The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: m25operator on September 07, 2008, 07:55:54 PM
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I just read Mr. Erhards report on the uspsa match in Tulsa (http://www.downrange.tv/blog/?p=226/), and he mentioned Jerry Miculeks inefficient reloads, Mr. Erhard is definitely not a revolver shooter and is unqualified to report on it. The fact that no one reloads faster does not seem to matter, it seems he believes it is out of sheer want to, not how to. He did mention Squibby gave him a reason, but did not state it. Let me explain, Jerry's reload, and I've been doing the same for over 20 years.
1st, the reload that most people use, open the cylinder with the firing hand, eject the empties, with the non firing hand, usually parallel to the ground, grab speed loader with the non firing hand and insert cartridges, letting the speed loader drop free, close the cylinder and reclaim the grip, begin firing again, not bad, but not efficient.
Problem 1 is ejecting parallel to the ground, unburnt powder will accumulate under the extractor, and bind the cylinder.
2nd the shooting hand is stationary, and the non firing hand is doing all the work. 3rd, when the firing hand still is gripped to the revolver, the thumb of a right handed shooter is in the way and can catch a cartridge on the way out and hang it up.
The Miculek way, shooting hand opens the cylinder, the revolver is transferred to the non firing hand, and the empties are ejected, with the barrel perpendicular to the ground, maybe a shade off to avoid breaking the 180 degree rule, while this is happening, the firing hand is grabbing the speedloader, with the revolver at belt level, and charging the cylinder, as the cylinder is filled, let go of the loader or moon clip and close the cylinder while reclaiming the proper grip and fire. 2 hands work better than 1.
Any questions?
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Just two questions. Who is this Erhards guy? Does he think he can do better than a multiple world record holder?
And one comment. What a d*ck.
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While I'm far from a speed "reloader" when it comes to revolvers the second method is what I use even just normally unloading my revolver.
The right thumb unlatches the cylinder while the left 2,3&4 fingers push the cylinder open through the frame. The gun naturally rotates so the butt ends up facing me & the barrel is tilted up and slightly down range. So it's not so much a "transfer" as it just naturally ends up in the left hand while the right hand goes for the speed loader. The left thumb operates the ejector. Then the left hand rotates the gun back right side up ready to receive the reload.
I think I saw this demonstrated by Bill Jordan. Don't remember exactly.
Hope I described it correctly.
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I'm a new shooter and have never fired a revolver, but some day will own at least 1. When I get it, should I try to emulate a world champion or a director of marketing? Hmmm, that's a tough one. :)
Do what works for YOU, it may not be same as what works for some one else no matter how many championships they have won. Myself I open the cylinder latch with my right (firing hand) thumb, pushing cylinder with trigger finger, hit the ejector with the heel of my left hand which has already fished out a reload, drop them in close cylinder with left hand. No need to reacquire grip, just sight and get on the trigger. Of course this is not as important in a self defense situation, because if you need to reload you will be behind cover.
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Here's what ya need...
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Guns/100_0928.jpg)
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Just two questions. Who is this Erhards guy? Does he think he can do better than a multiple world record holder?
And one comment. What a d*ck.
Those that can't do..criticize
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When I had a Dan Wesson there was no way to open it with my firing hand. I held it in my right hand in a firing grip and had to use my left hand to open it. Thumb on latch, fingers through frame to open, dump, reload, done. I had to do what worked for me with my gun. If everyone does what works for them no one else should complain about it.
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Nah, mate. Those aren't revolvers. This is a revolver. ;)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/alfsauve/IMG_2115Cropedsmall.jpg)
Seriously. Hold out and get a Smith. You'll never regret it.
Alf
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I can relaod my .45 Redhawk to standards your S&W will never stand up to. :o
S&W makes a nice gun but I want a TANK. ;D
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My USPSA revolver is a S&W 625-8 (JM PC). I follow Jerry's reload recommendations and find it very easy and smooth. The opening of the cylinder with the fingers of the left hand naturally transfer the gun and tip it leaving the right hand free to drop a moon clip in, and the transfer back is smooth and easy.
Watch the guys that are successful and imitate the one that is most comfortable to you.
* Haz, I hate to call you a sissy, but do I need to post a picture of my "big dog?"
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Just two questions. Who is this Erhards guy? Does he think he can do better than a multiple world record holder?
And one comment. What a d*ck.
This required my response. I'm not picking a fight, but feel I need to educate those not familiar with Paul Erhardt's qualifications. In his own words..."I would have won the Steel Challenge, but my reloads suck". Oh how true - I've known Paul for many years. And no, he doesn't think he'll EVER do better than a multiple world record holder...especially this girl ;D. Paul is one of the firearm industry's BEST PUBLIC RELATIONS assets along with MB. Would I ever go out on a date Paul? HELL NO, but I will be one of the first to defend his resume.
Please review his article carefully - I believe his definition of an inefficient revolver reload is the PHYSICAL exchange of the gun from strong to weak hand and vice versa to completion of the reload...and is not actually referring to the timing. What works for one, may not necessarily work for all.
One more comment. Jerry's reloads should be the new definition of "Git-R-Done!"
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See the first post, and it's complete explanation, no one wins the steel challenge with a reload on any stage. Squibby I love you, but this person is not qualified on this subject. No matter his accolades in the sport, he has not walked the walk, but did talk the talk.
I will personally take anyone on that thinks his way is the way. My name is not Jerry Miculek, but I will defend his methods, comfortably.
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I am left hand challanged and find that the JM method of reloading is the best method for me just as I find that dropping the mag on a semi-auto with my off thumb is the best method for me. Both gentlemen are very good at what they do and I believe Mr. Erhardt is correct in saying it is ineffecient, but I wish I was as ineffecient as JM.
JMHO
Richard
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My USPSA revolver is a S&W 625-8 (JM PC). I follow Jerry's reload recommendations and find it very easy and smooth. The opening of the cylinder with the fingers of the left hand naturally transfer the gun and tip it leaving the right hand free to drop a moon clip in, and the transfer back is smooth and easy.
Watch the guys that are successful and imitate the one that is most comfortable to you.
* Haz, I hate to call you a sissy, but do I need to post a picture of my "big dog?"
UH HUH, UH HUH (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/huepfen/jumping-smiley-004.gif)
Pictures is goooood! ;D
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I follow the Miculek method of reloading a revolver. I shot in the PPC Nationals, three years in a row, in mid-70's and that is the way it was being done. Watched the people who dominatedd PPC at that time and they did the Miculek way. I found out the hard way that if you hold the pistol parallel with the ground, cases might get hung up or not fall freely. By tiping the pistol more perpendicular to the ground, you are aided by gravity which helps in getting empty cases out of the way. I read the article by the "firearms expert", too bad he did not explain the "correct" way to reload a DA revolver.
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Another way, as shown by SouthNarc's "Running the Revolver" tutorial on totalprotectioninteractive.com, is to hold the revolver at an angle (sorta at nose level while looking downrange) and jam your elbow into your ribs or hip. The sudden "stop" causes the cases to fall out. This works well if you have only one arm AND the cases don't stick.
Yet another way I've seen is to practically throw the cases behind you by whacking the ejector rod as you suddenly stop the gun near hip level. The cases will go behind you. Then you reload on the way back up.
Just some stuff I came across when looking for different reloading methods.
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Did somebody call for a big dog??? ;D
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/Walter-45-Auto/Pics050.jpg)
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Did somebody call for a big dog??? ;D
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/Walter-45-Auto/Pics050.jpg)
WOOF!!!!!!!!!
Sweet! Freedom Arms?
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Did somebody call for a big dog??? ;D
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/Walter-45-Auto/Pics050.jpg)
Is that the .45/70 ?
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That looks like a Big F****** Revolver. Are you loaded for bear, or buffalo?
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This is Mr. Erhardt's comment on Miculek's "inefficent" reload.
When you reload according to this method you have distinct movements that need to be accomplished in sequence. 1, open cylinder. 2. dump empties with non-shooting hand. 3. get speedloader/moon clips. 4. non-shooting hand back up to pistol. 5. load cylinder/drop speedloader/moon clip. 6. close cylinder. 7. go back to firing posiition.
When you reload using the "inefficient" method. 1. Open cylinder. 2. Transfer pistol to non-shooting hand, at same time shooting hand is getting speedloader/moon clip. 3. Dump empties. 4. Shooting hand comes up with speedloader/moon clip. 5. Load cylinder 6. go back to firing position.
While in actuallity the amount of steps are the same, because you are doing two things at once on the "inefficient" method, you are saving time.
"One of the fascinating aspects about Miculek’s style, besides being blazingly fast, is how he handles his reloads. One would assume that he’d use the most efficient reload of maintaining his grip throughout the process, using his weak-hand to do all the work. However, Miculek transfers the open revolver into his left hand and drops in his moon clip reload with his right the reestablishes his grip."
Quote from M58
"The Miculek way, shooting hand opens the cylinder, the revolver is transferred to the non firing hand, and the empties are ejected, with the barrel perpendicular to the ground, maybe a shade off to avoid breaking the 180 degree rule, while this is happening, the firing hand is grabbing the speedloader, with the revolver at belt level, and charging the cylinder, as the cylinder is filled, let go of the loader or moon clip and close the cylinder while reclaiming the proper grip and fire. 2 hands work better than 1."
Only thing I would add to M58's quote is that when emptying the cylinder the barrel should be pointing up to allow the empties to fall free and then the pistol should be rotated so that the barrel is pointing towards the ground and be ready to receive loaded rounds. With the barrel pointing towards the ground, gravity helps in getting the rounds into the cylinder. The angle in which the barrel is pointed towards the ground does not have to be extreme just enough to allow gravity to help.
First time I read Mr. Erhardt's article, I read it too fast and missed his description on how to properly load a revolver.
I have never speed loaded a Ruger, so cannot comment.
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It's not like you "passing" the gun from one hand to the other. You're just leaving it in the left hand to eject the empties while the right goes for the reloader. I use the technique even when I'm not "speed" reloading. Well, heck that's practically all the time.
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Thanks Desertmarine for the revamp, I did not include the positioning of the cylinder or muzzle down while at belt level to recharge the cylinder. Since I started this thread ( I'm M25, by the way, M58 is a great guy, but not me ) it seems to have been taken a little off what I intended, but not much. I do not know Mr. Erhardt, or his resume, but I would be surprised if he is a competitive revolver shooter. This was not a personal attack, but an observation on his remark, that I feel very qualified to respond to. Kinda like if Bob Costa, covered a steel challenge match, great announcer and sincere, but not a player. You ever notice how ex boxers, can call a shot that hurts or makes a big difference before the other announcers even saw it. They see the game in real time as an athlete, announcers need feedback, and then respond.
We competitive shooters see the matches on TV the same, We're the people watching who go, " oh that sucks " or " man, great recovery", " that's a new world record!" Because we play the game and know the difference.
By Mr. Erhardt's description, I would surmise that hopping on one leg is more efficient than 2.
I would never prescribe our reloading method for bottom feeders as it would be inefficient.
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Sorry M25, I'll claim "old-timers disease".
Hazcat, I am not familar with your Ruger 45, is it a .45ACP or 45LC? Do you use full-moon or 1/2 moon clips? Agree the Ruger is more massive than K frame S&W. I have a Model 28, Highway Patrolman, that I bought in 1973 that is still going strong. It has been in the rain, dirt, sand, snow, mud, rain and it is massive. I even used it in PPC competiton.
I prefer Safariland Comp 1 speed loaders which you insert rounds in cylinder, push speed loader until it hits tip of ejector rod which then releases rounds and drop speed loader. Nothing to turn. Have used them on K and N frame S&W.
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I used to cary 2 Safariland Comp II loaders in a double pouch for my Dan Wesson. I used it for hunting, not competition and sometimes had different kinds of ammo in each one. No matter how you load, or what kind of shooting you do, I think Safariland will work for you.
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WOOF!!!!!!!!!
Sweet! Freedom Arms?
Magnum Research BFR!!! ;D
Is that the .45/70 ?
YES SIR!!!! ;D
That looks like a Big F****** Revolver. Are you loaded for bear, or buffalo?
Whichever one walks by first! ;D Took a couple new friends out to the gun range a couple months ago, and took this revolver along to really impress them. 8)
I mean look at it. Wouldn't this gun Put a big Smile on YOUR face??? ;D Touching off Hornady Leverevolution ammo in it will rattle your teeth! :-X (My buddies only shot a few reduced power cowboy loads through it. They were a little intimidated by it i think.)
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Just make sure I'm BEHIND you when that monster goes off! ;D
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I hear the Big F'n Revolver in .45-70 actually kicks less than some other big-bore revolvers like .454 Casull and some .44 Mags.
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Well, It doesn't kick LESS, but The shape of the single action grip frame lets the gun rock back in your hand. Which doesn't feel as harsh on he web of your hand as a DA revolver's frame can. But it recoils MUCH, MUCH more than any .44 or .454 I've ever fired.
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Maybe Magunm Research fibs about it. I guess it depends on the ammo too. A non-+P 300 grain .45-70 shouldn't kick as bad as a 405 grain.
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This one doesn't kick as bad as the dump truck slayer,,, WOW!, but its a nice ride.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/pistol004.jpg)
.460 S&W.
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If this is the same guy that used to head Sigs marketing dept, he's a good guy and has a right to his opinion, but jeeze Jerry IS revolvers.
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twyacht,
What are you using for optics?
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If this is the same guy that used to head Sigs marketing dept, he's a good guy and has a right to his opinion, but jeeze Jerry IS revolvers.
I can't argue with that. Some people do, and some people just report on it.
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twyacht,
What are you using for optics?
SWP222, in SS. about $300. Had to suffer the wrath of the wife for a while. :-\ 2X. Here's a link from the S&W site.
http://www.gunaccessories.com/SWOptics/PistolScopes.asp.
Relief was tough at first at arms length, might be my Gumby arms, but I did adjust with a modified Weaver stance that helped immensely. The recoil is like a .44 with standard loads,... Don't shoot it all day, just a few with ammo costs and all,... but nothing like the 45-70 revolver. :o :o :o :o
That really defines "Hogleg!"
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Watched "Magnum Force" with Clint Eastwood and David Soul last night on AMC. In the scene where Eastwood and Soul are competing in the combat course for the championship, the interresting part was the revolver reloads. Eastwood, naturally, is using the M29, with Soul using a Colt Python.
The reload method used by both was to leave the pistol in the shooting hand (SH) and emptying, reloading and closing cylinder with the non-shooting hand (NSH). They opened the cylinder with SH, emptied cylinder with NSH, got a speed loader from their belt or pocket, with NSH, reloaded cylinder, dropped speed loader and closed cylinder with NSH. Areas of loss of time, emptying cylinder, dropping hand to get speed load, go back up to cylinder and load. Other area is closing cylinder with NSH and getting back to shooting stance. Tombogan stated that he uses this method but picks up speed loader before emptying cylinder and has it ready to reload, saves time.
With the method of transferring pistol to NSH when pistol is reloaded NSH which is holding pistol by cylinder with thumb in position to close cylinder as soon as cylinder is loaded. No shifting or positioning of hand. Then the pisol is transferred to SH with NSH in close proximity to affect a reacquiring of shooting hold. Saves time, extremely important.
I realize that Hollywood shooting and real shooting are totally different but the cylinder reloading techniques are basically the same.
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Folks, ease up. The next paragraph:
"I didn’t really understand the dynamics of his reload until I talked to Lisa Farrell. Lisa is the 6-time Women’s ICORE Champion and explained to me how the revolver reload works for mere mortals and how is works for Jerry Miculek."
Is him admitting that he needed clarification to understand Jerry's style. Gotta read the whole thing before you trash the guy. And logically, Jerry's reload might not be the most efficient, but it's the fastest way he can do it, so it is best. Much like a muscle car wouldn't be considered efficient, but will still beat a Prius in a race.
Also, Jerry's style is no better or worse than the two or three alternatives, it's just the style that he's used for 100k+ reloads. I'm sure if he was in the mood to put in that amount of repetitions on a different style, he'd get back to his normal times. What sets Jerry apart is his trigger speed and consistency.
H.
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So a Prius isn't a muscle car?
Only if you plug it into 220V.