The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: alfsauve on July 22, 2017, 07:15:26 AM
-
I posted this thought in a S&W FaceBook forum and thought it might also be of some interest here as well. The idea is one of cults, or at least fanaticism. I've modified my original to include other gun brands. What kind of fanatic are you?
I'm thinking that S&W/Colt/1911/Glock/Sig/... lovers are similar to Harley fans. The company doesn't always turn out a perfect product, but we love them and are willing to stick with them through better and not so good. We complain about them but keep coming back to them.
When I was taking a marketing course the class was asked to pick and defend the company with the strongest brand loyalty. I chose Harley D and my defense was that it was one of the few companies whose customers are willing to wear company logo as a tattoo. I'm think S&W/Colt/1911/Glock/Sig/... also rates up there in brand loyalty.
-
Actually, a Ruger eagle would make a pretty cool tattoo. LOL
-
I have to agree somewhat with the Harley analogy. But comparing The newer Harley Evolution V-Twin today, to a Pan Head or old Shovel Head, (think Easy Rider), is much like comparing a modern 2017, 5.7 or 6.4 HEMI pushrod V-8, to a old dual quad, 1969, 426 HEMI back in the day. Today's HEMI still runs on the same principal. But is just as or more powerful, with far greater longevity and dependability. Same with the Harley.
It's much the same with older designed guns. Today's modern manufactured 1911's run far more dependably than the older versions. And they're far more accurate. Things like better close tolerance CNC machining to eliminate "tolerance stacking", have improved out of the box 1911 performance and accuracy in leaps and bounds. It has also kept costs down by eliminating a lot of hand work. In the "old days" they increased dependability by simply making them sloppier, to the point they damn near rattled when you shook them.
That said, it's a design that cannot be shortcut or drastically modified without creating issues. I still wouldn't trust a "chopped" 1911 as a self defense weapon. Modern machining and all. These guns are well made. (Enough to make me want to own one). But I still would not trust one enough for self defense carry. As a range toy they're fine. Browning's designs did not fair well to downsizing, or to be changed into something they're not.
The whole thing today is ease and quickness of manufacturing, in order to keep profitability high. That is very hard to do with a 1911. Although outfits like Rock Island Armory have produced some excellent, dependable, low cost 1911's. Polymer guns take over here. Glocks, Springfield XD's, the whole H&K Polymer line, Ruger with their ever changing Polymer handgun lineup, and the S&W M&P have taken profitability to new levels. The stock prices of these companies reflect this. So the bottom line is old school, all machined steel still works. They just usually weigh more, and usually cost more. Because they can't, "Make em' cheap, and Stack em' deep", as they can their plastic molded counterparts.
-
I believe that most "gun people" are brand oriented. There are many choices, but we have our favorites, and we will either accept or ignore the short comings due to loyalty.
Harley lovers today still ignore the ancient concept behind their brand. I would like to have a Harley, because there is much I like about them. However, even though they have made improvements and advanced in technology, they still require the continual routine adjustments that most companies did away with 50 years ago. Who, but a pilot or died in the wool HD lover, thinks it is normal to take your bike in continually for inspections and adjustments on valves and timing chains?
Look to Rob Pincus and his obsession with Glock that is only tempered by some ok it will do acceptance of some other striker fired guns.
-
Bill must be drunk. Or else he doesn't know anything about JMB.
Wouldn't trust a 1911 for EDC ? Really ? Designs don't modify, or down size well ?? Really ?
Ever heard of the FN 1900 .32 ? It basically invented the idea of universal carry in "civilization" and defined what a semi auto should be. The 1911 is the only pistol to be in production for over a hundred years steady with no meaningful change in design . Not to mention that 3 of the 4 most common pistol cartridges of the last 110 years were all designed by the same JMB, 32 acp, 45 acp, and.380 as for simplification, look at JMB's last work , the Hi Power.
I won't even go into how he saved 3 of the largest gun makers in the world, Winchester, Colt, and FN.
-
Bill must be drunk. Or else he doesn't know anything about JMB.
Wouldn't trust a 1911 for EDC ? Really ? Designs don't modify, or down size well ?? Really ?
Ever heard of the FN 1900 .32 ? It basically invented the idea of universal carry in "civilization" and defined what a semi auto should be. The 1911 is the only pistol to be in production for over a hundred years steady with no meaningful change in design . Not to mention that 3 of the 4 most common pistol cartridges of the last 110 years were all designed by the same JMB, 32 acp, 45 acp, and.380 as for simplification, look at JMB's last work , the Hi Power.
I won't even go into how he saved 3 of the largest gun makers in the world, Winchester, Colt, and FN.
I said, I wouldn't trust a CHOPPED 1911. And neither do several other people who train people with guns for a living.... And if you want to carry a .32 for personal protection, you better have a razor in your shoe for backup. Like, "Leroy Brown".... And the Hi-Power is anything but a downsized gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P0edDYdqXU&t=10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfJj90eNIfE
-
The rattletrap circa 50's era 1911A1 was good enuf for me to qual fer my expert marksman medal back in 78 on a standard 25 yard range and the Navy standard rule of the day!
-
Look to Rob Pincus and his obsession with Glock that is only tempered by some ok it will do acceptance of some other striker fired guns.
I don't think guys like Pincus and Yeager are "obsessed" with Glocks. Rather, they have been convinced, over a period of years, along with thousands of students, who have fired millions of rounds of ammunition, that they work well, malfunction little, and are easy to both operate and train people on. Not to mention most anyone can afford them. I would feel the same if I experienced what they have, for as long as they have.
-
I don't like Pincus, and Yeager is a menace to his students whose name should not even be used by responsible gun owners as anything but a bad example. That being said, the Glock is the culmination of 500 years of hand gun mechanical, and manufacturing, technology We each may have preferences in features, materials, or shapes, but Glock is the pinnacle of mass market reliable hand guns and any of the polymer frame, striker fired pistols since then are nothing but followers. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that Glock has perfected the balance of minimal machining, simplicity of mechanism while maintaining accuracy and reliability. Glock is probably the best balance of function and price on the market today.
And I happen to be more comfortable with a 1911 because I prefer the single action trigger and have far more experience with it.
-
Yea, I questioned Pincus' resume once and he didn't like it much and never did answer the question. I expect he's a fine shooter but his ego is a tad too overblown.
-
Yea, I questioned Pincus' resume once and he didn't like it much and never did answer the question. I expect he's a fine shooter but his ego is a tad too overblown.
He may mean well (or not, I don't know), but his tone always seems to come across as condescending.
As to the OP:
I have multiple brands, but I guess the one I'm most loyal to is Colt....followed by Browning.....then Ruger..... then....... ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
LOL, Ruger, Thompson/Center, and Sig, guess what they have in common.
Years ago a guy was bragging to me and another Kawi owner about his "all American" HD, my buddy says, " Flip up the seat and look at your electrical system" Every part had Japanese characters on it, fuel system was the same.
-
LOL, Ruger, Thompson/Center, and Sig, guess what they have in common.
Years ago a guy was bragging to me and another Kawi owner about his "all American" HD, my buddy says, " Flip up the seat and look at your electrical system" Every part had Japanese characters on it, fuel system was the same.
Yea, I've owned and ridden every major brand of bike over the 45 years since I received my license, Harley's included.
About the only one that didn't have Asian parts was my Triumph or the Italian made HD Sprint I built from a box o parts in high school!
Guns, I've a few favs... wish I owned one of those Korean era Colt 1911's in a Commander frame! That old familiar rattle is comforting.
-
I got a kick out of the comments in the S&W forum where I posted this.
Several denying that they'd ever had any problems with either the Harley or their S&W. Folks all products (even Glock and Apple) have problems from time to time.
Several denied being "fan boys" of S&W. Problem is when you post multiple times a day in a product forum, that's prima facia evidence of being a fan boy.
-
I've drooled for a polished, blued S&W model 27 for a while, just can't afford one.
-
I love Rugers with the exception of some of the center-fire pistols they've made. If I ever buy another .22 LR pistol or rifle it will likely be another Ruger. I don't own a .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum revolver at this time but if I did they would probably be a GP100 and a Redhawk. I've even decided on what barrel length I would want.
I really liked the Dan Wesson .357 Magnum I had but with new models having a MSRP of over $1,500 for one with a single 6 " barrel and about $2,000 for a Pistol Pack with 3 barrels they're priced well beyond what I'm willing to spend on a replacement. A stainless steel GP100 at an MSRP of $829 is much more to my liking.
I had a Colt Series 80 1911 that I sold to a friend and still have a Para-Ordnance 13+1 frame kit built with mostly Colt Series 80 parts. I like them too but the only Colt I have now is an AR-15A2 Sporter II. It has all A2 style parts except for the rear sight. The upper has a forward assist and an A2 brass deflector but an A1 sight. From what I was able to find they made that hybrid upper for about 3 years.
If I could be called a fanboy for any brand it would be Para-Ordnance/Para-USA. I have 3 of their .45s, a 14 round full size with a 5" barrel, a 12 round compact LDA with a 3.5" barrel and a 10 round sub-compact with a 3" barrel. I never saw a need to add a 13 round Commander size with a 4.25" barrel to my collection.
-
I do miss my Para with that big friggin extractor! Chucked brass into the next county and never burped on anything fed into it!!
My only gripe was their "Paracoat" wasn't too durable.
-
I agree about the personalities of both Pincus and Yeager. In fact most all of these guys walk around with a chip on their shoulder. And can, and usually do, come down as condescending. But it doesn't change what they see on a day in and day out basis. It is based on that, where what they say has value.
They have no cause or reason to lie. Especially about an entire platform of weapons. As far as individual makes of guns? Yeah, there you have to be careful because many of them are paid. That said, neither Yeager or Pincus are paid by Glock.
-
With a $20 Ghost connector I prefer my SR-9. It had such a suckey trigger on it to begin with...but it's flawless over 5,000 rounds and still tight. Loaded pistol indicator is great, thin with a high round count.
Another thing it's rounded off everywhere so it won't snap when you have to pull it out....a really nice touch. It puts rounds down range where I want them when I want them. It's my best trigger now because of the truly great reset...compliments of the Ghost upgrade.
-
Boy I remember Rob and Hazcat used to go after it....it made for an interesting board.
I do remember back...probably the last year Rob was on Best Defense he had a standing offer that anyone who had a Kimber 1911 who didn't have a failure by lunch the 1st or 2nd day got there money back for their class. That's pretty strong.
-
I know from minor experience that short barrel 1911 frames can be problematic. That said, knowing the limitations of the design I doubt I'd own something less than a 4" barrel but the feel, fit, trigger and long familiarity with the 1911 slim design makes it darn near perfect for me.
I have an old Sig that just feels good as well! The trigger blows but Sig will correct that shortly.
EDC is a snub... Timex simple, shoots every time!
-
I'll let you guys know how the wife's Kimber Ultra 2 9mm runs after a few hundred rounds downrange. It' has digested 200 give or take without a problem so far.
I was agin' it...but it was Rose Gold I didn't stand a chance.
-
Boy I remember Rob and Hazcat used to go after it....it made for an interesting board.
Back then Pincus was a kid, barely 35. He ain't much past 40 now!
Makes it tough for us old phuqers to trust him! I've been doing the same thing for 30 years and don't consider myself an expert at anything! Hard to believe snot nosed kids are "experts" at any level!
-
I do remember back...probably the last year Rob was on Best Defense he had a standing offer that anyone who had a Kimber 1911 who didn't have a failure by lunch the 1st or 2nd day got there money back for their class. That's pretty strong.
If you watch the video I posted about sub compact 1911's failing, Rob mentions that challenge at the end of the video. From what I understand no one has collected on it. It includes all makes of full size 1911 models as well as the chopped models.
-
FWIW... I've been a practical pistol and 3 gun competitor since 1982, and estimate nearing 400,000 rounds...my 1911's have broken finger bushings, solid bushings, slide stops, total barrel failures, link breaks, plunger tube loosening, extractor failures... my Rem1100/1187... extractor break, interceptor latch break, gas ring break, multiple "tuning fork" break, shell lift pin break
I shoot a G34 and a Benelli M1S90.... :) and IIRC never a mechanical failure other than knocking an extended mag pad off the Glock and dumping rounds, spring and follower... I guess I'm a fan boy
-
I know from minor experience that short barrel 1911 frames can be problematic. That said, knowing the limitations of the design I doubt I'd own something less than a 4" barrel but the feel, fit, trigger and long familiarity with the 1911 slim design makes it darn near perfect for me.
I have an old Sig that just feels good as well! The trigger blows but Sig will correct that shortly.
EDC is a snub... Timex simple, shoots every time!
I've read that the 3" 1911s have a lot of functioning problems but the 3.5" models have fewer problems. I haven't really shot either one enough to know if that's true. My 3" .45 is the only gun I have that isn't locked up. My 3.5 inch isn't even broken in yet and the round count is very close to 0. If anything happens to the 3" pistol I'll put some rounds through the 3.5" and start using it instead. I would use the 5" .45 for a house gun but the frame is on my Mech Tech CCU. It fits nice and snug but the slide to frame fit of the pistol is very sloppy and I don't want to wear it out any worse.
-
That's a good track record Les. I'd be interested in hearing about those barrel failures!
-
I don't think guys like Pincus and Yeager are "obsessed" with Glocks. Rather, they have been convinced, over a period of years, along with thousands of students, who have fired millions of rounds of ammunition, that they work well, malfunction little, and are easy to both operate and train people on. Not to mention most anyone can afford them. I would feel the same if I experienced what they have, for as long as they have.
My issue on Rob's total hate of the 1911 is based on two of his points: 1. He feels that we are incapable of two moves prior to firing under stress (drawing the gun & disengaging the safety). Sorry Rob, but I am capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time!; 2. He condemns the firearm because it may, guaranteed in his opinion, fail if forced to run a 500+ course of fire without cleaning. How many rounds do we fire in a self defense situation?
Oh yea, let me add that if we disagree with his assessment of these firearms we are total idiots in should not be allowed to carry. He will even allow you to bring your "dangerous" 1911 to his course so he can ridicule you (check out his 1911 challenges and videos of students who bring them).
-
If you watch the video I posted about sub compact 1911's failing, Rob mentions that challenge at the end of the video. From what I understand no one has collected on it. It includes all makes of full size 1911 models as well as the chopped models.
I remember Rob posting once that a person collected on his free ammunition promise (1,200+ rounds) for having a 1911 that completed the entire two day course without an issue.
-
Yea, I questioned Pincus' resume once and he didn't like it much and never did answer the question. I expect he's a fine shooter but his ego is a tad too overblown.
My issue with his resume is the sheer volume of "experience." I have not dug into everything he has done for depth and length of time, but it is a lot for a person with less than 20 years from entering adulthood to when he became popular and was already fully devoted to his company.
This thread has turned into a Pincus bashing party, and I have contributed - maybe opened the door, but even with his good and excellent points, Rob Pincus could use a lesson and large dose of Rob Leatham humility in his personality.
-
Remember, if it's on the interwebs, it must be true!
Loyalty.....Dad worked for GM for 30 years. He drove a Ford for most of that time!
-
My issue on Rob's total hate of the 1911 is based on two of his points: 1. He feels that we are incapable of two moves prior to firing under stress (drawing the gun & disengaging the safety). Sorry Rob, but I am capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time!; 2. He condemns the firearm because it may, guaranteed in his opinion, fail if forced to run a 500+ course of fire without cleaning. How many rounds do we fire in a self defense situation?
First off, I like the 1911 platform enough to own an even dozen of them. Glock's to the tune of 6. So I'm sure there are "fanboys" of either platform who qualify as such, and have far fewer of each. With that said, I understand and accept Rob's opinion on them. You have to remember, regardless of his abrasive personality, that he see's more students fumble with 1911 safeties, than most any other platform. He doesn't create that condition, he merely observes it. He also see's them malfunction more than any other platform.
You can say much the exact same thing about Yeager. Every week they see what amounts to scores of people struggle through their courses with these types of guns. While at the same time see others using Glock's not have any of the same issues. After several thousands of students, along with millions of rounds, over a period of a decade or more, their opinions become pretty cemented with fact. Because there is nothing to change them, and everything to reinforce them further. Based only on what they observe.
As far as the number of rounds fired before a failure is deemed acceptable. That's personal opinion as well. Again, they see Glock's run an entire weekend without a hiccup. While at the same time they also see 1911's shut down for a variety of reasons. Dirt, lack of lube, breakage, won't run right with this or that type of ammo. This magazine locks the slide back after the last shot, but that one won't. Anyway, you get the picture. They are both basically parroting what they see happening in their classes. Day after day. Week after week. Year after year.
I look at them much the same way I look at appliance repairmen or car mechanics. They are in a unique position that I'm not, which allows them to observe a lot more failure than I do. Based on the failure they observe, I value their opinion on what makes and models to stay away from, and which to buy. That's not to say you can't buy a Samsung fridge, and carry a 1911, and have good luck with both. But the odds are more in your favor if you don't. I can replace a bad car or a bad fridge. But in a life or death situation, I want everything in my favor as much as I can possibly make it that way. So yeah, I'll grab a Glock instead of a 1911 when I head out the door.
-
Billt,
Not debating your last point, because we have differing views of Rob's choice and reasoning. I feel I have pointed out, as have you, our opposites on the same issues enough.
-
Loyalty.....Dad worked for GM for 30 years. He drove a Ford for most of that time!
This is a common situation that I have never understood. It is one thing if your employer does not make what you need or you are priced out of the market: Build Peterbuilt or Rolls Royce. However, when you are making the common car and won't be loyal to that brand for your regular use, why do you work there?
I remember my time with a Chevrolet dealer and also later with a Ford dealer. Both employers required that you support their brand. They even helped you. They both hired people who used other brands, but expected that when you changed it matched your chosen career choice.
I had a hard time understanding this in my youth, but that has changed. We live very near a very large major lawn care manufacturer. I have owned one of their brands in the past, and liked it. However, when we upgraded a couple items in recent years I considered this brand until I remembered how few of the local employees utilize their own brand at any level. WHY? If it isn't good enough for those who build them and can buy them at extreme discount, why would I trust it for a major purchase?
-
Rastus... the Clark .45 stainless barrel had about 20,000 rounds on it at the time if I remember correctly... it split from the bottom of the chamber, along a rifling groove passing next to the bottom lug, to about 1/2" from the muzzle...naturally it happened at a major Area 6 match... pistol was a high cap Para lower with bar stock Caspian slide... I don't remember anything like a double charge, it just quit working....
BS Photobucket policy on third party hosting or I'd show a picture
if I screw up at a match (not uncommon any more) I can live with it... I hate my equipment to go down
-
Les that was a freak occurrence. Sounds like the machining contacted, or nearly contacted, a casting flaw in exactly the wrong spot.
-
This is a common situation that I have never understood. It is one thing if your employer does not make what you need or you are priced out of the market: Build Peterbuilt or Rolls Royce. However, when you are making the common car and won't be loyal to that brand for your regular use, why do you work there?
I think pop was loyal to his five kids and ma! He got better deals from our local Ford dealer even though one of our neighbors owned a Chevy dealer down the street.
Like me, I don't believe that loyalty from a major public company is a two way street!
My current employer could give a shit about anything but the stockholders and at this point, our stock is all but worthless.
-
I agree with Bill, and don't want to appear to be 'bashing' Pincus. I will defer to his broad experiences in witnessing 1911 failures due to the volume of students in his classes.
My Colt 1911's have not failed me, but I've never ran 1200 rounds in a week through them either (500 is max for a weekender).
I'm one of those folks who believes there is something to learn from everyone (you just have to discern what it is from person to person) and would have no issues taking instruction from Rob (I just have to overlook his delivery style). as he has valid points.
Back to brands:
I'm also a big fan of Ithaca 37 shotguns, followed by Winchester 1300's.
Rifles, I'm a Browning fan.
-
......However, when you are making the common car and won't be loyal to that brand for your regular use, why do you work there?........ If it isn't good enough for those who build them and can buy them at extreme discount, why would I trust it for a major purchase?
Perhaps they just prefer something else? Cars, like clothes, are a personal choice. You shouldn't have to be looked down on, or else forced to purchase something you don't really like, just because you're employed by the company who makes it. We chose a Jeep Grand Cherokee over a Ford Expedition. Even though I've had fantastic luck with my 1991 Ford F-150 Pickup. I'm still driving it, and I like Ford products.
But we thought the Expedition was unattractive, and overpriced for what they offered. They also depreciate much faster. None of that would have changed if I had worked for Ford when we bought it. Ford could very well be a great company to work for, with good people and great benefits. But if you think the product is unattractive for whatever reasons, you shouldn't be forced to buy it. That's insane. How many hours does an auto worker have to labor to pay for one, employee discount and all? The free market is still free. Regardless of where you work, or who you work for.
-
I've worked for major companies. Gulf Oil which is long gone, Chevron which is still around and even Boeing for a few years. Workers are fodder. Especially with the emergence of MBA programs that seem to heighten overpaid upper management's short-sightedness at times.
Recognition for hard work and loyalty falls solely on the management properly recognizing that and next being prepared to place corporate value on that. With several layers of management it gets very doubtful the guy on the bottom working his heart out will get his due. Yeah, yeah...tell me all about the personnel evaluations they generally mean squat. If you are in a unit getting cut and it costs money to move you...oops...it's about making money so you probably don't get moved unless you are very special.
Back at the old Vintage Petroleum in the 1999 downturn my district was the only district that did not lay off any employees...all of the other District Managers caved in and got rid of a few people and sometimes good people. I found another way to maintain profitability and kept everyone but it took working after hours, preparing plans and schedules, running over countless pages of costs and economics and a couple of huge spreadsheets to have what it took to fight for it. So...it boils down to the management and if they are lazy yes guys in lower and middle management all the hard work at the bottom often means squat. Just because they got a college degree it seems most people just think they have arrived, need to be paid big $$$'s and cop an attitude if they have to go out of their way or depart from the norm...same thing with guys who worked through the ranks to management.
I understand wanting to be loyal to your employer...but when it becomes impersonal and spans layers of management being loyal is not a ticket to reward. You should give what you can because that's the right thing to do for the money and benefits you receive....if you want more find more. In fact, I've fired very loyal guys who were lazy and trying to ride the system. In the end...EVERYONE...from top to bottom needs to evaluate their work, why they are there and should they move to somewhere else. It's good when you get in on the bottom, people are needed and perks are given away to attract talent but once a company matures take what you can for a better opportunity.
I put my family's betterment over the company's any day.
-
Like my pop, I work for my family. I rue the day I stopped working for one guy and went corporate! My salary is bigger but the pain of dealing with incompetent management ain't worth the trouble..
-
I think I mentioned before that I like Chevy trucks and some of my friends and ex-coworkers make them for a living. I'm loyal to a brand that's been good to me in the past. The fact it also makes my best friend a good living is a nice bonus.
My older brother bought a made in Mexico Dodge truck when he was working for GM. He said it was the worst POS he ever owned but when it was time to buy a new truck he bought another made in Mexico Dodge. There's brand loyalty and then there's blind stupidity.
-
Brand loyalty. Blind Stupidity.
Nice linkage there. Sort of like being a Democrat and a gun owner all at the same time.
I've had good luck with my Ford's. My wife has 396k miles on a 2002 7.3L diesel Excursion and I have 197k miles on a 2006 F-250 6.0L truck.
I'm putting a new stereo in the F-250 this week...or rather having one installed. Maybe I oughta start a thread and get comments on the components I selected.
-
Or being agains thuman trafficking and in favor of sanctuary cities.
-
Brand loyalty. Blind Stupidity.
Nice linkage there. Sort of like being a Democrat and a gun owner all at the same time.
I've had good luck with my Ford's. My wife has 396k miles on a 2002 7.3L diesel Excursion and I have 197k miles on a 2006 F-250 6.0L truck.
I'm putting a new stereo in the F-250 this week...or rather having one installed. Maybe I oughta start a thread and get comments on the components I selected.
I am driving an ex-police car (Crown Vic) with 120,000 miles and expect to get 300,000 more. Love the ride, power, etc... It was an unmarked unit. I am over 60 and have owned Ford all my life except for 2 cars. 1 was a Dodge van which had consistent transmission issues (one of the first years they went to electronic control) and the other was a 1966 Plymouth Fury when I was a kid.
There are just certain items that I am very brand loyal too.
Firearms I will lean toward well know brands but will not shy away from any brand if upon exam and references if looks reliable.
-
As far as car and truck brands, I think "brand loyalty" is somewhat ignorant. You can get a "good one", or a "bad one" in any brand. Back in 1979 I bought a Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel. They were very poorly rated by Consumer Reports. All solid black "circles". I took a chance and bought it anyway. It turned out to be one of the best and most dependable vehicles I ever owned.
I sold it in 1991 when we moved to Arizona, only because it didn't have A/C. (It wasn't offered on the Rabbit Diesel until 1980). It had 115,000 miles on it, and the Michelin tires were original, and still had plenty of tread! And I never even rotated them. It got an honest 50 MPG all the while I had it. My current, and probably last new car is a 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee that I couldn't be happier with. Not a single problem. The 5.7 HEMI has 360 H.P., and with the 8 speed ZF Automatic Transmission, it's unbelievably fast for a full size SUV. And thus far I'm averaging 17 MPG.
No matter what you buy, or how much you pay, it can go either way. You roll the dice and take your chances with today's durable goods. Regardless of who made them, or where.
-
I'd rather drive a Toyota, or Nissan, made in America than a Ford made in Canada .
-
Ford has one Canadian assembly plant these days. It assembles four current models, none of which I own. All of my last five were built in the Midwest where all of Ford assembly plants reside in the US.
They've changed the way they rate "domestic" production, I think the Wrangler is the new number one! Possibly the least reliable vehicle made today.
-
Best way to pick a vehicle is to get the most stolen. Nissan Centra lead the pack for years.
People must love them if they'll steal them, or have one stolen.
-
Best way to pick a vehicle is to get the most stolen. Nissan Centra lead the pack for years.
People must love them if they'll steal them, or have one stolen.
Coincidentally I just read that report last week. Most cars are stolen for their parts. Don't remember who led the pack last year.
-
Here’s the National Insurance Crime Bureau's list of most stolen used cars, with the “most popular” model years noted and the total number of units taken for each nameplate during 2016:
1. Honda Accord (1997), 50,427 stolen
2. Honda Civic (1998), 49,547
3. Ford F-Series Pickup (2006), 32,721
4. Chevrolet Silverado Pickup (2004), 31,238
5. Toyota Camry (2016), 16,732
6. Nissan Altima (2015), 12,221
7. Ram Pickup (2001), 12,128
8. Toyota Corolla (2015), 11,989
9. Chevrolet Impala (2008), 9,749
10. Jeep Cherokee/Grand Cherokee (2000), 9,245
Hondas and full size pickups are really popular with thieves.
-
In 2016 they're stealing 1997 Accords?
-
In 2016 they're stealing 1997 Accords?
Parts market is huge!
Not traceable except the motor, trans and chassis!
-
I had a friend that had a Grand Cherokee stolen in CT. They found it two days later in Hartford with the motor, trans, chassis and the LOJACK still intact.
Everything else was gone!