The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: alfsauve on April 11, 2016, 12:38:49 PM
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No this isn't a Want Ad or Classified.
Guy walks in to a gun store with his wife and says he's looking for a lady's gun. The clerk said, "Why? You aiming to shoot some ladies?"
Miss Kitty went with me to practice Friday and shot a variety of guns. She as much as said she'd come with me and shoot more if she found the right gun. One, ONE, of the things she objected to was the grip size. So I'm on a quest to find just the right gun.
She's always kept a Bulldog .44Spl by the bed, but rarely shoots it. It has for years been loaded with soft .44's that I reloaded. But I decided we needed to only use commercial self-defense ammo. So this is the first time she's shot it with such ammo and it kicks. HOWEVER, she likes the grip. Hates the trigger pull.
What we decided is she needs a semi-auto. A striker fired semi-auto. Love the way revolvers fit her hand but hates the pull and wants more capacity.
Long story short we're looking for the smallest circumference, semi-auto grip, as measured around where the third finger rests under the trigger guard. Most measurements are back of grip to trigger, but that's not we're measuring. So far in my house I have
G17 gen 4 5-1/2"
S&W M&P 5-1/2"
S&W Shield 5"
And just for reference:
Buckmark .22 5-5/16"
Ruger 22/45 5-1/8"
S&W 686 4-7/8"
S&W 60 4-1/4"
Anybody else have or can take measurements of their guns? Specifically striker fired 9mm. I'm thinking she'll be happy with something in the under 5" circumference. Shield nice but a little light weight and small. I've got to keep the recoil down. This isn't for concealed carry. Wonder what the smallest frame Sig 320 measures.
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Also, Glock now has a slim 9mm.
I don't have the measurement, but my d-i-l has a Ruger LC9 and loves it.....it has a small grip.
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If she's fond of (or more tolerant of) revolvers, why not go with a double action wheel gun. Hammer back and the trigger pull is equal to or less than a semi. Personally, I'd recommend almost any of the the Rossi .357 Mag wheel guns. You can alter the grip to fit anything your lovely lady might require. And, if .357 is a bit on the strong side, shoot .38 Specials. And, the price point is attractive.
FWIW
Crusader Rabbit
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TygqLGNnXJE
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Thanks, Crusader, but she shot my SW686 and my SW60, while the actions are much (MUCHO) better than the Bulldog, the kick of the 60 was just a tad more than she'd like. And yes she was shooting .38spl Critical Defense. While she likes revolvers, especially for their, just-pull-the-trigger manual of arms she's decided to vote in favor of more rounds.
And trying not to have to big a variety of ammo in the house, we're looking at 9mm's.
Just starting this quest. No hurry, she says. I'm think by the time school's out.
Thanks Peg Leg, I'll see what I can scare up on the LC9.
If anybody can measure some 9mm and report it would be appreciated. Just take a soft tape measure and wrap it around the grip where the 3rd finger would be just under the trigger guard.
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Go to the web site. You may be able to extrapolate the circumference based on available dimensions!
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Alf, Look into the Kahr K-9,right around 5 inches around the grip, all steel so helps with recoil,Double action striker fired Very accurate.Stay away from the polymer griped Kahrs not as smooth when retracting the slide.I think your Wife will be pleased with it.
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Don't forget the KelTec PF-9
Maybe a Tokarev , look for the Chinese (Norinco) model 213 , it was 9 mm Luger.
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Glock G43. I measure aprx. 4 7/8" at the narrow under the trigger guard and 5 1/4" at the largest palm swell near the magwell.
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Thanks for the measurements Danpat and Mejar.
Timothy, there's not enough info on the web sites to really tell. If a manufacturerer has any measurement it's usually trigger to back strap. That's not what I need to know.
Hmm. I might look at some of the C&Rs good thought.
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The new Hogue grip on my LCR IS 4-5/8" FYI!
I really like this little shooter. Pretty tame with the longer grip too, gives me a full grip with no problems concealing.
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Just be aware that while a small semi-auto makes a lot of sense, she has to be able to operate the slide. Remember that these little semi-autos have stiff springs. My wife shoots her Glock 17, no problem - but try as we might, we could not find a small semi-auto that worked for her - including my SR9c and LC9.
Eventually she settled on an LCR, which she carries with Hornady's "women's load". As you have already discovered, one advantage of a revolver is that you can choose any power load you wish.
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Timothy and Vince,
Thank you for the kind words about LCR. However that's going the wrong direction. She really wants more capacity.
As for operating the slide:
Miss Kitty had no trouble at the range with the G17. But even if she couldn't does she really need to? Yes, I understand to be well trained and versed would desireable. However, the given situation is that her gun is in a lockbox by her bed. Fully loaded, round in chamber and no manual safety, assuming she has a typical striker fired gun, all she needs to be able to do is point and shoot.
Even though she does enjoy shooting when she does go to the range, it's not her passion. She's not going to spend the time necessary to be proficient with the manual of arms. Don't mistake that however for not being able to shoot. She downed 5 plates in a row at 12yds last week with the Bulldog using SD ammo.
On the other hand, I keep hoping if she finds a gun she really enjoys shooting she might develop more interest. And, yes, she's fired many a .22lr but that doesn't spark her interest.
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OK, I haven't jumped into this but the FiveSeVen is what is on the other side of the bed from me.
It's easy to chamber the slide, proven effective for it's purpose and the rounds dissipate quickly on sheetrock; thus making it a safe choice for people beyond your walls. It holds 20 rounds and there are aftermarket mags going to 30 rounds.
It's light (1.6 lbs loaded), very controllable and a 50 round box of defensive ammo is under $20 many places. There is an ambidextrous safety, a place to mount a light and the edges are smooth to help keep from snagging it on something.
It is fairly expensive and it does have the safety you don't want. Also, the safety is up front where you trigger finger swipes it on or off as opposed to many safeties mounted further back...I like that feature. The grip is full sized and that seems to be an issue for you but the lack of heft and recoil make that issue, I think, less of an issue.
Just my 2 cents....and heck, they aren't even copper today...just zinc with copper plate.
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Or the Kel Tec PMR. 30 rds of 22mag.
Either one will keep you shooting long after the "kids are off your lawn
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I thought about the Kel Tec but didn't throw it out there.
On the positive side, the trigger on the one we have is better, I think, than the Five SeveN but the mag release is an issue and most 22 mag powder is for rifles so there is once heck of a fireball when you shoot it. The mag loads staggered like an AR which I like and I haven't had any issue with the rimfire rim canting and hanging up in the mag or failing to feed (something to ponder). It's also as accurate as can be.
That having been said, since you brought it up, it is light and controllable while being about 1/2 the cost with the self defense ammo (flashes less) coming in about the same price or just above the 5.7 x 28 ammo. I don't think the ammo is quite as effective out of the Kel Tec though...but you have a lot of it to throw.
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a ppk is a great ladies gun too.
my wife has a m1c next toe bed.
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My wife chose the bersa thunder 380. It is a hammer gun though. She loves it, it's been flawless through aprx 750 rounds, and it's accurate.
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My Dad also has and likes the Bersa Thunder, and he is NOT a semi auto fan.
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I love PPK's tab. Carried a /s for many years. But it's not overly pleasant to shoot.
I've got to get to the store and start measuring.
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Then skip the surplus P64 . It's a nice PPK clone, but kicks like a mule considering the 9 x18 caliber.
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What about those 3rd gen lady smiths. They are a little heavy, but I know lots of people loved them for ccw and they are aboit 75% the size of the normal gun
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What about those 3rd gen lady smiths. They are a little heavy, but I know lots of people loved them for ccw and they are aboit 75% the size of the normal gun
I'll look at Lady Smiths, but that's the problem. She's not talking CCW, but BTB... Beside The Bed. The grip needs to fit her hand, but the gun doesn't need to be "small". So far my research show that searches for "single stack" are synonymous with CCW. What she wants is a full sized gun with a small grip. Not short, but small in circumference.
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I'll measure my Sig P6 and post it later. They're making the P225 again. Not a small frame but the grip is smaller.
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I'll look at Lady Smiths, but that's the problem. She's not talking CCW, but BTB... Beside The Bed. The grip needs to fit her hand, but the gun doesn't need to be "small". So far my research show that searches for "single stack" are synonymous with CCW. What she wants is a full sized gun with a small grip. Not short, but small in circumference.
This sounds to me like you need either a G19 or G17 with a good grip reduction. The G43 is out as it is definitely NOT a full size gun. It is a good concealed carry option for a 9mm but as expected, glock was to late to the party, and there are a few better options in that category. It still handles full power loads without being unmanageable.
My suggestion would be take the wife to the LGS and try out every pistol in her hand until she has that magic moment where it just feels right. Once you have that, it's time for the range. She will still need to practice/train. Without the shooting experience the bedside gun may run the risk of more harm than good. A gun that fits well and she is comfortable and experienced shooting will be much more effective.
Just my .02 and not an attempt to knock your wife's shooting prowess, she most likely is a better shot than I am. My wife is but don't tell her I said so.
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My Sig P6/P225 grip is 5-1/4" circumference, FYI!
Eight in the mag, one in the pipe.. Full size frame, about 27 oz.
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I like my ppks. It fits my hand and its fun to shoot. In .380 and .22.......
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Okay, I've made a list. Some guns, you good folks have mentioned are not current production, so you'll not see them on the list.
I think the grip circumference has got to be 5" or less, so some of these aren't going to make the cut. EXCEPT, buying a Glock and have the grip shaved might be an option.
It has to be striker fired, more than 6 rounds, and probably more than 25oz weight. No manual safety.
CZ P07
FN FNS
HK 2000
HK P09
Glock G17
Glock G26
Glock G43
Remington R51
Ruger American
Ruger SR9
Ruger SR9C
Sig P320 C
Springfield XDM 4.5
SW Shield
SW M&P
SW MP Comp
Walther PPS
Walther PPQ
Walther CCP
I'll be haunting the gun stores over the next month gathering measurements. I already have weight, barrel length and capacity from the web sites.
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I like my ppks. It fits my hand and its fun to shoot. In .380 and .22.......
Red,
I loved my PPK/s. Over the years I owned 3 of them in .380 and one in .22lr. However, they were not what I call "fun" to shoot. Of course these were either German or Gadsden made and didn't have the extended tang. They are out for Miss Kitty because of the DA/SA and because they are .380acp. Nothing against .380 in general, I'm just limiting the calibers I stock. Simplifying life.
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Got by the range and did some comparisons. Of course they didn't have every model so I've still got some holes. Disappointed in the Sig 320 as it was a full 5.5". Same with the Ruger SR9 and 9c. However there was one bright spot I'd overlooked and it was the SA XD-s 4. With their extended magazine it'll take 10 rounds and has a grip circumference of 5.25" would love it smaller but for right now it's the winner.
So to review, the requirements are: 9mm, striker fired, no safety-if possible, 10 rounds minimum, smallest grip circumference measured under the trigger guard, full sized barrel/slide desired.
(The darkened ones are for comparison and reference not actually in running. Typo: It's XD-s 4, not 4.5)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-jLVzqCT/0/L/Single%20Stack%20Comparison-L.jpg)
UPDATES:
4/24 - Added note and corrected S&W M&P size.
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Oh and yes, I realize these are not all single stacks, per se. I'm just searching for a gun my wife will like which means as small a grip as possible.
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I haven't been following this one as close as I should, but that has never stopped me from jumping in:
Looking at your list I will give a plug for the S&W M&P. Our son has very small hands, and he loved the feel of mine, and I was amazed, SHOCKED, at how well he handled and fired it the first time he picked it up ... And he was a brand new handgun shooter at the time! He liked it so much that as soon as his wife gave me the ok to take him gun shopping I gave it to him for a Christmas gift and bought him a safe and some other items right away.
As for the mention of operating the slide:
If Kitty can hold a coffee cup or pencil to write, she can be taught to rack a slide even if she does not have the pull strength. It is simply a matter of focusing on holding the slide tightly, and pushing the frame forward. Amazing how pushing with the strong hand fixes not being able to pull with the weak.
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You know I didn't have my M&P at the range that day, so no she hasn't fired it. Maybe the next trip.
I see I have another error, I have the circumference backwards between the shield and the M&P. Hmm. Must go down stairs are re-verify. (Can you "re" verify something, or is it just "verify again"?) If the M&P really is 5" it might be the ticket. 15+ rounds and all.
Don't misunderstand. Miss Kitty is no wimp. She has no problem racking the slide. She also understands how semi's and revolvers work. No it's not a strength or technique issue. From a mental stand point, she knows how to make a gun fire. What she not willing to do is become proficient at the manual of arms. She's not willing to practice so that the manual of arms becomes instinctive. If she's ever in a SD situation she will have the ammo that's in the gun, that's all. And she knows this, which is why she's wants to go from her 5 shot revolver to a semi with more rounds.
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I think the key in this is that she doesn't want to become or practice the manual of arms. That said, look at the S&W 929: Eight rounds of 9mm, revolver fix of just pulling trigger until it goes bang in a failure, and if she chooses to reload there are always moon clips. S&W 627 gives you the same in .38 spl, spl +P, and .357.
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Got both and I'll give her those options. We'll take them to the range next time when I get my 929 back from the smith. Problem is they're both expensive and the 929 I think is only available in 6" model with front weight/comp. I think she'd still rather the semi auto, but we'll see. I'd have to pay to have the Apex treatment though.
Side note about the 929, and my smithy agrees. 6" is just the wrong size. I want a 5" without the comp and he prefers 4". He's looking into substitute OTC barrels, specifically the 627 4" and 5" ones. Yes, they'd be a mil or two too big, but we could load .357 bullets in the 9mm cases. I suggested he ask S&W how much for a custom length. It's only money. ;)
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Updated chart back on page 3. Corrected the S&W M&P size.
XDS still appears the closest to what I want, so far, but the M&P is close.
Definitely got to let her shoot mine the next range visit.
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So if you're still following this thread, here's a thought.
I watched SUSA show about the indoor BUG matches. One competitor took a Sig 320 Carry grip and mounted a Compact barrel and slide on it. Then cut off the excess rail that stuck out. Now the 320 grip is the same circumference regardless, which is 5.5", but that got me to thinking.
How interchangeable are some other guns?
Glock? Springfield Armory?
Can I put a G19 barrel and slide on a G43 frame? Hm m m?
Inquiring minds are, well, curious.
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So this was in the news today. Maybe a candidate.
AVIDITY PD10
(http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/avidity_arms_PD10_D6A5278-660x440.jpg)
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/01/26/first-look-avidity-arms-pd10/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2016-04-30&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter (http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/01/26/first-look-avidity-arms-pd10/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2016-04-30&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter)
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Today was spent at Adventure Outdoors (Smyrna, GA). Well at least an hour. Numerous measurements taken, much to the amusement and understanding of the staff. Good news is they have over 300 guns in rental inventory for their range.
I looked at a lot of guns, including Kahr and Bersa. They had possibilities, but I had to cut off the list somewhere and one chop was by brand. Kahr, Bersa, Avidity, Taurus, etc. just aren't on the top of my list of companies to trust. While there were some attractive models, almost met all the specs ones, I'd just rather stick with more mainline makers.
Added to the list is the Glock 43 and 42. I've been trying to reduce the sheer number of calibers of ammo at home, but if she's happy with the 42 in .380 then so be it. Compromise somewhere. Both guns have, or should have soon, extended magazines. I know the 42 is gentle to shoot from personal experience.
So the short list and their measurements. I left the G17 on there just as a starting point. If this helps anyone else then I'm glad. I really wish I could talk to Sig. I know it would mean a wholly different magazine, but I'm thinking a much slimmer grip, say 4.75", could open a significant market. And think that it could be mated with full size, carry or compact slide/barrel.
Next step is to take her to Adv Out range, we'll aim (pun intended) for June when school's out, and try as many as she has patience to try. Any that the counter person recommends or any that catch her eye will also be welcomed.
Here's the Short List.
(https://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-6NkpwNr/0/L/Single%20Stack%20Comparison%20Short%20List-L.jpg)
And for reference here's the whole list. Please forgive inconsistencies or errors. I'll straighten them out as discovered.
(https://sauve.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-jLVzqCT/0/L/Single%20Stack%20Comparison-L.jpg)