The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: billt on January 21, 2017, 04:56:27 AM
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The military is adapting it.
"A military lawyer who made a presentation during the Industry Day noted that the United States is not a signatory to the Hague Conventions which outlawed the use of “dum-dum” and expanding bullets more than a century ago."
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/
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Even if we were we haven't fought any other signatory since May 1945.
Means we can also use shot guns, flame throwers, cluster bombs and land mines all of which are regulated by the HC
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It's about time. I don't know what they were waiting for.
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Just have to remember to fill the hollow point with Bacon grease.
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Someone made a gun lube with a pork grease additive...can't remember who it was but I like it.
Maybe someone can replace the plastic tips like are in Critical Defense with hog cartilage?
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Someone made a gun lube with a pork grease additive...can't remember who it was but I like it.
Maybe someone can replace the plastic tips like are in Critical Defense with hog cartilage?
One shot. One soul. http://www.silverbulletgunoil.net/ There used to be Jihawg ammo with bullets coated with pork infused paint but they went out of business.
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The military is adapting it.
"A military lawyer who made a presentation during the Industry Day noted that the United States is not a signatory to the Hague Conventions which outlawed the use of “dum-dum” and expanding bullets more than a century ago."
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/
The story is old, and the problem is, signatory or not, expanding are not permitted by the current international standards - and therefore we are highly unlikely to use them. One alternative could be a solid bullet shaped like the Ruger/Polycase projectile - but expanding bullets are a line the US military is unlikely to ever cross.
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Signed or not, when it comes to the type of ammunition used in war, the entire Hague Convention is born and bred on stupidity. It lacks common sense, and shows politicians were trying to pass, "feel good" legislation even back then. "Kinder, gentler bullets" are idiotic. 12 gauge shotguns, commonly called, "Trench Guns", loaded with 00 Buck have been a common weapon used in every war since WW I. (Possibly even before). The carnage they produce when used close in is devastating. Far worse than any hollow point 9 MM, or .308 soft point.
Even the wounds produced by a fragmented 5.56 MM round are much worse. There is no reason today for any of our armed forces to be using FMJ ammunition in handguns, or any other small arms for that matter. You use what makes the weapon the most effective. Police do on citizens. Why shouldn't the military on our foreign enemies? The whole thing reeks of stupidity. And shows what happens when politicians are allowed to operate beyond their very narrow scope. In this case, they put all 4 wheels in the ditch.
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The story is old, and the problem is, signatory or not, expanding are not permitted by the current international standards - and therefore we are highly unlikely to use them. One alternative could be a solid bullet shaped like the Ruger/Polycase projectile - but expanding bullets are a line the US military is unlikely to ever cross.
we use them now, mainly operators, but the US does use them. with the advancements in bullets, i see zero reason to not use them.
we still use land mines too, just ours are "smart" and time out.
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Bill is wrong, there is a very good, very basic reason for using FMJ, even more so now in the days of combat vests than in the days of cotton or wool uniforms.
PENETRATION.
Think about it, the same principles that apply in hunting apply in war.
Expanding bullets may be fine for thin skinned game like deer, lions, or antelope, but if you're going after thick skinned animals , like elephant, rhino, or buffalo, you use solids that will penetrate to the vitals.
we use them now, mainly operators, but the US does use them. with the advancements in bullets, i see zero reason to not use them.
we still use land mines too, just ours are "smart" and time out.
That was the big complaint about mines, they get laid out and mapped then that unit leaves and no one ever knows where they are again until they step on one. Princess Diana was big on the ones in Cambodia and Afghanistan where they are still blowing people up, but oogle the "red zone" in France, I would imagine parts of the former USSR are just as bad. they laid over a million just around Kursk.
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Don't snipers use hollow point match ammo in their rifles? I haven't heard anyone complaining about that.
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Gooks in Vietnam ran around shirtless. Towelheads in Iraq and Afghanistan wore little more than a thin layer of linen. High performance expanding pistol ammo would have been a better choice in either case. Same in the whole South Pacific Theater in WW II. Our guys were never even given the option.
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Just have to remember to fill the hollow point with Bacon grease.
I do so wish we had the equivalent of a like button!!! Like, Like, Like !!!!!!
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Don't snipers use hollow point match ammo in their rifles? I haven't heard anyone complaining about that.
"Open tip" as opposed to "hollow point".
That tripped me up.
It is the way it's built and/or purposed to improve accuracy. In the barrier blind SOST ammo the open tip is used to penetrate glass, etc. with less defection. That's not to say in the 62 grain MK318 MOD 0 / 5.56 SOST doesn't get a "boost" on target because of the open tip.
A friend of mine who is a trainer was actually in on trials for the SOST and uses it for deer hunting.
Just my 2 cents....
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Bill, time to throw away those Hollyweird DVD's.
The Japanese in the Pacific were equipped just like US troops, or any other army in the entire world.
In fact, people who were there claim some of their gear was better than ours.
What you say about "gooks" may have been occasionally true about the VC, (doubtful in a land of thorns and malaria, but possible) but after Feb 68 there was no VC there were only NVA, and again, they were equipped just like every other army in the world and again some of their gear was considered better than ours.
Do you want to gear up to fight the last war ?
Or would you prefer to be ready for whatever the FUTURE might hold ?
That requires bullets, including pistol caliber, that will penetrate light cover, like you know, brush, cuz we might possibly fight somewhere other than a freaking desert.
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Bill, time to throw away those Hollyweird DVD's.
The Japanese in the Pacific were equipped just like US troops, or any other army in the entire world.
In fact, people who were there claim some of their gear was better than ours.
What you say about "gooks" may have been occasionally true about the VC, (doubtful in a land of thorns and malaria, but possible) but after Feb 68 there was no VC there were only NVA, and again, they were equipped just like every other army in the world and again some of their gear was considered better than ours.
Do you want to gear up to fight the last war ?
Or would you prefer to be ready for whatever the FUTURE might hold ?
That requires bullets, including pistol caliber, that will penetrate light cover, like you know, brush, cuz we might possibly fight somewhere other than a freaking desert.
My point is how many battles have we fought in recent history, have been negatively effected by lack of penetration, or because the opponent wore body armor? Especially regarding handgun ammunition. Yeah, there were some in the Korean Conflict. But all of those were due to lack of power of the round itself. (.30 M1 Carbine round in Korea). Or else other small caliber, low powered rounds like the .38 Long Colt in the Moro Rebellion. But none of that had to do with defeating body armor. A bad round is a bad round. Even today.
Pistol calibers like the 9 MM have seen drastic man stopping improvement with modern expanding ammunition. There is no question of this. No pistol round will defeat modern Kevlar and Ceramic body armor regardless of the bullet used. So the question then becomes why use FMJ if it won't either? How many enemy soldiers in recent battles have escaped death or injury, because they were wearing body armor, or even heavy clothing?
It's no different with a cop shooting at a bad guy in Duluth, Minnesota in January with his service pistol. He's not going to use FMJ to get through Winter clothing. He'll use the same high performance, hollow point pistol ammunition a cop in Phoenix uses in June. In most every case that will be high performance, expanding ammunition of some type.
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Right off the top of my head I would say the failure of .45 sub guns to penetrate jungle growth in the Pacific, or the same problem with 5.56 in Vietnam.
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billt. I believe the now defunct KTM/KTW? round would defeat non ceramic body armor-Kevlar. That was the problem when it came out. It was called the cop killer even though it had never been used against a cop. I'm sure the technology is out there to reproduce that round and more.
FYI
Richard
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billt. I believe the now defunct KTM/KTW? round would defeat non ceramic body armor-Kevlar.
Richard
I remember those. Weren't they Teflon coated or some such?
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The teflon coating was to protect the barrel of the gun firing the round,had nothing to do with it's ability to go through a ballistic vest.
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The Teflon coating on KTW bullets cut down on ricochets. One of the creators said that was it's only purpose but it had to be easier on the gun barrels than solid brass or steel.