The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Herknav on February 22, 2016, 09:38:53 AM
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I'm looking for a really nice .22 rifle as a gift for a young relative. The relative has only been shooting a handful of times, but he seems to like it. I'm moving closer to him, and we'll be able to shoot a lot more. The top contenders in my mind are:
Browning SA-22 takedown
10/22 takedown
Marlin 39A
I want to go with the Browning, because it seems more like an heirloom. On the other hand, the 10/22 can be made rather easily into anything he later decides; however, it's not anything special. I'm interested in the thoughts of the group.
Thanks in advance,
Herk
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If you are looking toward an heirloom starting plinker. Go take a look at the used pump actions. They are becoming more available in recent years, and while they may cost more than those you listed, they are an easy gun to use and learn on, and they will have more future interest than a modern gun. After that there are many $225 - $375 utility guns they can use for many decades while the first carries special memories and is passed down through the generations.
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10/22's are not really what you would want to consider "heirloom" quality. Too much Aluminum and plastic. I would recommend the Marlin 39A. I bought one new back in 2000. They were still Marlin back then, not "Remlin". I'm not saying the new Remington made Marlins are "bad". Just be sure to carefully examine it before laying down the cash. I've seen a few where the wood to metal fit was horrible.
If you can find a nice used JM serial 39A, that would be the better option. They can run as much as a new one, and they don't come up for sale very often. People who have them tend to hang on to them for much the same reason you are considering one. They're nice!
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I would look at cz
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+1 on the Marlin 39,I have 2 of them and they'll be the last of all my guns that I would sell if it ever came to that.
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Valquartsen? More money than you probably want to spend but any model would be considered Heirloom quality to me.
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My dad and one of my brothers both had Browning .22s but my dad later bought a 10/22 because of the detachable magazine. I wouldn't buy a semi-automatic without one. I don't know if they're heirloom quality but they will last a lifetime.
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I agree with TAB on this one. A good CZ bolt rimfire is very hard to beat. My best bud has one, and it will put 5 shots in a dime sized hole at 50 yards. Trigger is a bit 'firm', but that'll work out over time.
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I'd go for accurate. Nothing frustrates a new/young shooter more than not to be able to hit their target even when they're doing everything right.
Easy of manipulation is second on my list. The Chipmunk rifle (not that you were considering them) are hard to cock and very frustrating for youth. Make sure it's easy for them to load, cock and shoot.
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Thanks for the inputs, guys. I'm mulling over your inputs. Some thoughts/clarifications/questions:
- Can old slide actions (e.g. Win 62 or Rem 12C) handle modern .22 LR ammo, or are they best limited to .22 Shorts?
- The SA-22 design is over 100 years old, so it's not exactly new. :)
- The reason the 10/22 was thrown in is because I have an extremely utilitarian friend who shares my distopian view of the future. He suggested the 10/22 because of its versatility as a tool.
- Thanks for the tip on Model 39A serial #'s. I'm balancing the desire to get the kid a brand-new rifle versus staying away from Para Remlin.
- Were I to go used, a 9422 is definitely under consideration.
- Any specific recommendations on the CZ? The 452 Lux is pretty nice looking. I'd go for a LH model, though, because he RH/left-eye dominant.
- Is there any advantage to going with the CZ 452 American? It looks to be scope-only, which I don't really want.
Thanks for all the recommendations,
Herk
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the Lux is what my friend has. Were I in the market for a .22LR......................
The magazine is 5 rounds. Do yourself/hi a favor and buy at least one more. Not cheap either, but then again, this is one very high quality rifle.
I have no information/opinion on the others mentioned.
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High priced 9422's on Gunbroker. I have one and like it. You can get a Golden Boy brass model $2k but that's a lot of green for a 22.
If you want to spend the money to get a "Gentleman's Rifle" that's heirloom, I'd go with either of the following:
A Remington 552 Speedmaster semi
http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-552-speedmaster (http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-552-speedmaster)
or a
Remington 572 Fieldmaster pump
http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-572-fieldmaster (http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-572-fieldmaster)
Now, that having been said on a less expensive note the CZ 452 is a great "Gentleman's" gun. They've been replaced by the 455 (don't know the difference...did not know it happened until now) but have some 452's remaining in left hand.
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-455-fs-22-lr-5-rd-mag/ (http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-455-fs-22-lr-5-rd-mag/)
I like the 452 (455) in the Manlicher stock...that would be "heirloom" in my book. Mine is a 452 Manlicher in 17 HMR and though yes, the HMR is inherently more accurate than a 22LR, but my goodness this thing shoots bugholes at 50 yards with a hot barrel. Now, put together Manlicher, hot barrel and accuracy...quite a feat to have all that wood out there and maintain accuracy. I have gorgeous wood on mine...I'm sure the LUX is nicer though. Now...that's just mine but I'd buy another in a heartbeat.
I also have the Remington 552 and love it. My dad got his around 1961 or so and I still have it. It shoots great and shoots not only long rifles, but shorts and longs too. It's not as easy to clean as others.
Got a Marlin 39A...like it. I like it better than the diminutive 9422's. Depends on your definition of heirloom...if heirloom means "cowboy" then Marlin or if a "Gentlemans" look appeals go Remington or CZ. If you can find a Marlin 1895 in 22 Mag that would be nice...have one of those and it "feels" like a centerfire lever action...however the action needs to be watched look it up on the internet.
One other kink. A Winchester 1885 low wall. Have one in 17 HMR. Elegant, simple, light and a pleasure to handle. Also very accurate. Single shot but that's OK.
My 2 cents.
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CONJECTURE:
.22lr has been around a long time and I'd suspect the older guns are quite capable of handling modern day loadings. I think the SAAMI specs have pretty much been the same over the years. Another reason I think the older rifles can handle modern .22lr is I believe the older models were made sturdier than was necessary back in those days.
If in doubt then just stick with standard velocity lead ammo.
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Can old slide actions (e.g. Win 62 or Rem 12C) handle modern .22 LR ammo, or are they best limited to .22 Shorts?
They can handle anything that is stamped on the barrel, (short, long, or long rifle). However there were some gallery models that were designed for the old carnival shooting gallery's. They were limited to .22 Short ONLY.
I have a Rossi Model 62 that is a Winchester clone. It's beautifully made. (Mine is a Interarms gun). It will take .22 short, long, or long rifle interchangeably.
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I have an old Savage 1903 that I shoot modern rimfire through.. Other than a mucked up extractor that doesn't work well, I've never had a problem. The barrel on that old squirrel gun is pretty stout.
That gun has been in my possession for near 40 years and was bought new in 1908 by my grand daddy for about 8 bucks... It's an heirloom, literally!
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I had just seen some pump actions the morning you asked this question. They were all marker "s,l,lr" or equivalent fully spelled out. As long as you stay away from the "hyper velocity" you will be fine.
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I imagine (not a fact) that hyper velocity has about the same pressures, just uses lighter weight bullets.
Don't know why I didn't mention this before (actually it's because I'm getting old), you might mosey over to Rimfire Central and search their archives for information. It's a whole forum devoted to rimfire guns.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/ (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/)
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Heirloom certainly indicates something made well enough to be passed down, but I think it needs a little mystique, something that invites conversation like " Oh, Dad must be serious, He just pulled out the Winchester/Browning/Remington etc.. Tree Rat special! " Hopefully it has some special beauty to it, Fine wood, engraving, commemorative badge, or just so different, people want to know what it is! Aka - a commemorative lever gun, a Mannlicher full length stock, a Martini-Henry falling block, Military training rifle (a lot of cool ones out there ), genuine sporter rimfires, meant for adult physiques.
I love the older 39a, especially with the octagon barrel.
Browning BLR22 with an oil finish, due to the short lever throw, but the buttstock junction is easy to break!
Browning BPR22 - BAR22
Ruger international series (if you want a 10/22, this is it ) the 10/77 is kinda sexy too.
Remington (detachable magazine ) 541S or 541T, or ditto on the 552 Speedmaster (oil finish please)
Remington 513t
Winchester 52, 75 bolt action
Winchester 63 semi-auto
Holy grail of military trainers - Springfield 03 22lr .
H&R 65 Reising semi-auto, I dug the green phosphate finish.
Henry Yellow Boy
Martini-Henry single shot target guns are cool.
Weatherby Mark XXII, gorgeous, wished I'd never sold mine.
CZ 452 MANNLICHER
Anschutz 54 or 64 sporters, beautiful, very accurate $$$$
Kimber 82 $$$
Cooper $$$
Thompson Center Contender - short, elegant, accurate and can be converted to other calibers (almost impossible to open for youngsters and some adults) now, they are easily over 500 bucks!
Good luck, let's see it when you get it.
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It's the fact of the gift that makes it an heirloom.
The rest is just icing on the cake.
In my opinion, the best gift would be YOUR old .22 Then they can say," Dad, Granddad, etc, Passed this down to me, instead of just the kids memories, he's adding them to yours, building a family tradition.
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What Benny, my Savage 1903 didn't make the cut?
:)
It's OK, it's not particularly accurate, pretty or worth much and would not be worth the money spent to make it anything other than a 107 year old rifle... It was my grand dads, my dads and now it's mine... I'll give it to my daughter and she'll give it to her daughter. In another 60-70 years it might be worth the 8 bucks grand dad paid for it! ;)
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Ah, but Timothy, your 1903 already made the cut, since it passed the most important parts, can't buy family history, and it is different! Herknav is starting the process, the history. In my family there were 2 heirloom guns. A sporterized Springfield A303 and a Browning auto5. My Dad won the Springfield in a Super Bowl pot, and bought the A5 new in 1958. It wasn't until I started really getting into guns that I could appreciate the workmanship on the Springfield, I don't know the gunsmiths name, but the woodwork, the bluing, fit and finish were superb, I killed my first deer with it and I don't recall my Dad ever missing, he carried 2 twenty round boxes of Remington core-loct for over 10 years before he needed to replace them. 1 shot to check zero every season, the rest put meat on the table.
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Herk, As RH/Left eye dominate myself, let me put in my nickels worth.
Consider a Browning T-Bolt LH -- it is pretty, accurate and definitely heirloom quality. Get an extra magazine for it too. Magazines are available on line -- at least that's where I got two of them.
The Marlin 39A had been my go to .22 for about 40 years before I bought the BrowningT-Bolt. The Marlin is indeed heirloom quality as well -- no doubt about it. It is harder to clean than the T-Bolt though.
Lucky for my two grand sons, one for each. The youngest boy is RH/Left eye dominate according to my daughter. My son is too. I don't know about my three granddaughters they live in Chicagp area and are not interested in guns -- but their mother has her own shotgun and used to hunt and shoot skeet with me.
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I forgot one. (and then after I posted this I looked at Bill's thread above) The Browning T-Bolt. The trigger is not so great...I have an early model it may be better now. (Bill is right about the mags...I found them on sale at CDNN a couple of years ago and bought 2 or 3 because they are truly one of a kind)
http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/t-bolt.html (http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/t-bolt.html)
It also comes as an available left hand model an in 22 mag or 17 HMR.
High priced 9422's on Gunbroker. I have one and like it. You can get a Golden Boy brass model $2k but that's a lot of green for a 22.
If you want to spend the money to get a "Gentleman's Rifle" that's heirloom, I'd go with either of the following:
A Remington 552 Speedmaster semi
http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-552-speedmaster (http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-552-speedmaster)
or a
Remington 572 Fieldmaster pump
http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-572-fieldmaster (http://www.remington.com/rifles/rimfire/model-572-fieldmaster)
Now, that having been said on a less expensive note the CZ 452 is a great "Gentleman's" gun. They've been replaced by the 455 (don't know the difference...did not know it happened until now) but have some 452's remaining in left hand.
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-455-fs-22-lr-5-rd-mag/ (http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-455-fs-22-lr-5-rd-mag/)
I like the 452 (455) in the Manlicher stock...that would be "heirloom" in my book. Mine is a 452 Manlicher in 17 HMR and though yes, the HMR is inherently more accurate than a 22LR, but my goodness this thing shoots bugholes at 50 yards with a hot barrel. Now, put together Manlicher, hot barrel and accuracy...quite a feat to have all that wood out there and maintain accuracy. I have gorgeous wood on mine...I'm sure the LUX is nicer though. Now...that's just mine but I'd buy another in a heartbeat.
I also have the Remington 552 and love it. My dad got his around 1961 or so and I still have it. It shoots great and shoots not only long rifles, but shorts and longs too. It's not as easy to clean as others.
Got a Marlin 39A...like it. I like it better than the diminutive 9422's. Depends on your definition of heirloom...if heirloom means "cowboy" then Marlin or if a "Gentlemans" look appeals go Remington or CZ. If you can find a Marlin 1895 in 22 Mag that would be nice...have one of those and it "feels" like a centerfire lever action...however the action needs to be watched look it up on the internet.
One other kink. A Winchester 1885 low wall. Have one in 17 HMR. Elegant, simple, light and a pleasure to handle. Also very accurate. Single shot but that's OK.
My 2 cents.
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I forgot one. (and then after I posted this I looked at Bill's thread above) The Browning T-Bolt. The trigger is not so great...I have an early model it may be better now. (Bill is right about the mags...I found them on sale at CDNN a couple of years ago and bought 2 or 3 because they are truly one of a kind)
http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/t-bolt.html (http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/t-bolt.html)
It also comes as an available left hand model an in 22 mag or 17 HMR.
I must have a good one. The trigger on my T- Bolt LH and my buddy Denny's RH are both great. The groups at 50 yards are to die for they are so good -- all 5 shots touching or in one hole depending on the ammo --same with Denny's. Talking off the rest of course with a 4x Lepold scope. In these days of ammo shortage I was able to get some Thunderbolts that shoot really well for relatively cheap ammo. I am hording what little of the really good stuff I still have. :D
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Yes Bill, you have a good one. The T-bolt I own stays locked up because of the miserable trigger. For years I've hoped that Rifle Basix, Jard or Timney would make one but no go.
However...a good thing occurred because of this dialogue. I went back to another board to check the threads and see if there was a trigger to be had these days. The answer is no, but there was a December post on how to fix it. Which is here http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598731&page=4 (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598731&page=4)
I've something to do next weekend!
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Herknav, what did you end up with?