The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Dirty Bob on June 22, 2020, 12:41:19 AM
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I put this here because it's not about the method of building an AR, but asking whether a build is a good idea at this time.
Before the Wuhan Virus, before the demonstrations/riots/looting, before "defund the police," I started purchasing parts for an 80% build. I finally have some time available, so I've started drilling and milling the lower. I'm taking my time and trying to build a "perfect" (for me) 7.62x35mm (300 BLK) carbine. I'm already covered for defensive firearms, so there's no stress in this.
It got me thinking, however, about the many people who are stuck: unable to find anything better for self-defense than a bolt action .30-06. If I were in their shoes, what would I do?
It seems like building a rifle -- which is easier than most people think, especially if you can purchase the complete upper and/or lower from somebody like Palmetto State Armory -- might be the best way to obtain an AR right now.
I browsed Palmetto this evening, and they had both complete uppers and complete lowers in stock. The buyer might not be able to get the "right" options these days, and might have to setting for what's available. Even if PSA is somewhat slow right now, as they try to keep up with the flood of orders, I'd rather have something on the way than nothing available at all for the foreseeable future.
If someone asked me where they could get an AR-15 these days, I think I'd steer them to a complete upper and complete lower from Palmetto. Then I'd suggest that as soon as they got it, we get together at the range to make sure they can operate it safely and to also make sure they can clean and maintain it.
Palmetto may not be Daniel Defense, but I've had no problems with their products and would be willing to suggest them to others.
If they needed something immediately, I'd probably help them in looking for a pump shotgun. At least shotgun ammo (mostly field loads) is still easy to find in my area.
Any thoughts? Where would you steer someone looking for an AR these days?
Regards,
Dirty Bob
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I'm in a similar situation.
I have "need" covered, now I'm looking at "would like to have".
I also was looking around yesterday, and my advice would be to start at CMMG, then Daniel Defense, then PSA, because after seeing the first 2s price PSA will seem down right economical. ;D
Rifle/carbine lowers seem to be plentiful, but pistol lowers seem to be kind of short supply.
Prices on uppers might make you gulp at first, but you have to remember that that it is mostly steel, with all the pressure bearing bits.
Don't forget the chamber brushes. ;D
I've done business with Bear Creek as well, and have no complaints for an upper, but my next lower will be a PSA most likely.
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I don't think there is a "bad time" to buy a gun.... Any gun. Prices along with supply have languished since Trump's election, and up until the whole Corona deal got started. Still, there are some good prices available out there. I think that is because we've been through so many of these gun panics, people are finally caught up on firearms. They're still buying, but not in such a shelf stripping manner as before.
Now it's like Tom say's, it's become a matter of want more than need. People buying today are buying their second, or third, or fifth and sixth AR's. Today we are more accepting of the fact anarchy is not only possible, it's right around the corner. So guns are becoming more of a necessity, than they were just a few years ago. Add in the "stimulus money", and it's an even better time for many people.
Especially with what's happening in Seattle, Portland, and Minneapolis. And of course the dozen-a-day or so murders in Chicago. Add it all up and it's as good time as ever to buy weapons.
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Bill, actually most of the current sales, from a couple of dealers I know are former liberals realizing they DO need a gun, and they are no where near as easy to buy as they have been told.
I keep harping on asking them "What else did they lie to you about ?"
No need to be pushy, just set them thinking deeper for a change.
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just a comment.... I've had good luck with PSA and nitride coatings... both barreled uppers as well as lowers in 9mm and 5.56... my PSA 10.5s are not quite as accurate as my LMT Mk18, but still are <3moa or better with good 69 SMK at 100yd... don't have a cold hammer forged barrel, but think if I were just getting one rifle from PSA, would do so ...I pay a little extra for a Carpenter 158 or 9310 bolt that is high pressure tested and metal particle inspected, and a good 7075-T6 charging handle and not something from PRC....I prefer a pinned front sight tower and if a set screw low profile, will drill and cross pin it with a roll pin...
I got a barreled upper (chrome lined) from DSArms to go on the Colt 6920 lower that Brownells was selling and it shoots very well at 100... haven't been to the 600m range in a couple of years since I've cut down on the 3 gun shooting, and switched to the AR9 PCC
looking at specifications DelTon's LE carbines check the boxes 7075-T6 uppers and lower, 158 bolt and HPT and MPI... but have never shot one
the IWI Zion might be a choice... at the range last week, the polymer pistol display cases were absolutely bare, and all of the less than $1200 ARs were gone from the walls, and any short barrel pump shotgun the same
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I practiced what I preached!
I went through my parts box for some of what I needed. I had a used Anderson pistol lower that's been waiting for a project for a long time. A 300 BLK upper from PSA and a pistol brace completed the package. I topped it with a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot and polymer BUIS.
It's a flame thrower, but it's comforting to have around. All told, it's maybe the best choice I have for home/travel defense. Ear pro's a must if there's a chance to put them on in an emergency.
BTW, I have some other mags, but I liked the color of the 10-rounder for the photo.
No time like the present for a build!
Respectfully submitted,
Dirty Bob
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Nice, Bob!!
Flamethrower, eh?
Indeed, Suh. 8)
I built a 5.56mm pistol a few years on Anderson upper/lower and the guts from Ground Zero Precision in TX. It has a 7.5" barrel because I was going as compact as possible as a traveling companion. With a linear comp that thing blows some flames. ;D ;D
I have a spare PSA stripped lower I picked up a few months ago and might go 10.5" pistol if I don't do a carbine for the wife.
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I have a spare PSA stripped lower I picked up a few months ago and might go 10.5" pistol if I don't do a carbine for the wife.
At least gather the parts! There are some congress critters calling for the banning of gun part sales except through an FFL.
BTW, I chose 300 BLK because it's easy to reload, with lots of component choices. I can load light bullets with something like Trail Boss and make it much less obnoxious, at least for casual shooting or practice.
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We're all going to wind up shooting 9 45 5.56, and 308 because that's what the Army and Cops are handing out.
Be some 40 for a while but I doubt any of the beleaguered manufacturers will bother with it. They'll be using that capacity for 50 cal.
What you have been seeing. The riots, and destruction, The ONLY ways this goes is surrender or slaughter.
The tipping point was passed with the CHAZ (Chapel Hill Autonomous Zone).
That is Mao's step one of establishing Communist base areas .
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We're all going to wind up shooting 9 45 5.56, and 308 because that's what the Army and Cops are handing out.
You might be right. I can make 300 BLK from fired 5.56mm cases, however, and powder-coated cast bullets should work fine.
I sincerely hope we haven't crossed the point of no return. On the other hand, when protestors and/or rioters start moving into neighborhoods and onto private property -- as has been happening in St. Louis* and other locations -- things can turn ugly really fast. Burning of businesses has been happening in downtowns, but anyone who tries to set fire to an occupied dwelling has to be stopped, by any means necessary.
*There's an allegation that the mayor doxed people, and that's why the crowd broke down an iron gate and trespassed onto a private road.
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Hey Bob, That "Doxing" crap works both ways. ;D
https://www.newsweek.com/st-louis-mayor-gives-out-names-addresses-protesters-who-want-defund-police-1513857
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I stand corrected.
I heard a news report that implied that the mayor had doxed that couple who foolishly came out and were waving guns around. Now it looks like the protestors were there for the mayor, and not for the couple who've been playing victim, perhaps to draw attention away from one of them being caught on video pointing a pistol at the crowd.
Looks like bad behavior on all sides. I'm out!
Seriously, in times like these, I don't want to do anything to raise tensions or cause conflict. If a mob comes down my street, I'll be prepared to repel violence, but I don't want to start anything. We all need to remember that cameras are everywhere! If somebody feels they have to come outside visibly armed, a slung AR or a holstered pistol would present a much less provocative image.
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Back on topic: With gun store shelves remaining mostly empty, is anyone helping somebody who waited too long to decide they need a defensive firearm? It looks like there are still some options out there to build something that will do the job without breaking the bank.
I hope those who want a firearm don't sit on their hands any longer! Those of us who know our way around things can and should help our friends.
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Most of my friends and family already have guns and ammo for them. Those who don't I wouldn't give/ loan one of mine to them because they want to take my rights away and can't be trusted with any thing that's sharper than a rubber doughnut.
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I am helping/working with several families in my neighborhood who we know through church. A couple of them already have firearms but are now wanting some training, and another family is in the same frame of mind but only a week or two ago acquired their first firearm (a 9mm Sig whichever one is the one the .mil adopted, fine & motor on). I showed them examples of M&Ps, Glocks, XDs but already everything seemed to be sold out so they jumped on the Sig when they found one.
For a number of years I did the thing a lot of guys do in picking up several NRA instructor certifications and then trying to sell slots in NRA Basic Pistol and the NRA Personal Protection classes. A few years ago I shut down my LLC and don't do classes for $ anymore, I thought it was too much hassle for a hobby job and what I really would rather do is train, and to share training with people who actually want it vs trying to convince a bunch of cheap asses they should go beyond the minimum state CCW class. At some point I got into (and still am into) Project Appleseed and after making it through their instructor training program, I believe for me at least t's better to separate the "making a buck" thing from learning to become a trainer thing.
So, I think it was right to tell these folks (and they seem to appreciate it) that I'll gladly give them the same training experience of NRA Basic Pistol/Personal Protection Inside and Outside the Home, plus other stuff from Mas Ayoob's MAG-40 class and some other trainers at no cost. There is a condition to this though, which is that they do complete enough of the training to be competent.
Whichever set of classes or syllabi you draw from, I think most would agree that means learning
-how to shoot (basic firearms)
- at least a bit on basic defensive handgun/manipulations/tactics/drawing from a holster
- when to fight (ie the legal stuff)
"Checking the box" and getting our state's CWP is a pretty low standard. To come across as a little less of a gun freak about it, I told them I'd settle for getting them up to a competency level each of them would want for any armed person who might come into their house and handle guns around them and their family. Put that way, I think it's easier to appreciate why we want to do better than just getting the permit.
Their graduation exercise will be to go shoot some kind of a match with me nearby, without getting DQd (for a safety or gun-handling issue).
I would feel even better if there were a hundred retired professional ex-door kickers in my neighborhood, but I'm optimistic this will help build a bit more community and hopefully make us all mutually safer.
As far as one of the original questions re getting hardware into new folks' hands, that's tough when it comes to black rifle kind of things. Brownell's still has some of those retro AR special things they're selling, but those and the $3000+ rifles are all I've been able to find recently when I went looking online. The gun panic seems to have accelerated again in the last week even more than it already had been...
If I haven't burned these folks out by this point, this is where I'd like to start getting them thinking about rifles and ARs, which is more to the point of this thread.
Doing an Appleseed and maybe a carbine class would be great, but realistically I think only the small tip of the bell curve of gun owners will approach that many training hours. These folks seem so far to be motivated by a desire to control their own safety, so I'm hoping to keep them on the path after we get through most of the defensive handgun stuff. If I run into any ARs for sale right now though, I'll point them at it...
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Bob, What I've seen is the "protestors" were on private property in a gated community.
The cops are siding with the home owners.
Just looking at the Palmetto State Armory sight, they have plenty of carbine lowers, AR 15, or AR 10, although the "10's" are about 2X the price.
And I don't know about any shortages, I'm getting ads every day like this
https://palmettostatearmory.com/guns.html?trk_msg=8FUKV8MUOIF4J9LJH19VOH0SA0&trk_contact=659IUTCPFFSMD1G4AR7OFIV0LC&trk_sid=V2QV1GUNCPIGAGB75O3TSO5SQS&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=GUNS&utm_campaign=Daily+Deal+Email&utm_content=12%3a00+Email
Edited to add that I just got this one.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/hand-guns/?trk_msg=O4PLBIV6V614V0M7K5B94G17EO&trk_contact=659IUTCPFFSMD1G4AR7OFIV0LC&trk_sid=QD08G99N86LEH8RNV4RAU9FTJ4&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Hand+Guns&utm_campaign=20200630HowToShootAR15&utm_content=Secondary
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You might be right. I can make 300 BLK from fired 5.56mm cases, however, and powder-coated cast bullets should work fine.
I sincerely hope we haven't crossed the point of no return. On the other hand, when protestors and/or rioters start moving into neighborhoods and onto private property -- as has been happening in St. Louis* and other locations -- things can turn ugly really fast. Burning of businesses has been happening in downtowns, but anyone who tries to set fire to an occupied dwelling has to be stopped, by any means necessary.
*There's an allegation that the mayor doxed people, and that's why the crowd broke down an iron gate and trespassed onto a private road.
I do not know about other states but in Kentucky, Arson can be stopped using deadly force. If I see someone attempting to burn down a building or a car that is occupied I will do what I can to prevent it. That includes shooting someone.
I am lucky enough to live in a fairly rural area but I work 1 block from the area they have been targeting in Louisville. I have ordered, but not yet received, a concealable ballistic vest (Safe-Life) for myself and my wife. They should arrive next week. I also ordered a plate carrier with plates (AR500) a month ago but that will take a while, probably 2 months more. I carry a 12 gauge pump shotgun and an AR-15 pistol with brace in my trunk along with a gas mask in case I have to "get the hell out of Dodge". Things are very dicy around here. IMHO there is NEVER a bad time to build another AR.
Always remember, as Micheal says, you ARE your own first responder.
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I need to order a gas mask, Can always use it for "Mandatory mask" places as well . ;D
As for armor, I considered it, then rejected the idea for 2 reasons.
1) Protection versus mobility, it's a trade off.
2) If I learned anything from that braced pistol smacking me in the cheek bone it is depend on what you KNOW.
All I ever used was a flak jacket and didn't have much faith in that.
There's a 3rd reason, I've seen the bruise left from taking a bullet on armor. I don't think getting shot would hurt THAT bad. ;D
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I need to order a gas mask, Can always use it for "Mandatory mask" places as well . ;D
As for armor, I considered it, then rejected the idea for 2 reasons.
1) Protection versus mobility, it's a trade off.
2) If I learned anything from that braced pistol smacking me in the cheek bone it is depend on what you KNOW.
All I ever used was a flak jacket and didn't have much faith in that.
There's a 3rd reason, I've seen the bruise left from taking a bullet on armor. I don't think getting shot would hurt THAT bad. ;D
As far as mobility, I don't have much now. As far as recoil, well it is what it is. But that bruse.... Yep That is gonna hurt. but at least I can go home and kiss my wonderful wife.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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. but at least I can go home and kiss my wonderful wife.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That will hurt too.
Those are some BIG bruises ;D
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That will hurt too.
Those are some BIG bruises ;D
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
That's OK. She is a nurse!! Nothing like a little TLC!
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Good planning. ;D
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Tom... feeling pain means you are still alive
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I'm a cynic, it means the morphine is wearing off.
I've got my scars and issues so I know that "Pain is weakness leaving your body" is BS. ;D
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I'm a cynic, it means the morphine is wearing off.
I've got my scars and issues so I know that "Pain is weakness leaving your body" is BS. ;D
Amen to that. 8)
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I'm a cynic, it means the morphine is wearing off.
I've got my scars and issues so I know that "Pain is weakness leaving your body" is BS. ;D
Pain is pain! All day, all night..did manage to walk a few miles today, though!
I prefer dilaudid...
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<snip> I know that "Pain is weakness leaving your body" is BS. ;D
Exactly. It a catchy phrase for young people....
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That's why the Army and democrats love young people.
They are dumb enough to believe sh!t like that ;D
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The only pain I felt in boot was from the pocket sized nazi little Master Chief whackin yer thumb out of position on the M1 at port arms!
I’m
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Pain? Whats that? After what ammounts too 32 years competing in combat sports. 23 years heavy construction... 14 joint surgeries....
No pain compares to the pain of regret
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A while back in one of the Podcasts, Michael Bane was talking about AR mag well adaptors and mentioned 2 brands he liked that were fairly simple to install.
Any one remember the names ? ;D
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Tom... I don't have the recommendation from MB, but I had good luck with one... what are you looking for?
9mm.... Glock format, or Colt format
45....proprietary or grease gun
9mm magazine to be used in a 5.56 mag well
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9 mm Glock mag in 5.56 mag well .
I haven't really decided which, but hey, it's an AR, Do both ;D