The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Sean LeMasters on March 19, 2017, 02:12:48 PM
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Maybe it's because I've been reading The Scout Rifle study that I've got bolt guns on the brain, but I've been thinking about the validity of a bolt gun for defense.
I'm mostly thinking of something to throw in the trunk as more of a get home gun than something to keep around as a home defense gun, but could serve double duty also.
My initial thoughts:
Main use is just to get home if it goes pear shaped and need to ditch the car. Stay on the move and not get pinned down. So something that will be stored in the car more than used.
I wont be invading Durkajihadastan so I don't know if I need the AR/AK capacity. More of a shoot and move not hunker down sort of capacity but a detachable mag would be good.
Light weight, easy to pack/sling/carry. I've been eyeing the small CZ actions but I don't know if I want the Mauser style action.
Caliber wise I'm thinking .223 or 7.63x39, both are readily available and the actions can be had smaller and lighter than the 308 class guns.
Optics in the 1x-4x range with a simple reticle, no Tactical Christmas Tree reticle, fast and simple is key.
The more I think about it I keep coming up with the thought of an urban/suburban scout rifle, smaller/lighter than what is being offered right now from the major manufactures under the Scout Rifle name.
Thoughts? Worth pursuing further? Just get an AR/AK and be done with it?
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Tom Grisham was reviewing a Thompson Center bolt gun with nice accoutrements for around 350 retail. Full float barrel, scope mounts, adjustable trigger, cheek pad, etc...
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If you do get a bolt gun get the 7.62x39 instead of the 5.56 NATO. It has a lot more power.
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I'm with Frank on the power. Then I got to thinking you are trying to get home so...what can you carry more ammo with and does/will that matter? 7.62 less affected by wind but does not shoot as flat. I'd rather take a deer with the little 7.62x39 with a body shot.
You can find 7.62 x 39 and 5.56 readily along the road. However, now that I'm almost awake and almost thinking how about a .243? Shoots dang flat, go with the 85 grain and it shoots 1,000 FPS faster than the 7.62 and outruns the 5.56 too. The 80-95 grain bullets outrun, barely, .223 Remington 55 grain...a lot more power and less drop.
Hmm. I'd go with .243 Winchester over 7.62x39 and the 5.56 if I had one bolt gun to get home on. It's more flexible going down to 55 grains and up to 100 grains. Zeroed with 95 grain Silvertips at 200 yards you are 2-1/2" low at 250 and 6-1/2" at 300 yards...essentially you hold dead on out to 300 yards with energy of 1,227 at 300 yards (606 with 6-3/4" drop for 55 gr .223 and 696 with 13-3/4" drop for 7.62) which is double the energy of the other two rounds.
At 500 yards your 38+ inches low with the 243, 43+ inches with the .223 and over 7' low with the 7.62x39 round.
I would be going 243...no doubt, 243....
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.243 isn't outside the range of what I'm thinking, and you do bring up a good point with the range and options of ammo, but the guns can get a bit heavier, and at that point why not just bump up to 308 in the same action? I have a Savage 243 with a medium-heavy 20" bbl on it that could be re-barreled to a shorter 308, but then I could also just get a Ruger Scout with the shorter bbl and detachable mag and backup iron sights. And while not impossible, taking a deer with it isn't high on the list of what is needed with this rifle. I work on the other side of town from where I live and was just thinking about getting through a suburban environment, not through rural areas or farmlands. 7.62x39 will still do that job very well.
And I just remembered that Ruger made (still makes?) the scout in 223 so that actually would tick most of the boxes on the list other than wanting a lighter weight rifle.
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In the end it's what you are also comfortable with mentally. For me I like the 243 in 55 grain ballistic silvertip. Sighted in at 250 yards (my favorite) it's pretty much a center of mass to 400 yards shooter. It may be a bit heavier in this gun as compared to a 223.
For me I'd carry the .243 with both 55 and 80-90 grain bullets or a .270 Winchester in 130 grain. Sighted at 250 yds the 270 is 14-1/2 inches low at 400 yards...easy in my mind to compensate for center of mass shots.
The 308 will be about 19-1/2 inches low at 400 yards....which I become mentally uncomfortable with. I'm better knowing there is 10-1/2 inches of drop in the 243 55 grain at 400 yards. Training and discipline would help break being uncomfortable with a snap shot from the 308 but it's hard to argue with 55 grain 243 ballistics for a quick center of mass aiming point.
All of this assuming you are trying to stay out of sight and may have to make quick center-of-mass shots. I still prefer the 243 55 grain in the pipe with a 80-90 grain to drop a deer along the way to grill. Aiming dead on to 400 yards is pretty powerful ju-ju in my mind with that 55 grain bullet. If you are comfortable with something else, say for instance a 30-30 for whatever reason, what you are confident in will probably result in your best performance when called upon to perform.
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http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/mvp-patrol/ (http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/mvp-patrol/)
take your pick, box fed, .308 or 5.56, common mag compatibility. I've only handled a couple of Mossberg bolt guns and thought they were a bit bulky but for your purpose they might fit.
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The .223 and 7.62x39mm are within 1 mm or each other in overall length and are available in bolt actions of appropriate length. The .243 and its parent case the .308 aren't even in the same neighborhood as the other 2. If you want a short action you have 2 choices and if you want a medium length action there are several choices including .308. The .308 would be widely available if you have to use this rifle after TSHTF. So would the .223 and 7.62x39. You just have to decide which action length you want. For maximum ammo availability you should have one of these 3 calibers. The .223 is the weakling of the bunch and the .308 is a longer heavier rifle. That's why I think the 7.62x39 would be the best choice.
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Disclaimer: I know what a scout rifle is, but I haven't studied them.
For the purposes you're describing, I would suggest building or buying an ultralight AR. Throw in 2 or 3 magazines and you should have an approximately 10lbs or less package including 90 rounds of ammo.
Here's my reasoning. You're planning for an urban environment. That's the one place that the military doesn't really complain about 5.56. You're probably going to be engaging at relatively close distances, sub 100 yds. The likelihood of bigger crowds or at least multiple targets at close range is greater in an urban environment. A couple of quick shots and move. (How fast can you work a bolt?)
If you were planning for a rural or maybe even suburban environment, I would be more open to a bolt gun. In that case, you may be at a greater distance, you probably have more cover, and there are likely less large groups. In that environment, take the one precise shot and move.
Under most cases, I don't see a reason to engage a target at several hundred yards. If you see the threat that far out, do your best to avoid it. You mentioned not wanting to get pended down. If they aren't engaging you at several hundred yards, avoid. If they are, you may be penned already.
With that said, if you like and want a bolt gun, get one and train. Just my thoughts. I'm no expert nor claim to be.
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I like the idea of a Scout Rifle, and its versatility and reliability. However, for what you describe I would lead to a semi-automatic. I believe a bolt gun would be a reasonable home defense gun, but for on the move fleeing or trying to get home the ease and speed on the move of a semi-auto would be my choice.
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Have to agree with mkm.
You are looking to prepare for "combat", not a survival outing.
I don't imagine any army equips combat troops with anything but an auto/semi-auto, save special function personnel
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http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/mvp-patrol/ (http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/mvp-patrol/)
take your pick, box fed, .308 or 5.56, common mag compatibility. I've only handled a couple of Mossberg bolt guns and thought they were a bit bulky but for your purpose they might fit.
I do like the Mossberg guns, they are making a really good bolt gun right now. And I did consider the 5.56 version but I have never heard anything about the durability of their flipper system to feed from an AR. It seems like it would be a breaking point and I would hate to have it go down when its needed. But it may work perfectly, I've never heard. And I think I heard somewhere that they wont accept P-Mags, but I may be mistaken.
But if the system works it would be a good option.
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What exactly defines the "Scout" concept?
Short barrel?
Stout cartridge?
Forward mounted scope?
The later seems to be the only thing new, or at least different. The others have been around for some time. I'm just not into the rather awkward, in my view, scope mounting. MY SCOUT RIFLE, is a .308 carbine length, bolt action, but with a traditional scope nearer the COG.
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The scout rifle is a class of general-purpose rifles defined and promoted by Jeff Cooper in the early 1980s.
These are typically bolt-action carbines chambered for .308 Winchester (or 7.62×51mm), less than 1 meter (40 inches) in length, and less than 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds) in weight, with iron and optical sights and fitted with practical slings (such as Ching slings) for shooting and carrying, and capable of hitting man-sized targets out to 450 meters without scopes. Typically they employ forward-mounted low-power long eye relief scopes or sights to afford easy access to the top of the rifle action for rapid reloading. Although the Steyr Scout is the only rifle Jeff Cooper has been personally involved with, Ruger, Savage, and several other gun makers now manufacture scout rifles that roughly match Cooper's specifications.
Cooper realized that rifles in the late 20th century differed little from those used by celebrated scouts such as Maj. Frederick Russell Burnham one hundred years before, and that advances in metallurgy, optics, and plastics could make the rifle a handy, light instrument "that will do a great many things equally well...". Cooper’s scout-rifle concept was largely influenced by the exploits of the scout Burnham in the Western United States and Africa and as such it is best suited to a man operating either alone or in a two or three man team
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I had a scout scope on a Marlin lever gun once and it worked well enough for me, but the options are so limited as to what is offered in a scout scope right now. And I would say that the forward scope mount isn't important if you factor in good quality detachable mags (with spares)
I'm leaning towards a low power (1x-4ish range) With as simple of a reticle as possible mounted over the reciever, QD mounts, and iron backup sights.
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after reading about Col Coopers Scout rifle concept, I made an attempt in the early 80s with a Mini14 and a Ranch Products mount on the gas block with a 2 1/2 power extended eye relief pistol scope... worked well at the time...there has been a tremendous improvement in the field of low power good eye relief scopes since then... unless you are going to use the power afforded a bolt action's strength I don't see the need for a bolt gun in the .25 caliber class... as others have commented, you can put together a lightweight AR15 platform for just over $400... YMMV
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That's my point Mike. Other than the forward mounted scope, what really defines a scout rifle? What's really different from any other bolt action?
I think it's these key points.
Bolt Action
Hard hitting caliber (.308 min)
Short and light (~10#)
Expanded magazine capacity. (more than 5)
But what I see, almost universally, is the forward mounted scope as the defining feature. I understand Cooper liked LER for the speed of a quick shot. I'm not convinced that should be "THE" feature.
But what I see is people forward mounting a scope on all sorts of platforms and saying, "Scout Rifle." I don't that qualifies. Would Cooper?
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Disclaimer: I know what a scout rifle is, but I haven't studied them.
For the purposes you're describing, I would suggest building or buying an ultralight AR. Throw in 2 or 3 magazines and you should have an approximately 10lbs or less package including 90 rounds of ammo.
Here's my reasoning. You're planning for an urban environment. That's the one place that the military doesn't really complain about 5.56. You're probably going to be engaging at relatively close distances, sub 100 yds. The likelihood of bigger crowds or at least multiple targets at close range is greater in an urban environment. A couple of quick shots and move. (How fast can you work a bolt?)
If you were planning for a rural or maybe even suburban environment, I would be more open to a bolt gun. In that case, you may be at a greater distance, you probably have more cover, and there are likely less large groups. In that environment, take the one precise shot and move.
Under most cases, I don't see a reason to engage a target at several hundred yards. If you see the threat that far out, do your best to avoid it. You mentioned not wanting to get pended down. If they aren't engaging you at several hundred yards, avoid. If they are, you may be penned already.
With that said, if you like and want a bolt gun, get one and train. Just my thoughts. I'm no expert nor claim to be.
+1
This would be my take as well, and is the very reason I built an AR pistol, as a light, get home in a bad situation truck-carry-gun up close and personal. I keep regular AR carbine for longer ranges and precision work.
Not bashing a bolt gun, their number one advantage is reliability, but there is a weakness or two. The primary weakness is round capacity, unless you buy one of the few (Mossberg) that will take AR style magazines.
Then follows rapid fire capability in a sticky situation.
I love bolt guns....but in today's world, with all the advances in ARs, anything you can do with a bolt action rifle you can do with an AR....and do it faster. And with multi-caliber choices, you are no longer relegated to just 5.56.
I am by no means trying to tell you not to buy a bolt gun if that is what you want....it's your money. ;D
JMHO, FWIW.
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So, Sean, what direction did you decide on?
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I echo the idea of a lightweight AR platform...if you want a 200m firearm, a full float .600" mid length gas pencil barrel will give you probably 3moa with 69grain SMK.... medium contour double that distance, and halves the moa.......add a folding stock adapter like a LAW unit, and you significantly reduce the length of a 16" and further with a pinned and welded 14.5" barrel.... and in defense of the "Christmas tree sight"- if you have not really used something like a 4x32 ACOG it is hard to appreciate its versatility... the lighted chevron of a TA31F works like a dot up close, but provides a precise aiming point at 100 and 200m... from 300 (the 300 line is the bottom width of the chevron's legs) on out the horizontal stadia lines subtend the width of a man's shoulders (19") at the indicated distance, allowing you to accurately range the target... just bracket the shoulders and shoot... the stadia lines subtend realistically 10" of windage on either side of the target at that distance and with practice, allows for precision windage hold off
a carbon fiber filled polymer upper and lower, coupled with a pencil barrel should make a 6# unloaded rifle with a significant edge in fire power at "close interpersonal confrontation" distances
my 7" 5.56 pistol with a LAW folding adapter shoots around 2moa at 100yd with 69 Sierra Match King H322 handloads using a 6moa reflex sight
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Financially this got shoved to the back burner, but it has given me more time to think things through. As much as I like the idea of a bolt gun for defense I can see the wisdom of using a semi-auto for the job. Probably something like the Sig MCX SBR, short barrel and folding stock and uses AR mags. I'm still thinking of something in the 1x-4x range optically.
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Have you ruled out lever action?
I don't have any experience with it, but I find a takedown interesting for travel:
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Browning-Lever-Action-Takedown-Rifle-a-field-test-review/531840.uts (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Browning-Lever-Action-Takedown-Rifle-a-field-test-review/531840.uts)
It's pretty expensive...but you have a lot of caliber choices and you skirt around a lot of stupid local laws with a lever action.
http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr/current-production/blr-lightweight-81-stainless-takedown.html (http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr/current-production/blr-lightweight-81-stainless-takedown.html)
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Mr. Bane just did a podcast about lever actions. I've been saving for one for some time. Can't buy AR's here anymore, at least and until they upend the AG's ban on them...
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I had forgotten about that. How can he do that?
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I had forgotten about that. How can he do that?
It's a she and she just did!
She reinterpreted the law and stopped sales the next day!
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If you want to get a really lightweight AR the KSP US X-7 Monarch AR-15 carbine weighs a pound less than some AR pistols. It's barely over 4 pounds but more expensive than the average AR. https://www.kaiserus.com/product/x-7-monarch-ar-15-light-as-a-feather-rifle/
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Have you ruled out lever action?
I don't have any experience with it, but I find a takedown interesting for travel:
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Browning-Lever-Action-Takedown-Rifle-a-field-test-review/531840.uts (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Browning-Lever-Action-Takedown-Rifle-a-field-test-review/531840.uts)
It's pretty expensive...but you have a lot of caliber choices and you skirt around a lot of stupid local laws with a lever action.
http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr/current-production/blr-lightweight-81-stainless-takedown.html (http://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr/current-production/blr-lightweight-81-stainless-takedown.html)
That's a really good point, I had forgotten about a lever gun. A Browning BLR Takedown in 308 would fit the bill really well. Especially a suppressor ready SBR.
We don't have any laws about AR's to worry about here but my wife has been wanting to get a camper in a few years and a lever action would definitely travel better than a semi auto would.
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A suppressed .308 BLR would be cool but if you want a lever action you have lots of choices from .22 LR on up to .457 WWG, and even bigger calibers. I don't think anyone makes .50 Alaskan rifles anymore except a few custom makers, but Wild West Guns has brass for it, and Buffalo Bore makes ammo for it starting at $100 and change for 20 rounds.
Suddenly the price on .457 WWG ammo doesn't look so bad. Wild West Guns makes a great looking take-down model .457 WWG but it's priced way beyond the budget many of us have. https://www.wildwestguns.com/custom-guns/ak-co-pilot/
Corbon makes ammo in .457 WWG. It seems really expensive except when compared to .50 Alaskan. https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=67_112
.45-70 would be a more realistic choice for a big bore and could be had in much more affordable rifles. The medium bore calibers would be better all around but not needed if you aren't in bear country. A .308 would probably be the best all around caliber because it's big enough to handle 2-legged varmints and most game animals, plus you can get ammo for it at a reasonable price practically anywhere that sells ammo.