The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: alfsauve on September 30, 2016, 04:17:38 PM
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While I've never had a light strike or squib in competition, I decided that paying $100+ to enter a competition I didn't want to risk a problem so I want to use commercial ammo in the bigger competitions.
For revolver shooters it's down right difficult to make Power Factor with commercial ammo. It's why the PF for IDPA is only 105 for revolvers.
The latest issue of Front Sight has the stats from the Revolver Nationals (and the Single Stack). Cool to learn what the "pros" are doing. 98% use Handloads. Of the 4% factory ammo it's evenly divided between Armscor, Federal & Precision Delta. For .38spl I've narrowed it down to 4 brands who possibly might make PF in ICORE.
Speer Lawman +P 158gr TMJ
Fiocchi +P 158gr (38G) FMJ
Seller & Bellot +P 158gr
Armscor 158gr FMJ
Looks like, if I make it to IRC, I'll be shooting my reloads.
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Alf, Precision Delta is the official ammo of USPSA! They supposedly load to power factor with some to spare and ship to the match you are attending. I'm not sure about revo ammo but haven't heard any complaints otherwise. Also, Atlanta Arms supposedly loads to power factor. I believe both supply small samples to so you can test it in your pistol.
FYI FWIW
Richard
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Alf... as you know, the advantage of hand loads is the ability to custom tailor your loads... other than a M25 for bowling pins, I have not shot a revolver much... but made the decision early on that all of my competition firearms had to go bang every time... I may have wanted to adjust the strain screw to the lightest double action pull possible on a wheel gun, or put the lightest hammer springs in the AR, but going bank is the top priority...by hand loading you control the components, mainly the primer cup sensitivity...accuracy ranks second for me.. long bearing surface (heavier) .35 caliber bullets have traditionally shot more accurately than lighter bullets with less bearing surface....I've always liked the ball process Winchester powders that do not burn the base of the bullets ,making them less accurate.. I'd suggest a half way step... buy brand new brass (make sure the firing pin hole is there) for your loads in major competition...not sure what bullet you like
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Atlanta Arms will only make PF for IDPA.
Precision Delta doesn't list velocities AND they only talk about the .38spl in terms of PPC not ICORE or USPSA, so I'm suspicious. Wish I could just buy 50 rds locally.
I'm thinking Armscor may be the be the best bet. Hopefully be testing it on Friday.
Some By-The-By's
For revolver:
USPSA is 125
IDPA is 105
Everybody else is 120 (NRA-AP, Steel, ICORE) EXCEPT:
GSSF which says use commercial ammo as long as it operates the gun.
PPC which says: (I love this)
Ammunition must be loaded to produce sufficient velocity to pass
through the target AND the backer.
I don't think they're talking anything but a cardboard or poly backer.
I think that's more stringent than Bullseye err Precision Pistol which appears that as long as it's safe and makes it to the target. Here's the Distinguished Revolver rules:
(e) Ammunition- Any safe .38 caliber ammunition using the 158
grain round nose or Semi-Wadcutter bullet only.
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Thanks for the tips, Les.
I will admit to one or two squibs over my lifetime of reloading. (All of them, for some reason, were in .45ACP.) I'm at the level where finishing every stage is an important thing for me. I'd just rather take that one worry out of a major competition. Or at least not have my ego bruised when it happen ;)
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What the heck is "power factor" and how the heck can commercial ammo beat to weak for caliber ?
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Tom... in the practical gun games... I'm most familiar with USPSA...the value you receive for each shot is dependent on (1) where the shot hits the target (there are 4 zones, A,B,C,D and scored 5,4,4,2 for major and 5, 3,3,1 for minor)... you are penalized 2x the value of the shot for a miss, and (2) the perceived incapacitating ability of the bullet you fire (major vs. minor)... in the early days a ballistic pendulum was shot at the beginning of a match... it had a protractor attached to a swinging arm, and was calibrated with a 230 hardball hit from a Commander and a 124 from a SW M39... if the tattle tale of the protractor from your shot went past the 230 mark, you were scored major... and you had to move the tattle tale past the 124 mark to be scored... minor... today a chronograph replaces the pendulum (shooting a piece of steel at about 3 yds produced little places on exposed skin with red liquid running out)... the velocity in fps x the bullet weight in grains divided by 1000 is the power factor... 165 for major, 125 for minor... for gamers like myself, I like to shoot a minimum velocity that comfortably makes the power factor I desire... today I shoot a 135 9mm at about 960fps, and claim minor... factory loads have have other agenda
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Alf, you might also want to try Freedom Munitions.
Richard
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Thanks Les.
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Tom,
Les, gave an excellent in-depth explanation here's my take.
Bullseye shooters use wimpy loads, think the classic 148gr target load for .38spl traveling at 700fps. Hardly any recoil. Practical shooters decided to up the ante and insist on some minimum "power" which is, well, practical. You can go to Bullseye and evidently PPC, with loads that barely make it to the target, but USPSA, IDPA, etc insist your loads be more like real life.
They chose to use Momentum as the measurement. Momentum = mass x velocity. In the metric system the standard is Kg*Meters/sec. And in imperial it was lb*feet/sec. Well those don't exactly fit our small bullets and high velocities. So they chose to use the weight of the bullet in grains times the velocity in feet/second. But even that produces a rather large number so they divided it by 1,000 to give it a more practical, easy to use value. So a 125gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1,000 fps has a Power Factor of 125. Typical .22lr is around 40ish. Bullseye 148 grain around 100. Typical 9mm around 130ish. .44mag ~280. And my .357 Maximum was over 300. YMMV.
An interesting aside. When Elgin Gates laid down the principles for IHMSA (handgun silhouette) two of the things he wanted was to be practical (as in hunting) and he wanted as few of rules as possible. He wanted the shooters the freedom to experiment and develop with out artificial limitations. There are no PFs in IHMSA, but the round has to have the ability to knock a 50# ram off of its stand at 200m. Too light a bullet and it just shatters on impact. Too heavy a bullet and you feel like you're lobbing mortar rounds. A lot of good rounds got developed in the earlier days of that game.
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One of the games played by handloaders when making power factor is felt recoil. Light bullets, fast burning powder.
Increase bullet mass and you increase felt recoil, even when down loaded to same power factor;
Decrease bullet mass and you reduce felt recoil, but without increased velocity you lose power factor;
Decrease bullet mass, increase velocity, and tweak the powder burn rate, and you get power factor with less felt recoil.
This is why if you go to many of the practical shooting suppliers you will find recoil springs in all weights. As you mess with the above you also mess with the ability of a semi automatic to function reliably.
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Sorry for the delay but I've worked every day since I got back from IRC. I did get by the indoor range and do some testing.
This is Armscor 158 TMJ .38spl. They advertise it as being 900fps, which I feel is probably out of a locked breech barrel, not a revolver. At least not a 5" one, like I shoot.
I tested it before IRC and was getting high 700 to low 800fps. Easily making 120PF needed for ICORE. Got to IRC and my ammo was just below 750fps. I barely had one round, out of 6 that made it. Temperature differences were nil between my testing in Oct and the FL weather at IRC. IRC was using a LabRadar as I had been.
What I do know is the first 5 boxes I bought from Cabela's were packaged differently from the 10 boxes I got online. They were labeled the same so I didn't give it much thought. Evidently there is was a difference. Sadly, to save space I had mixed all of the original ammo with the newer ammo in a baggie.
Today I took the bag and grabbing random handfuls ran a test over the LabRadar. Now the bag was roughly half and half. Here's what I got. 12 of the 25 rounds were below 120PF. Of course, what I took on the range at IRC was all from the newer slower batch.
25 Rounds 686 5"
Stats - Average 749.7 fps
Stats - Highest 816 fps
Stats - Lowest 634 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 182 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 43 fps
Vel PF
702 110
697 110
781 123
763 120
810 127
788 124
773 122
816 128
733 115
634 100
777 122
774 122
753 118
776 122
680 107
779 123
725 114
747 118
780 123
715 112
774 122
713 112
784 123
742 117
727 114
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That's a huge spread. I'd expect it to be a lot smaller even if they are from different lots.
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anecdotal... prior to shooting the my first Ft Benning 3 gun match in 2005 I purchased 1000 rounds of S&B 55 grain M193 for the match...this was NATO head stamp (cross inside circle) and tested exceptionally well at 400m, shooting several 5 shot groups under 4".... in spite of the need for good wind hold with the lighter bullet, I shot it for the 6 years I had the opportunity to shoot the match... even managed a 12th place stage finish in 2009 for the sniper stage...after the 2010 match I was getting to the bottom of the original order...I purchased an additional 1000 rounds of S&B M193 55 grain (without the NATO head stamp), and when tested, would not do better than 7" at 400m... I now rely on Australian Outback 69 Sierra Match King for anything over 200m... a lot can happen in the span of a couple of years... regards...
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Finally pulled the spreadsheets from the 686 4"
A little better but that could just be the mix of old/new rounds a grabbed in the bag.
Next test is with a virgin box of the newer lot box. Maybe be late next week. I've got a USPSA match on Saturday.
Vel PF
Stats - Average 769 121
Stats - Highest 830 131
Stats - Lowest 662 104
Stats - Ext. Sprd 168 27
Stats - Std. Dev 41 7
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Went to Cabela's and found the original Armscor ammo. Tested both this and the other lot's that I got.
The markings on the boxes are almost identical except: (Let's call them the Fast and the Slow)
UPC:
Fast 8 12285 02004 4
Slow 4 806015 500612
The Fast box is a little taller, almost like it was made for .357 length. It has an 1/8" piece of foam packing on the top to keep the .38spls from rattling about.
The logo on the Slow box say "precision" under the Armscore name. The Fast box has "USA" instead. And the Fast box also has the tag line: "Right on target/Right on the price." Also under the legaleze Fast say "Made in USA" and gives a MT address, while Slow says Marikina City Philippines. That must be the difference. Made in the USA are better.
Otherwise the ends are the same and the are both labeled. <star>38 SPECIAL/158 GR FULL METAL JACKET
Here's today's results. It's obvious that since I tested the FAST ones I thought no sweat making PF. But the bulk of the boxes I bought to take were of the SLOW variety. Quite a difference.
FAST FPS PF
Stats - Average 818 129
Stats - Highest 859 135
Stats - Lowest 799 126
Stats - Ext. Spread 60 9
Stats - Std. Dev 19 3
SLOW FPS PF
Stats - Average 717 113
Stats - Highest 780 123
Stats - Lowest 656 103
Stats - Ext. Spread 124 20
Stats - Std. Dev 40 6
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Gun-General/i-W6pTVTf/0/L/Armscor-L.png)
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I see the extreme spread and SD are both a hair over double on the slow rounds. That plus 100 FPS is quite a difference. I'm guessing their quality control wasn't as good.
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Yep. I'm guessing the USA are made to higher standard as well as a higher velocity
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Still searching for that perfect .38 Special to compete in ICORE with a Power Factor over 120. Forget USPSA, but then nobody should be shooting .38 Special anyway. 9mm 929 are the "in" gun there. Or if you are shooting a 627 in .357, you're probably loading your own Short Colt ammo.
So far, Armscor USA is it. Not only is it average about PF 125 in my gun, but the SD is tight!!!
Here's what I've tested so far with my S&W 686 SSR 5". I've had trouble finding Atl Arms & Ammo, but now have some rounds on order directly. Shipping is a killer.
Weight Brand PF
124 Reloads 130
130 Amer Eagle 110
158 Amer Eagle 120
158 Freedom 110
158 ArmscorUSA 125
158 ArmscorPre 113
132 PMC Bronze 105
130 Fiocchi 38A 110
There are many more brands, but most of the common ones, like Winchester white box, are commonly known to be in the PF110 range.
I still get a chuckle out of PPC rules.
NRA Rule Book <emphasis mine>
3.17 Ammunition: No high speed or Magnum
ammunition will be allowed. Ammunition must be
loaded to produce sufficient velocity to pass
through the target AND the backer. Shots that
do not pass through the target and the backer
will be scored as misses.
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Alf, Check out this company, They're new and look like they will work with you to get you what you want in ammo.
https://choiceammunition.com/
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They are a possibility. I'm not at the pro-level where I can afford custom made.
They do list a 125gr at 1050fps. I primarily want to use commercial ammo for the bigger shoots.
I really want Atlanta Arms to pan out. They're local and I SHOULD be able to pick it up without paying shipping.
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I only stopped at the puter to check a field map and wandered here. That is why I am not doing research for you. When traveling to matches I commonly went to Midway USA and almost always used MagTech. The rounds were reasonable price, consistent, and Midway had a great shipping program. I could fly to Arizona or Florida, and the ammunition would be waiting for me.
Not sure what MagTech has for power factor in .38spl right now or best shipping company vs. company, but that is my two cents.
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I check and the only one that would work would be Sellier & Bellot brand by MagTech, SB38P. Not to be confuse with MagTech's 38P. Cabela's and Midway don't carry it, though. It available from other on-line retailers like Able Ammo.
If I find a box I'll try it, but that'll be down the road.
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http://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/50-round-box-38-special-fmj-158-grain-sellier-bellot-ammo-sb38p
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Yeah. There are a number of on-line dealers (Able Ammo for one), but I'd just like to pick up 1 box locally and test.
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So Atlanta Arms and Ammo has let me down, also.
They advertise their 158gr FMJ as 880fps. BUT
10 rounds
High 699fps
Low 517
Avg 629 (power factor of 99)
Spread 178
SD 50.5
That PF doesn't event qualify for IDPA!
I know they make ammo for and sponsor many competitive shooters including AMU. BUT, those guys are mainly shooting 9mm, .40, .45 and .223. .38 Spl has become an oprhan child. Low velocity rounds sell well at the range, especially for those pocket revolvers. PPC and Bullseye just want the bullets to reach the target.
I'm headed to IRC with 500 rds of Armscor USA, 500 rds of reloads and probably 500 rds of the low power stuff just for fun.
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517 fps is a long way from 880. Any slower and the bullets would just fall out of the muzzle. ;) 699 isn't very close either. I would contact Atlanta Arms and Ammo and tell them their ammo is defective. I doubt you can get a refund but you can let them know why you're never going to buy it again, if you aren't going to.
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I was about to send a little note to Atlanta Arms but I can't find on their web site where they give a FPS for this load. They do give a velocity for the PPC stuff. I could have sworn last week I saw it said 800fps. That's why I ordered it. Maybe by tagging them on FB they updated their web page.
Oh well.
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I took a look too and didn't see the fps listed. Just out of curiosity I checked Detroit Bullet Works website to see what they had. They don't list .38 Special at all but I looked at their FAQs and found this. Do you load calibers other than what is on your website? Yes we do, we have dies for over 200 calibers please contact us for a quote about your specific caliber. That's got to be an expensive way to get what you need. I never used any of their ammo so I don't know how good it is, plus that's a long way to ship ammo.
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[To answer Frank's reply: I'm looking for OTC ammo, reasonably priced.)
YEAH TO SELLIER AND BELLOT
They claim a MV of 889fps out of a 7.5" test barrel. I need a 792fps out of my 5" 686 to comfortably compete in ICORE with a pf of 120.
Here's the results of testing today using S&B 158gr FMJ, SB38P, Prod Code V311032U
M60 3" 838fps 132pf
686 4" 827fps 130pf
686 5" 802fps 126pf
686 6" 843fps 133pf
This is not considered +P ammo, btw.
Testing out of a closed breech test barrel is probably best to give comparable results. Revolvers depending on the cylinder gap, the forcing cone shape and barrel dimensions can vary widely. I applaud them for publishing the details so that I could make a guess how it would do in my revolvers.
Of note, something I've known is that my 5" 686 doesn't build up the velocity of either my 3" or 4" guns.
Notice the 3" M60 almost rivals the 6" in velocity. Goes to show, with revolvers, that barrel length isn't the overall determining factor.
Now to AmmoSeek before the next sanctioned ICORE match.
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I'm glad you finally found some off the shelf ammo that meets your power factor needs. I haven't shot any S&B ammo but IIRC when I looked at some online, it sounded like it was good quality at a good price. I'm surprised that it's faster from the 3" barrel than it is from the 5".