volunteered to let 'em come in and look around the place, go thorough our pockets, and check our bank accounts just to be sure we don't have the loot...
So, are you going to volunteer all that info for every crime just in case? Just the serious cases? Why not?
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MikeO. It's not that I disagree with you. It's just that I think you have to make decisions on a case by case basis, and temper the "what ifs" with reality.
In this specific case, I think it's worth the risk, the next one? I'll decide then.
I have a problem with "what ifs". Mainly that they don't have to be realistic or fair, they are constructed by the author to prove his/her case.
Here is an example that is totally unfair and wrong of me to use, and I apologize in advance for using it;
"What if" it was your daughter?
PLEASE don't take that as a personal shot, I used it for two reasons, one, I have a problem with "what ifs" and second, we get so concerned with protecting our guns, we tend to forget there are other people in this world who are not after our guns and may sometime need our help. I just can't cover my ears and chant "no, no, no"
I'm heading out for the weekend, so I'll miss where this post goes
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Yep, the slope can get silly as well as slippery...
My daughter? I'll ask, but if you refuse I am not gonna lynch you.
I'm not just worried about my guns, I am worried about the rest of my civil rights too. That's why we have laws, courts, and cops: to cover the what if's and temper the nanny/vigilante reflex and protect you from me and the govt, and me from you and the govt. Registering your gun/case can be handy. So can registering your fingerprints and DNA.
I do not have a problem w them asking. I have a problem w the reaction to any refusal to volunteer info not required by law w/o probable cause.
They can ask, and I may give. If I refuse, they better have more than that to force the issue/make me a "person of interest" or it's going to cost them.
All that's necessary for evil to win is for good people to do nothing. Or the wrong thing for the right reason, or the right thing for the wrong reason?
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It's just that I think you have to make decisions on a case by case basis, and temper the "what ifs" with reality.
In this specific case, I think it's worth the risk, the next one? I'll decide then.
There's the problem...
You may not have any choice the next time.
If you give away your rights, you don't be shocked when you don't have them anymore.
We've seen this movie....
Did they get warrants for this?
How would you get a warrant saying that this gun came from this area rather than from TimBucToo, and we want to see all your 4473s???
Did the FFL's give up the information voluntarily?
LEO walks into gun shop and says "Give me list of everyone who owns a Glock 40."
From what time frame?? The FFL is going to give the particulars of any Glock 40 they have seen, smelled or heard since introduction?
No FFL I know is just going to give out ANYTHING without a solid paper trail supporting it.
So where did this list of names come from?
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There is probably a better way for the .40 owners to prove their innocence. Seems like we have gone from presumption of innocence to a presumption of gulit with the suspect having to prove innocence. Cases of sexual harrazment and now sexual crimes a person is considered guilty until proven innocent. But then again we no longer have a justice system but rather a legal system that is geared towards definitions of words and terms.
Hope they find whoever committed those acts and fry them or put them to sleep humanely like they did the girls.
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Mayve I'm being naive, but when has a criminal, let alone one who really is the "scum of the earth" ever adhered to ANY gun law?
This sounds like a back door attempt to get gun info on the "good" guys.
No punk murderer is going to "go downtown" and submit to any test. He'll end up on America's Most Wanted, and hopefully resist and "taken care of" by LEO's.
It opens up constitutional arguments, and my right as a law abiding civilian to PRIVACY!
Citizens who want to voluntarily furnish info, fine. Knowing I'm innocent, they can come and talk to me.
I can see the headlines now; "Gang related shooting using a 9mm, all 9mm owners within 5 miles please report to the nearest LEO office. The ATF has your records and knows who you are." Post it on the coffee shops and, grocery stores, and 6 o'clock news.
See how BAD it could get.? Some in this country want this to happen. IMHO, (They can f*** off).
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I just really hate this part of the government. It is like the old saying that we all heard from a teacher in school, empty your pockets, if you have nothing to hide, what is the problem? The problem is that this is a very left handed approach to a violation of the 14th amendment. No they didn't force anyone to do anything, but this sounds like some bureacrats idea of a good way to eliminate certain weapons from consideration, and then go after the ones that did not "volunteer".
Why would someone volunteer their weapon for inspection and firing, ballistics testing, etc when you knew where your weapon was and that you were not involved and neither was your weapon? Can you believe that 40 of 60 weapons were unaccounted for by their owners?
The ballistics testing results are a permanent part of the police record into the investigation of these murders. The results of the tests will certainly stay in the police dept computers from now on.
Now consider this. You have volunterred your weapon for testing and storage of the records. a few years down the road, you decide to buy whatever new "toy" they have come up with and sell your current .40 cal weapon to someone privately. They in turn sell the weapon, lose it, or have it stolen and then it is used in a crime with evidence left at the scene. You are suspect number one. You better be able to prove when and to whom you sold it. If the buyer perhaps gave you a fake name, and cannot be located, you are still suspect number one.
Just my .02
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They can ask, and I may give. If I refuse, they better have more than that to force the issue/make me a "person of interest" or it's going to cost them.
Sadly, no it won't. Lots of threads here have gone through this idea, from Katrina and the LEOs who illegally enhanced their personal collections - er, illegally confiscated arms that went missing, to Greensburg, KS to pick one - there are never any repercussions to the LEOs involved - not one that I have ever heard. They get to break the law, and the excuse is well, they're just doing their jobs or following orders. Didn't we hang Germans after WWII for using that same excuse for abusing the laws?
So even if you win, the taxpayers pay the bill, not the LEOs.
According to the reports I read, the only "person of interest" is an Indian, and the reservations down there are big and empty and the people not at all willing to help the LEOs in their quest. Can't say as I blame them.
Don't get me wrong, I want to fry this or these asshole(s) who did this as much as anyone else, slowly and painfully. This is not the way to go about finding them, though, not at all.
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Sadly, no it won't. So even if you win, the taxpayers pay the bill, not the LEOs.
Good point.
The FBI did not just pay over $5 million to the wrong person of interest in the anthrax mailing case, we all did.
I was a bit sloppy w the use of "them".
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Don't get me wrong, I want to fry this or these asshole(s) who did this as much as anyone else, slowly and painfully. This is not the way to go about finding them, though, not at all.
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+1
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I went all the way back and read the article again. I'm sure that being typical media report that there is something missing, but does this smack of lazy police work to anyone else? What else are they doing to track this person or people down? To me it sounds like picking up the yellow pages, looking up "Felons on the Loose" and calling around for the best offer.
Has anyone checked with their attorney concerning the wisdom of entering into this testing? I used to think that if you did nothing wrong that there was nothing wrong with talking to investigators. I have learned my lesson, fortunately at the expense of others, that context and continuity are very important. What would professional advice be on entering into this testing, giving history of the gun and/or ammo, storage of firearm, and purpose of owning said gun.
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Based on the wide spread attention given to the .40 cal. My nasty suspicious mind is telling me their best leads involve the OTHER gun used.
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Has anyone checked with their attorney concerning the wisdom of entering into this testing? I used to think that if you did nothing wrong that there was nothing wrong with talking to investigators. I have learned my lesson, fortunately at the expense of others, that context and continuity are very important. What would professional advice be on entering into this testing, giving history of the gun and/or ammo, storage of firearm, and purpose of owning said gun.
Good point, I had not considered that. Suppose that gun you bought at the local pawnshop had been used, oh, say 3 owners ago in a felony. Guess what? The LEOs cross-check it and find a match. You are now a "person of interest" in that felony until you can prove otherwise. Since it is a gun used in a crime, you lose it and the $$$ you spent on it - evidence in the old crime, don't you know.