The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: WymoreWrangler on September 09, 2008, 07:26:37 PM
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I took my Taurus CIA 850 snubbie out to the range for a little practice on Sunday, I grabbed my 38 "cowboy loads" 158 grain RNFP, 3.7 grains of W231. Even at four to five yards, these were shooting about four inches lows, not uncommon for me, I normally have to take off most of the front sight on all my guns, I had several speed loaders loaded with Federal 110 grain HP, low recoil, on me so I thought I'd see where they printed. First two were POA high, held dead center and put the last three in holes touching themselves, mighty impressive grouping. I check the small Wincehster reloading manual tonight that I've got, if I want to load +P, the starting load is 5 grains of W231. I'm wondering about using my standard 3.7 grains of W231 over the 110 grain HP's for a practice load, is that too low of a charge for this bullet...
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WW, 231 is a very forgiving powder as far as load density go's, you would probably be ok, but load a few and shoot them slow, I'll bet the standard deviation is going to be horrible. My question back to you, the lower the load = recoil, the lower the impact on the target, so I would expect this load is going to shoot low as well. Personally I would go 4.5 grns, still under +p, and a load that has worked well for me, in snubbies and full size pistols.
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The W231 3.7 grains works well for me with the 158 grain RNFP, it's extremely accurate in my cowboy pistols and rifles. I guess I was hoping that I could use the same set up and not have to readjust me SDB for load for this pistol...
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I remember reading in another thread that most pistol powders are designed to generate full pressure in a 6 inch barrel, so what works good in your 5 1/2 inch cowboy pistols will not have the same "oomph" in a 2 inch barrel.
M25, I don't understand why the same load and bullet weight would generate wider standard deviation, I'm fairly new to reloading and would appreciate you explaining this to me. Thank you ;D
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The powder will not be concentrated equally across the case, it will lay on the bottom of a horizontal cylinder, and depending on how the pistol is fired and from what position, the powder concentration could be rearward or forward and not a uniform distance from the primer.
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I checked 3.7 gr of 231 in a .38 case, it fills up roughly 1/3 of the case. As M25 said, the powder might lay in different positions at time of iginition which leads to different velocities for the reasons that he stated. I do more rifle reloading than pistol but some of the basics are the same. Normally you want roughly a 80% loading density for consistent ignition but that is hard to do with powders like 231 and Unique and maybe some other pistol powders. One powder company brought out, a few years ago, powders for Cowboy action that would basically fill the case for consistent iginition. Don't remember who it was or what powder.
I looked up on the Hodgon wedsite and Sierra reloading manual for loading data for the 38. Sierra has data for jacketed bullets and Hogdon for both jacketed and lead. They do not show data for 158 RNFP but show for 158 LSWC. Don't think there should be much different. Shows a minimun of 3.1 grs of 231 and a max of 3.7grs @ 837fps. Needless to say a snubbie will have lower velocities. Looks like you are at Maximum load for 231. Go to Hodgon.com and check them out.
For the 110 HP, they show a 110 Hornady XTP, which is a hp, with 4.6 grs minimum and 5.5 grs max.
As always these are guides, start low and proceed with caution towards max.
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Don't load anything lower than what's listed in the manuals. Sometimes extra light loads detonate instead of burn. Just my $.02 worth.
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The powder will not be concentrated equally across the case, it will lay on the bottom of a horizontal cylinder, and depending on how the pistol is fired and from what position, the powder concentration could be rearward or forward and not a uniform distance from the primer.
Oh, OK, Thanks.
On light loads I know back in the early 70's my Dad and another guy were going to start reloading .38's, the other fellow was a VERY cautious individual and he convinced my Dad that they should load UNDER the charges listed in the manual. When they tried to fire the reloads the primers started to back out before the bullet left the case.
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I've chronographed my cowboy loads in my 1851 Richard and Mason Conversions, that I use as my main match pistols, with 5 1/2 inch barrels, I got around 725 fps. Open tops will normally run lower fps than revolvers with top straps.
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A light load can be as dangerous as a heavy or double load. With a light load pressures can go up very high, pushing out primers and other bad things. Most manuals and powders recommend that you start about 10% lower than max load and build up slowly. I start about 10% low and build up in 1/2 grain increments until I find the load that gives me the accuracy that I want. If the accuracy is not a the velocity/power that I want then the question arises as to whether I am willing to sacrifice accuracy for velocity. Answer depends on intented use of that round. Hunting/self-defense I'll sacrifice accuracy for power (I know, if I have to use it for self-defense, the legal problems) but for target shooting, I'll sacrifice velocity/power for accuracy.
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One powder company brought out, a few years ago, powders for Cowboy action that would basically fill the case for consistent iginition. Don't remember who it was or what powder.
IMR Trailboss
I haven't used it yet I have plenty of Universal Clays and a can of 700x to get through first. Most of my reloading is for 9/40SW/45ACP but I'm looking to get 38 45LC, and 223 eventually