The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on September 29, 2020, 08:36:28 AM
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Last weekend I replaced both my water softener, and my water heater. The softener was shot. (It was old, and wouldn't recharge automatically any more). The water heater was still OK, but I had to drain it, disconnect it, and move it over in order to accommodate the new softener, which is much wider. So I figured I would replace it as well.
Both the softener and water heater are A.O. Smith. I got a good price on both. I first removed the old water heater, then hooked up the new one. Everything went well, with zero leaks. Then I hooked up the new softener, and the damn thing had a small leak by the bypass valve. It would leak a small puddle about the diameter of a beer can in 8 hours or so. It would drain into the brine tank, not on the floor. So I wasn't too worried.
They had stickers all over it saying not to return it to where you bought it, (Lowe's). But rather to call a number for, "technical support" on the sticker. So I did. The guy is sending me the new part, along with 2 new O-Rings to replace. He even E-Mailed me an installation procedure, with photos showing how to remove the old part, and install the new one. (Apparently this happens so frequently they have a procedure for it).
I can't believe I paid good money for a new water softener, and now have to end up fixing it myself. Quality has sure gone to $h!t. You would think on a brand new unit they would at least send a tech out to fix it. If this turns into a nightmare, I'm going to raise hell.
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Bill,
Manufacturers have been producing appliances and other stuff for the big box stores for years. It’s the Walmart method of producing cheap stuff for the masses!
Having worked for Lowe’s myself, I’d never buy anything from them like water heaters.
I no longer have to do this kind of repair but I did for decades both at home and at work producing water systems for de-ionization. I always used an industrial supply house for everything.
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Only a couple of companies, like A.O. Smith, actually make water heaters. Unlike electronics, I don't think there's any difference between what they ship to the big box stores and what they ship to the industrial supply stores. I might even see about getting one on-line, if the shipping is free, next time.
Speaking of water heaters. Mine is natural gas powered and I forgot to put in a Tee in the gas line to trap water when I installed it. A couple years back the gas company replaced all the outside lines and meters in my hood. And before they would turn the gas back on, they inspected all the gas appliances. I got written up because of the lack of the Tee. I promised to fix it the next day (I lied) so they turned the gas back on anyway. Besides it had been that way for over 5 years with no problem.
I eventually gathered the parts to put in the Tee, but I kept thinking: I know that "the code" requires a Tee, but what does the manufacturer say? Why haven't they solved the problem of water in the gas line? (Does "the code" sound like The Pirates Code, which as we all know are more like guidelines?) Anyway I go look up the installation instructions for my heater. GUESS WHAT THEY SAY: "IF a Tee is required by code then...." Well that doesn't sound like THEY think it's necessary. So I call customer support. Oh, they have been well schooled in this question. They won't say a Tee is required. They won't say that a Tee isn't necessary. They have a stock answer which is their only response. "IF your local building code requires a Tee..." "Sir, that is all I'm authorized to tell you."
I decided, considering my heater is over 10 years old, not to bother it. Put the parts away for the next installation.
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I kept hearing much the same thing about expansion tanks for water heaters. Everything from, you're crazy not to have one.... To they're not necessary. I lived in the exact same model, built by the same builder up the hill, back in 1991, and it didn't have an expansion tank. Neither did this house. So I never bothered with it. In fact, I've never lived in a house that ever had one.
I agree with you that there isn't any difference in quality in these units. A given model is manufactured the same, regardless of where it's sold. Think about it. It would be ridiculous to have different quality built into the same model, on the same assembly line. What would they do, announce this next batch is for Home Depot... So start making crap!
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Trust me there is a difference, same with plumbing fixtures.
Facets are the worst. They can have the same part number, nut from the box storea they can be a pound lighter.
Not all do, but there is a difference.
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I kept hearing much the same thing about expansion tanks for water heaters. Everything from, you're crazy not to have one.... To they're not necessary.
Code in the local area required expansion tanks for about 10 years, then they dropped the requirement. Since I do most of my own plumbing I never put one in. Their big concern was when the water companies started putting in back-flow preventers at the meter. They discovered it wasn't the big problem they thought it was going to be.
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The one thing I like about this new water softener, (A.O. Smith AO-WH 350), is the bypass valve assembly is really a nice and solid one piece molded unit. My old one, (Whirlpool), had a bunch of O-Rings and plastic C-Clips, holding connectors that held the main supply lines to the unit. When I went to remove them, the clips just broke right off without hardly any pressure. I easily pulled the connector out with 2 fingers. (This was under city pressure all the time).
The whole thing was a plumbing disaster just waiting to happen. I'm damn lucky I didn't have a flood. The supply lines on this new one screw right into the bypass valve with no couplers, connectors, or clips. It's a nice, solid, direct threaded connection. Nothing can, "blow out". O-Rings have to be installed carefully. And you have to use a bit of lube, and finesse them into place without forcing them. Or else it's easy to pinch and shear them.
I'm guessing that's what happened to mine. Hopefully when I get this part and new O-Rings, I should be good to go. It doesn't look like too bad of a job. But as we all know, looks can be deceiving.
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I’m with TAB!
It’s not a mystery that they cheap stuff down!
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<snip> I always used an industrial supply house for everything.
I am coming around to that way of thinking as well. Better quality products. And for the electrical, cheaper and better than most of what I have purchased at either Lowes or Home Depot. One of my contractors likes to buy from Ace Hardware because it's close to him...their prices are horrible.
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I am coming around to that way of thinking as well. Better quality products. And for the electrical, cheaper and better than most of what I have purchased at either Lowes or Home Depot. One of my contractors likes to buy from Ace Hardware because it's close to him...their prices are horrible.
supply houses for electrial, hvac, plumbing, mill work, flooring and roofing. For what box stores have, they dont have a lot. I spent way too much in them, but when you look at what i am actually buying, its stuff like drywall, 2x stock, basic hardware amd thats about it. Yet its still 6 or 7 figures a year in them.
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Tab I thought you were retired. 8)
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Tab I thought you were retired. 8)
on paper.
I still have a contractual obligations for my company. At least until the 1st of the year. I am not swinging a hammer. This week i have to be in 3 different states. Portland, dfw than oakland. Covid has made the world make no sense.
I have only spent 24k at home depot so far this year. It was mainly stuff for the barn. Life has been a real snafu. Had to buy a house for my mom to recover in. There was no way she was living in a second story condo. It was actually cheaper to buy a house than it was to rent. I figure i can rent it out after my mom can go back to her place. Then sell it after 3 years. Its one of those things, even if she sells her condo and buys something else it will make her payment jump by 700-1000. That is not an option for her.
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Well, as it turns out you guys were right, and I was wrong. I'm now convinced the quality of the big box store products are not the same. My second A.O. Smith water softener started leaking this past week. (It may have been doing it from the start, and I just didn't notice it). This one was leaking from where the electronic flow reader attached to the bypass valve. It was non reparable.
I called Lowe's and told them that was it. I'm done. 2 out of 2 leaking water softeners was enough for me. They were very good about it, apologized, and came and picked up the second softener for no charge, and gave me a full refund. I called a local plumbing outfit I've dealt with here in town, that have been in business for years, and had them them come out and install one of their units.
This new softener was twice the money, but it's an excellent softener. The resin tank is over twice the size for the same grain unit, (35,000 grains). Also the brine tank and resin tank are separate. I'm noticing this is the case with most of the higher quality, more costly softeners. Anyway, the thing works like a champ, and uses much less salt, and regenerates far less often. Over a period of years using less salt and water to regenerate adds up.
This has convinced me from now on when it come to things like valves, faucets, garbage disposals, and water softeners, I'm sticking with plumbing supply houses. I did a little research and found A.O. Smith does not build their own softeners. They contract them from a company called Hague, that produces them in China. (Big shocker there).
For appliances, (stoves, fridges, washing machines, and clothes dryers), Lowe's and Home Depot might be OK. If you stick with higher end, brand name products. And stay away from the Pacific Rim brands. (LG and Samsung). But for items that require a more complicated install, other than plugging them in, I'm going elsewhere.
It's really a shame it has come to this. The concept of having big home improvement stores like Lowe's and Home Depot is a good one.... Then they go and louse it up by selling crappy, inferior products.
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BTW, speaking of crappy brands, stay away fro Dacor. Got roped into an oven and range top. The former is so poorly designed as to be useless for baking, the later they don't have any replacement parts for.
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Years ago, kid was still in HS. My boss gave me a workstation to use at home. It was an HP she had purchased from Walmart.
It needed some repairs and at the time I was fixing computers at work so I took it apart and started looking to replace some internals. First thing I noticed was the unit serial had a funny suffix or prefix. Turns out it was assembled specifically for Walmart.
I replaced most of the parts from Tiger Direct but it never worked too well.
I haven’t bought any electronics from them since. Target ain’t much better.