The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: spencer castle on September 18, 2008, 01:52:52 PM
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fellas how many saw cowboys last nite. sure was sad to see them shoot that tame buff. i am a sportsman and that sure wasnt what we need to show our young that, that was ok. i made my little ones leave the room.i dont see the differance from shooting that buff and shooting a cow.if you are willing to stand for that we as sportsman are in trouble. i begg you tostand against this,i for one never want to see this again
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TROLL ALERT!!
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It's okay, Haz...we can take the heat...this one is particularly funny, however...send the kids out of the room, maybe to McDonalds for a big ole burger! But hey, to each their own...here's the apology...
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Dear sir;
In light of yours and other comments, I would like to apologize for the recent buffalo hunt episode of COWBOYS. The responsibility is mine alone, and I acted against my own better judgement in allowing it. It will not happen again. The problem is that no buffalo "hunt" is a hunt in the sense of an elk, deer or antelope fair chase hunt.
We should have certainly made clear that this was a "culling" rather than a "hunt," which is a legal and quite popular activity. Most large buffalo spreads, including Cook's Bison Ranch (an avid supporter of SASS, which is how this project came about), routinely cull their bulls when they reach a certain age and disposition. Let me make something very clear...the only "free range" buffalo hunts I know of in America are in conjunction with park herds (which are hardly "free range" as we might think of free range), including the Yellowstone herd in the state of Montana, which issues limited by-lottery tags for buffalo who stray outside the Park, and the cull of specific large bulls at Custer State Park in South Dakota.
The rest of the buffalo in the U.S. and Canada are ranched exactly like cattle, to the same end as cattle. Buffalo are meat animals, slated to be "harvested," which is a modern euphemism for "killed, butchered and sold to market." Virtually every "buffalo hunt" we looked at were in fact harvests taken from ranched herds. Buffalo are and never were like elk or deer...buffalo "hunting" even in the old days was less of a question of fair chase as we now use the terminology as a shooting exercise. Current buffalo herds on even the largest American ranches are as hard to track as, say, a train.
The buffalo Tequila shot at 100 yards was slated to be killed because it had become a danger to horses and ranch hands. All parts of the buffalo were used, as is the case with any harvested animal. I was concerned that the open ranch land of Indiana would send the wrong message — as indeed it did! — when compared to the less obvious fenced ranch lands in the West — but to be sure, they are all fenced! — but I made the decision to go ahead with a reenactment of an old days hunt.
Again, if you were offended by the show, my apologies. I hope it doesn't change your overall view of COWBOYS. In the future, hunts we film for any of my shows will be "fair chase" by the strict definition of the wording and we will not participate in culls.
Michael Bane
Series Producer, COWBOYS
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TROLL ALERT!!
Ahhhhhh ... This forum has made the big time!
Twice in two days admonishments have come to our little world.
The only thing I can say to this is 1. Do you understand how the majority of Bison hunts are done in the U.S, and 2. Did you listen to the entire dialog and understand that this was a reenactment type hunt to provide meat for charity. I do not recall anything in this program leading us to believe that this was actual open plains stalk and hunt. I have researched several types of big game hunts, and I had no problem understanding that this was nothing more than a method of culling an animal from the heard while giving a sportsman a chance to understand what it was like to harvest the animal with a period type weapon.
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Damn ....
Michael typed while I typed. Even more amazing is that my understanding of what happened was what took place.
Michael, I don't see anything wrong with showing this type of harvest. It is a legitimate type of experience for many that have limitations. The only thing I would say is maybe a little more education as to what these types of things are all about. If you back off on this completely what will come next? Will you not show competitions where a target could represent a person?
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never said that the meat was going to be waisted,we eat a lot of god animals,but if you guys take part in this you need to keep this type of (hunting)to your self. i would be ashamed to tell any one i took part in this. and gtell your freinds that you are not man enough to hunt a real fair game animal TROLL
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I never heard of anyone shooting a buffalo in a cage before. When and where exactly did this happen? If it's just like shooting a cow, then what's the problem. You have to kill them before you can butcher and eat them. They don't just die on their own whenever you want them to, but maybe we can convince some to commit suicide.
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Nobody shot a buffalo in a cage...sigh...we culled out a ranch bull...just so we're all clear on this, animals get to be meat by being dead. A "bolt gun" to the head or a vintage rifle, I suspect the animal doesn't care one way or another. I definitely don't want to wade into the morass of what is and is not "fair chase" — although I will readily agree that no buffalo hunt in the United States today meets the criteria of "fair chase." Nor do, strictly speaking, a lot of preserve bird hunts or high fence hunts.
But for an animal born and raised to be killed and butchered, going back to the earlier question, the animal is going to die, does it matter how? Is it somehow better that the kill takes place off-screen, behind the closed doors of a slaughterhouse, and that our next contact with the "animal" is in a neat, hermetically-sealed plastic package...or on a menu? Ironically, I do think it matters how the animal dies, and lives...as much as I love turkey, I will only eat turkey that has been hunted or turkey from a farm I have direct knowledge of, because I think animals ought to have a life of some sort before the harvest. But that's a personal choice (Farmer Frank James and I have argued about this very subject more than once!).
On the humanoid target issue, however, that's a battle I've already fought...and won!
Michael B
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If there wasn't a buffalo in a cage then why is the name of this thread, "caged buffalo hunt"? You can't just make up a name for something and pretend it exists, like "assault weapons", and make an issue out of something non-existent without expecting some backlash from people who DON'T have their heads up their collective a$$. Is that some kind of 1984 Orwellian double-speak? Or some kind of extreme left Socialist version of a Jedi mind trick? If you say it, that makes it real, and that makes it a problem? Yeah, right.
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Frank! I totally agree!
mb
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So it realliy is just a troll trying to stir up trouble?
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I watched the same episode, and to me it was perfectly clear that it was a cull hunt. Hell on one of Uncle Ted's shows he shot a lamb in a cage, at least the buff was out walking around.
If you don't want your meat killed, I think that is just plain sick. Or are we witnessing the emergence of vampire or zombie problem? Remember, on zombies only head shots do the job. ;D
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So it realliy is just a troll trying to stir up trouble?
Bigger and uglier than Mimi on The Drew Carey Show, jumbofrank.
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Holy cow! (or rather...Bull) what is this, a PETA website? Can you only be a man if you chase a goat across the Himalayas before shooting it...and how many times? I've seen instances where well-intentioned "real men" put an animal through hell on a "real" hunt- a couple of times on HUNTING SHOWS!!!. Come on guys, nothing always goes right, and the producer's ideas aren't always jems. Sometimes they are turds, but that is for another thread.
How close or far, and from what kind of weapon qualifies a shot as humane or appropriate? I have another question too...If you HAVE to cull and animal, which is an every day occurance, it SHOULD be confined so that the kill is clean and humane, not chasing the damn thing all around a pasture trying to put it out of it's misery because it squirmed or jerked at just the wrong time?
My not so humble opinion is that we can learn from everything and if an animal is to be culled we can learn from witnessing the event if we feel it's appropriate. Obviously it's not for some folks and kids. That's where that "real man" common sense comes in.
I try to be friendly and gracious in my postings (well....I try) but I have to beleive that spencer castle either has great big figs or simply doesn't give a s*** to start out on his first or second post with a complaint about MB's work. Our host has provided us with an ever-expanding source of information and comraderie with people of like interests. There's a lot here for all if one doesn't alienate oneself.
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Two points.
1) How many ranch hands or horses might have gotten injured getting that old boy to the killing pen?
2) Great shot Tequila, very humane and for a good cause.
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There was NO caged hunt. Sounds like a newbie just wanted some cheese with that whine.
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some of my fellow lurker's should.
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I think its time to get UNCLE TED in on this thread ;D. He and MB would both be on the same page on this one. Thats why all TV's come with a remote. Watch it or don't its your choice. +1 MB on taking the time to explain. Although I don't see why you had too
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Hey, I shot my 3 buffalo for the same reasons, only my freezer was the "charity" I did give some away too.
I shot two in pens at the place where the guy with the front loader helped me. He had a reefer unit too, so I was able to quarter them and hang 'em for 10 days.
One of the cows would not trailer, so I ended up shooting her on the run in my corral. That was an interesting experience, especially as I am not an experienced hunter.
MB is right, we ranchers raise animals for food mostly, except my horses.
Now if someone can just fill me in on this Troll Alert nonsense.
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Wisconsin, your right, that's why Michael is worth the +1 or 20 he gets. He didn't have to, but in case the poster was in the dark or just misunderstood, Michael was trying to Explain, Not defend. How many forums are there where you actually hear from the founder, and you can respond back? This is Michaels grand experiment along with Marshall and M'Ette, I think it shows his character as well as he is always checking in on his experiment. With all the projects he has going on, you will see his name highlighted daily as having been here in the last 2 hours at some point in the day. 8)
I even heard he makes up aliases and avatars and posts silly stuff just to test us. :-X
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I'm kind of a stickler for the facts. The fact is, there are no buffalo in North America!
They are American Bison and, you can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that there are any herds of bison left in the Americas that have not been genetically linked to common cattle.
The only true buffalo on the earth is the Cape Buffalo and even if he were in a cage, I wouldn't get near one with out some serious firepower!!!!! :)
All in good fun kids....
tim
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I just liked seeing the power of the .454 Casull. 2000 lbs at 100 yards dropped pretty much like a stone! :o
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One more thing, up here in the Great North, we call it a canned hunt, not a caged hunt. Now I think I will go kill something and eat it. Wasn't it John Denver that said "Thank God I'm a carnivore" ?
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A wise man (not me) once said;
"If'n God didn't want us to eat all his critters, he wouldn't have made 'em out of MEAT!!!!!
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Hey, I shot my 3 buffalo for the same reasons, only my freezer was the "charity" I did give some away too.
I shot two in pens at the place where the guy with the front loader helped me. He had a reefer unit too, so I was able to quarter them and hang 'em for 10 days.
One of the cows would not trailer, so I ended up shooting her on the run in my corral. That was an interesting experience, especially as I am not an experienced hunter.
MB is right, we ranchers raise animals for food mostly, except my horses.
Now if someone can just fill me in on this Troll Alert nonsense.
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
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A wise man (not me) once said;
"If'n God didn't want us to eat all his critters, he wouldn't have made 'em out of MEAT!!!!!
I'm not that wise but I say if God didn't want us to eat all those critters he wouldn't have made them taste so darned good. :P
BTW beefalo is great too. Part beef, part "buffalo". I still don't know why people call bison buffalo. It's like calling a pronghorn an antelope because it resembles one. Someone thought each new world animal looked like an old world one so we're stuck with inaccurate nicknames centuries later.
So now I know the "caged buffalo hunt" didn't even involve a cage, OR a buffalo, OR a hunt. It was a bison culling. We need some T-R-O-L-L-A-I-D-S to get rid of the gas and upset. ;D
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I haven't read all the posts yet, only got as far as "Spencer Castle's second post, but it's blindingly obvious that this guy knows squat about Buffalo hunting or history.
The "real" buffalo hunters of the old west who hunted the big herds on the open prairie, So called "Free Range", Like Billy Dixon, Buffalo Bill Cody, and Wild Bill Hickock, would set up a shooting position over looking a herd and then they would shoot for HOURS day after day. Buffalo are not very excitable animals , or else they are just dumb, because when one went down, others nearby would look over and go back to grazing. In one year in the late 1860's (1869 I think) hunters took 10 MILLION buffalo. On his first hunting trip to the Dakota's Teddy Roosevelt shot what he later thought to be one of the last buffalo in the territory, that was in 1889, a mere 20 years later. It was one of the things that led him to become one of the first Conservationists.
If you think it's so terrible to shoot a ranched buffalo, then the way your beef is harvested will make you puke. They line up the cows to be slaughtered in neck racks so they can't move then they go down the line with a pneumatic hammer and each one gets thumped between the eyes then its throat is slit.
your overly protected children probably think "Meat" comes from the store. Wake up ! It's ALL dead critters, and it used to be the job of the wife or kids to cut a chickens head off for Sunday dinner.
Now back under your bridge, you have no powers here. ;D
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Now back under your bridge, you have no powers here. ;D
LOL. Good one Tom.
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An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
Biggest problem trolls have on THIS forum is that WE LOVE a good argument ;D Probably frustrates the hell out of them ;D
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There's a guy on the ATV forum I'm a member of who's been there less than a week. If anyone mentions Polaris he says "you can't spell POlariS without POS". It doesn't matter if millions of people have them and love them, it's still a POS because Mr. n00b says so! So much for the free exchange of information and ideas. Some trolls are brand specific like him and some are topic specific, but it seems like most forums have trolls. They have nothing better to do than waste everyone's time with their poison pen, and try to make other people as miserable as they must be. You can't please them, and you can't kick their a$$, so I try to find out the facts and make everyone else aware of them. I TRY not to lower myself to their level but sometimes I can't take it anymore and I'll say anything I think I can get away with, without getting banned. That's not productive either, but if someone starts a bunch of sh*t with me they better be prepared to finish it. If anyone has a picture of a buffalo in a cage being hunted they should post it. If not... well, I better bite my tongue this time. :P
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There's a guy on the ATV forum I'm a member of who's been there less than a week. If anyone mentions Polaris he says "you can't spell POlariS without POS". It doesn't matter if millions of people have them and love them, it's still a POS because Mr. n00b says so! So much for the free exchange of information and ideas. Some trolls are brand specific like him and some are topic specific, but it seems like most forums have trolls. They have nothing better to do than waste everyone's time with their poison pen, and try to make other people as miserable as they must be. You can't please them, and you can't kick their a$$, so I try to find out the facts and make everyone else aware of them. I TRY not to lower myself to their level but sometimes I can't take it anymore and I'll say anything I think I can get away with, without getting banned. That's not productive either, but if someone starts a bunch of sh*t with me they better be prepared to finish it. If anyone has a picture of a buffalo in a cage being hunted they should post it. If not... well, I better bite my tongue this time. :P
I gather that the "cage" was several acres. This guy got confused between "caged" and "canned". from what MB posted earlier Tequila made his shot from about 100 yards.
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"fellas how many saw cowboys last nite. sure was sad to see them shoot that tame buff. i am a sportsman and that sure wasnt what we need to show our young that, that was ok. i made my little ones leave the room.i dont see the differance from shooting that buff and shooting a cow.if you are willing to stand for that we as sportsman are in trouble. i begg you tostand against this,i for one never want to see this again"
"never said that the meat was going to be waisted,we eat a lot of god animals,but if you guys take part in this you need to keep this type of (hunting)to your self. i would be ashamed to tell any one i took part in this. and gtell your freinds that you are not man enough to hunt a real fair game animal "
Where in these two posts do you all get that he is against killing animals for meat? Sounds to me like he is commenting that he wouldn't call what he saw "hunting". He's expressing an opinion on the content of a television show - and then with the exception of MB's explanation/apology he is insulted and criticized for four pages because most disagree.
As for the "caged buffalo" title maybe it is sleazy, maybe it is a mistake, or maybe there is another reason he used the term. I'm curious myself but rather than assume he is a liberal undercover operative because he dares to have a different opinion than I do, I'll give him a chance and ask:
"spencer castle", why did you call it a caged hunt?
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Does Spencer Castle have an Ivory Tower? :D
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A wise man (not me) once said;
"If'n God didn't want us to eat all his critters, he wouldn't have made 'em out of MEAT!!!!!
Yes there was, and there was another wise man that said "All of God's creatures have a place ... right between the potatoes and vegetables on my plate."