The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: wisconsin on September 26, 2008, 04:58:31 PM
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I keep hearing of these type of ammo brands but can't find anyone or any info on them. All I can find at Sportsmans Warehouse or Midway USA is the SXT brand. I'm looking at the 9mm 147 gr. type for my Browning HP . I heard through Browning HP forum that the FBI went with the Ranger Bonded JHP instead of the T-series what ever the hell that means. Any direction or schoolin I can getts would help.
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Black talon isnt available anymore...... Its the evil "Cop Killer" bullet. It was pulled from the market in 2000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon,_ammunition
The ammunition was targeted by those opposed to handguns,[5] and the reputation was very different in the public,[6]and eventually the Talons became to be known by the moniker "Cop-Killer" bullets.[7] The hype of the Black Talon ammunition was the black coating on the bullets themselves. There were false rumors that the bullets were armor piercing and could penetrate the Kevlar vests worn by police officers.[8][9]. To further the controversy, some medical personnel claimed that the sharp barb like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection, [1] however there are no documented reports of this actually happening.[10]
In 1996 a lawsuit was filed (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996) claiming that Olin Corp should be liable for a shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. The claims against Olin were dismissed because it was held that the bullets were not defectively designed.[11]
Winchester bowed to pressure and in 1993 removed the ammunition from public sale for a time,[12] and eventually law enforcement also bowed to the pressure, but at no time(including presently) was it, nor is it, illegal to possess the Black Talon ammunition.
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Actually the SXT ammo is an IMPROVED Talon. I remember hearing about Winchester taking out an ad in some paper, probably the Washington Post or Wall Street Journal, saying it was removing the Black Talon line from the catalog and replacing it with something BETTER.
You can still find it out there but you pay a premium. The Ranger JHP ammo I have gotten over the years looked pretty much like the SXT in a package marked LE only. Didn't seem to shoot any different.
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SXT WAS the Deep Penetrating Supreme Expanding Talon but not anymore. The "improvement" was getting rid of the talons. Now you can buy the new SXT (Black Talon substitutes) that aren't black and don't have talons. Why bother? I had a case of the real ones and sold them this year for close to 100% profit, which was still a lot less than anyone else was selling them for. If you can still find any they will probably be at least $40 for 20 rounds. BTW the black part of the Black Talons was the Lubalox coating that works the same way as moly coating. It had less friction and gave the bullets higher velocity and therefore more power, and lower pressure too. It was awesome, but they pulled it off the civilian market after a shooting spree on a New York subway in December 1993 mentioned by ericire12. Winchester/Olin ammunition got sued, Ruger got sued for making the pistol, and Ram-Line got sued for making the magazines for it too.
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Actually the SXT ammo is an IMPROVED Talon. I remember hearing about Winchester taking out an ad in some paper, probably the Washington Post or Wall Street Journal, saying it was removing the Black Talon line from the catalog and replacing it with something BETTER.
You can still find it out there but you pay a premium. The Ranger JHP ammo I have gotten over the years looked pretty much like the SXT in a package marked LE only. Didn't seem to shoot any different.
Amen...I bought a box at a gun show several years back and paid $45 for a box-o-twenty. Still got 'em too.
Switched to Cor-Bon and never looked back.
http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/convjhp.htm
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SXT WAS the Deep Penetrating Supreme Expanding Talon but not anymore. The "improvement" was getting rid of the talons. Now you can buy the new SXT (Black Talon substitutes) that aren't black and don't have talons. Why bother? I had a case of the real ones and sold them this year for close to 100% profit, which was still a lot less than anyone else was selling them for. If you can still find any they will probably be at least $40 for 20 rounds. BTW the black part of the Black Talons was the Lubalox coating that works the same way as moly coating. It had less friction and gave the bullets higher velocity and therefore more power, and lower pressure too. It was awesome, but they pulled it off the civilian market after a shooting spree on a New York subway in December 1993 mentioned by ericire12. Winchester/Olin ammunition got sued, Ruger got sued for making the pistol, and Ram-Line got sued for making the magazines for it too.
Ranger T is the Leo SXT. Unfortunately, both boxes say SXT. You need to know the rest of the product code to get the T's. T's still have the fangs, SXTs do not, as Frank says. Winchester tries to keep T sales to PD's only.
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The improved civilian SXTs I had are declawed like an old house cat. I didn't say HazCat!!! It's like the claws were CLIPPED off. So as far as I can tell, they're Black Talons without the black or the talons. I've seen pictures of the LEO Ranger ammo but never seen it for sale to us regular people. What I saw in a MAGAZINE had the claws but didn't have the black Lubalox coating so it's still not the same as Black Talons. There may be more variations too.
BTW I'm using Cor-Bon ammo in my bedside .45. I have it loaded with Pow'R-Balls but will be buying some short-barrel DPX for it and some other DPX (+P) for one of my of other .45s.
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(http://www.rtgammo.com/images/44magblktal7722.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1348/626128094_bcf3e8728e.jpg?v=0)
(http://www.btfh.net/shoot/images/bullet-test-7/9-bt.jpg)
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Nice pics. Some doctors were whining about how the claws could cut through two pairs of rubber gloves when they pulled bullets out of someone. They were woried about getting diseases. I say quit whining and use forceps like anyone else would.
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These bullets are not in any way illegal to own or use, but I personally would not use them.
It would not be very difficult for a trial lawyer to use them to sway a jury. I know I would personally hate to be sitting in court and have an attorney going on and on to a jury about how I shot someone with those "evil black bullets", or have a jury go into deliberation and talk about why I was carrying "Cop Killers".
JMHO
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I presently carry Black Talons in my .40, I bought up all I could b4 they stopped production. They are a little older than I like so I'm shooting them up and moving to another round. The ranger sxt is supposed to out perform the talon, if you can find them. Federals HST is said to be the best round on the market, who knows.
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Some conflicting information around this thread. What's the straight skinny?
Also...I like the Expanding Full Metal Jackets that Federal has out...more like blunt trauma.
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These bullets are not in any way illegal to own or use, but I personally would not use them.
It would not be very difficult for a trial lawyer to use them to sway a jury. I know I would personally hate to be sitting in court and have an attorney going on and on to a jury about how I shot someone with those "evil black bullets", or have a jury go into deliberation and talk about why I was carrying "Cop Killers".
JMHO
I have to agree with this...I've read some experts that preach that you should use ammo used by the local pd and you use a stock pistol for carry. Fancy, deadly ammo and a lot of do-it-yourself tweaking to a pistol to lighten the trigger or whatever can be THE BEST ammo for a prosecutor looking to put you away for defending yourself. A trigger job by a gunsmith is understandable, but a lot of custom tweaking can be twisted into malicious intent...you were just "itchin'" for the chance.
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I have to agree with this...I've read some experts that preach that you should use ammo used by the local pd and you use a stock pistol for carry. Fancy, deadly ammo and a lot of do-it-yourself tweaking to a pistol to lighten the trigger or whatever can be THE BEST ammo for a prosecutor looking to put you away for defending yourself. A trigger job by a gunsmith is understandable, but a lot of custom tweaking can be twisted into malicious intent...you were just "itchin'" for the chance.
+1 on jaybethel and ericire12. That's why you should NEVER use reloaded ammo in your carry gun either. Regular ammo not deadly enough? Trying to REALLY mess people up? I'd hate to be tried under those circumstances.
Black Talons were IMO one of the very best of the "magic bullets" ever made to meet FBI standards. The reverse taper jacket was more important to the design than the black color or the talons. I think Hydra-Shoks were the first to pass the FBI tests and were followed soon after by Black Talons, Starfires, Golden Sabers, XTPs, and all the rest. They're all great bullets that are tough enough to penetrate glass and sheet metal and will still expand. I just wouldn't carry the Black Talons for the already stated reason when the rest of the group perform about the same.
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+1 on jaybethel and ericire12. That's why you should NEVER use reloaded ammo in your carry gun either. Regular ammo not deadly enough? Trying to REALLY mess people up? I'd hate to be tried under those circumstances.
Actually there has never been an issue of reloaded rounds in any court in any state. In a justiifiable shooting. So a lawyer has said on another forum.
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Actually there has never been an issue of reloaded rounds in any court in any state. In a justiifiable shooting. So a lawyer has said on another forum.
Consider the source (Anonymous guy on the Internet)
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Consider the source (Anonymous guy on the Internet)
Worse. Anonymous lawyer.
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I sure we would of heard about it. Im trying to find the link, Its been awhile , sorry.
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Nice pics. Some doctors were whining about how the claws could cut through two pairs of rubber gloves when they pulled bullets out of someone. They were woried about getting diseases. I say quit whining and use forceps like anyone else would.
thats the biggest load of crap I have heard( I've heard it before) When person is shot, there is a very good chance there will be lots of very sharp things in the wound, hell bone fragments can be almost as sharp as a razor. I bet those are encounters alot more often then an "killer bullet". Thats all political BS, Anyone that uses thier profession to further thier political agenda, needs to be bared from that profession.
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thats the biggest load of crap I have heard( I've heard it before) When person is shot, there is a very good chance there will be lots of very sharp things in the wound, hell bone fragments can be almost as sharp as a razor. I bet those are encounters alot more often then an "killer bullet". Thats all political BS, Anyone that uses thier profession to further thier political agenda, needs to be bared from that profession.
I agree. Can we put congressmen at the front of that line?
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They were woried about getting diseases.
Nationally, according to statistics, only 2 out of 10 doctors and nurses bother to wash their hands between patients. I have first hand experience with being infected while in the operating room. Doctors need to shut up and do their jobs..they nearly killed me without firing a shot....
T
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I agree. Can we put congressmen at the front of that line?
+++1 ;D
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Nationally, according to statistics, only 2 out of 10 doctors and nurses bother to wash their hands between patients. I have first hand experience with being infected while in the operating room. Doctors need to shut up and do their jobs..they nearly killed me without firing a shot....
T
Didn't write this myself...read it somewhere else. It may not be hard facts, but it IS a plausible argument:
Doctors And Guns
11-27-6
FACTS TO PONDER
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.
Now think about this...
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million..)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188
Statistics courtesy of the FBI
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember - "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.
http://www.rense.com/general74/docs.htm
How about doctor control instead?
People want gun control but it's not guns that kill; it's the people who use them who kill, and the killers will get guns off the streets just like drugs, no matter what you do. How about the reality of accidental deaths? More than 100,000 people a year die at the hands of doctors, and accidental gun deaths are less than 2,000. With those statistics, maybe we should be banning doctors?
http://www.aikenstandard.com/0130talkback
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Only in America and in 2008 need one worry about legal issues after defending themselves or God forbid shooting someone who has broken into your home and it was you or him.
As for the basic toipc of Rangers and Black Talons the Ranger line pretty much follows what Winchester releases as home defense ammo. The Rangers are just plain jane traditional versions with no silver tips or Lubalox coatings. As for Black Talons after conducting my own tests it is in all of my handguns. They are over priced but oh well it's no different than my $500 Shoei GSX-R helmet. I have the Ranger SXT's that are 90% the same but are to modest I guess.
Then again at $40 a box I will take a few more attempts at halting the intruder before taking action.
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Here is some more info on ballistics........
Re: Law Enforcement/Military Cartridge Effectiveness Study
Conducted 1995 - 1996
In the recent past, performance tests were conducted to determine the ballistic effects of different weapons and ammunition on flesh and bone targets, living and dead, and to determine the efficacy of different types and designs of body armor in defeating the threats presented by these projectiles.
The following information was taken from the personal notes of an experienced law enforcement observer in the field of forensics from a large western law enforcement agency.
The final reports were proprietary to armor manufacturers who funded the research as well as being classified as proprietary/ confidential by certain government agencies that placed a gag order on distributing data from the report. The report itself can't be distributed, however, the individual mentioned above was under no such constraint to not discuss what he saw and wrote down in his personal notes.
It should be noted that on at least two other different occasions in the past, the U.S. Army has conducted similar tests on unarmored subjects. The first of these was a handgun test in conducted in 1904 that resulted in the adoption of the .45ACP cartridge as the military standard and the second was convened in June of 1928 and dubbed the “Pig Board” due to it's use of pigs as test subjects. The purpose of the Pig Board was to determine the most effective cartridge for use in military rifles against human targets. That exercise resulted in the identification of a .276 caliber (approximate 7mm) high velocity bullet as the optimum choice. That choice was not put into practice, although the M1 Garand was developed in a working model for it, because a high ranking general of the time (General Douglas MacArthur) insisted on using the already developed .30/06 cartridge; which was more powerful anyway. Thus the Army adopted the M1 Garand in .30/06 caliber, which was later changed to the .308 caliber. The .308 caliber approximated the results of the .276 in a larger diameter projectile. This choice was probably precipitated by the popular manufacture of commercial weapons in the .308 caliber.(1)
In the current modern test instance, tests were conducted on human cadavers, live pigs and ballistic gelatin, both unprotected and protected by modern body armor. Test weapon types were rifles, shotguns and pistols. There was about fourteen months of research conducted.
(Note: Cadaver research is common, as Coroners and Medical Examiners receive hundreds of unclaimed cadavers or donated ones that are unsuitable for the usual medical research. They are then used for other forms of research with Medical examiner and/or coroner approval. Cadavers are tested with respect, the faces and bodies covered, only the area tested is exposed. After use, the Coroner examines tissue damage to gage injury, wound channels, secondary projectiles, armor failure or internal injury from vest success with high energy projectile stops).
The research was conducted in phases:
Rifles, shotguns and then handweapons, in that order.
Cadavers with body armor.
Cadavers without body armor.
Live pigs with body armor.
Live pigs w/o body armor.
Testing confirmed that in most instances the lighter Hollow Point (HP) projectiles (.380, 9mm, .40 cal.) open prematurely or do not open at all, the HP cup filling with target medium, turning itself into lighter ball ammo, or the HP projectile takes a different path from the flight path upon entering the target medium, resulting in non lethal hits or lesser wounds than intended due to deflection of the projectile from the unstable HP cup reacting to hydrostatic pressure from impact with the target medium (veering off course, so to speak).<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#2">(2)
Heavier Ball ammo (any round of 200gr weight or greater) such as .45ACP 230 gr., .44 Special 246 gr., .45 LC 255 gr., .38 Special 200 gr. LRN,<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#3">(3) all followed the intended flight path, even upon hitting bone. These projectiles gave the best observed handgun performance in creating damage that would be consistent with producing incapacitation of a human target with the fewest possible shots fired. They also did not exit the cadaver torso as the energy was invariably shed in the target, leaving no apparent energy for over-penetration and exit<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#4">(4). Exit wounds did occur with face shots, head shots and extremities, face shots causing imparting of secondary velocity to teeth and chunks of bone, creating secondary fragment projectiles.
In terminal ballistics, all HP's of the same approximate weight and approximate velocity are equal in performance. Velocities in handguns are essentially insufficient to provide predictable opening when necessary or desired in human targets. The most effective HP's in .45ACP are those that retain the original weight of 230 gr. as they will continue to function as well as ball ammo, whether they open or not.
Testing was also done on a comparison of handgun ammunition between hard cast lead, swaged lead and semi-jacketed soft point to FMJ. Testing was only done to examine the types of wounds produced, not for armor protection as none of those projectiles in handgun loads, including .44 Magnum and .454 Casull can penetrate level IIA or III body armor. Hard alloy lead (like linotype metal) performed somewhat like FMJ and bored straight through. To be exact, #2 Lyman chilled 230 gr. .45's were tested on cadavers and they duplicated FMJ results. Softer lead gave surprising results<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#5">(5), in that it deformed on impact but pushed ahead through bone and flesh and shed its velocity and energy quicker, stopping 3 to 5 cm earlier than FMJ. In other words, it produced a MORE violent stopping effect than harder leads. This result also duplicates the Army findings from the 1904 tests. It is problematic for modern law enforcement use, however, as soft lead does not feed reliably in semi-automatic pistols. It's use is outstanding, however, in revolvers as there is no feed travel problem.
Further tests with handgun projectiles custom made of steel or brass drill rod or solid copper rod with a slight truncated cone shape and fired at magnum velocities penetrated level IIA vests and damaged and compromised the level III. These loadings were in .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum.
In defeating armor, the lighter, less than common 7.62x25 Tokarev in it's high velocity variant (Czech round for the vz52 at 1700fps) can penetrate earlier versions of body armor, but newer level IIA will stop it. In the unprotected body, it tends to penetrate on a straight line, as did the old .357 pointed ball, sold in the 50's through the 80's, but does less damage along it's path than the heavier bullets.
Tests indicated that longarm (rifle/shotgun) torso wounds on unarmored targets from modern cartridges are devastating except for the M193 5.56x45mm Ball and similar projectiles which required multiple hits to create lethal stop damage.
Using body armor, no existing body armor except IIA and III levels with ceramic inserts or laminate inserts will stop high-power rifle rounds such as 30-30 or 7.62x39mm Russian. As an example, level III was penetrated by a 30-30 loaded with a 150 gr. PBT (Pointed Boat Tail), while a 150 gr. Soft Point did not penetrate the vest. In either case the wearer would have been injured.
Ceramic and laminate inserts will stop even 30-06 Armor Piercing (AP) projectiles. Curiously, German 7.92mm AP Ball has the greatest range of effective penetration potential of all the standard military calibers. Probably due to the higher sectional density of the heavy 198 gr. 7.92mm bullet.
Under 50-75 yds most AP is no more effective than regular rounds as it has not developed critical velocity/energy for penetration. From 125 out to 250 yards, penetration is almost guaranteed. This occurs as the high velocity AP projectile is still gaining speed<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#6">(6) and stability out to 125 yards or more.
There are standard hunting rifle cartridges capable of level IIA and III penetration, although it requires a little handloading, or at least replacement of the FMJ with a different type bullet of the same weight. Solid copper projectiles or projectiles turned from brass drill rod will penetrate the level IIA and III with ceramic inserts. These rounds do not break up like FMJ. Projectile weight must be 165 gr. or over. Velocities must be the same as standard high velocity rifle.
Experimentation was conducted with .30-06 AP projectiles pulled from the original cartridges and reloaded in .300 Winchester Magnum (Win Mag) cartridges. They penetrated level IIA and III like butter. It seems the high velocities unachievable in a military gas-operated gun, but simple in a .300 Win Mag bolt gun, makes those old AP penetrators incredibly efficient. They penetrated mediums and combinations of mediums that would have never been considered possible with .30-06 or its sister military calibers in their standard loadings.
It should be noted that if a wearer is protected from certain death wearing high protection armor, the wearer may not escape injury. It has been shown that with solid perpendicular hits the wearer may suffer some form of cardiac impairment form the impact, almost guaranteed separation of the sternum from the rib cage, broken ribs, etc.
But, if a large caliber magnum rifle is used - such as .338, .300, .375 in Win Mag calibers (they were the most consistent) and loaded with SOLID Spitzer Boat Tails, no body armor would stop it. Spitzer Boat tails are THE projectile. They work better than anything else in the AP mode.
It should also be noted that the U.S. Military has developed new armor piercing rounds in .50 BMG and 7.62x51mm that will defeat any of these body armors with extreme ease. They are called <A href="http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/winchester/index.html">“Sabot Light Armor Penetrating” or SLAP cartridges. These consist of a relatively sharp pointed tungsten carbide “dart” of a smaller diameter than the weapon's bore encased in a plastic sabot to bring it up to caliber. The projectile is fired at very high velocities and it sheds the sabot on the way to the target. As an example, the .50 BMG SLAP round uses a .415 gr. projectile fired at a speed of 4000 fps (78 ft. from muzzle). It will penetrate approximately .750 ( ¾) inches of high-hardness steel armor at a range of 1500 yards.
Although these tests appear conclusive, the scientific acceptance is tainted by the perceived need for secrecy. This perceived need was driven by two factors, one is a potential profit motive of ballistic vest manufacturer(s) co-sponsoring the tests, while the second is the perceived negative political atmosphere in which such tests may be received by certain anti-weapon activist groups.
It would certainly be important to military and law enforcement agencies if these tests could be replicated in an acceptable enough political atmosphere to make public release of the information acceptable. This office, therefore, recommends such a study be undertaken by the appropriate military agency.
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The main reason for carrying factory ammo in a self defense gun is so your lawyers can duplicate the shooting results with ammo from the same lot. different powders may produce the same terminal effect BUT the powder residue can and usually will be different. Some powders have a bigger muzzle flash some none at all, some will leave residue 12 inches from the muzzle of the firearm others will send a trail 10 feet. The difference could mean a claim of the wound being at contact distance or from across the room. Now if you said the person you shot was across the room but the forensic guys claim it was at contact distance who will the prosecutors believe? Now they ask you What brand of ammo were you using, You claim that you had some reloads in the gun. Were the reloads loaded with Red Dot, 2400, Win 231 etc etc...different loads but all the same velocity/terminal effect but way different burning rates. Massad Ayoob wrote about this happening to a person who ended up in jail for murder after his wife committed suicide with a pistol and ammo that he supplied to her for self defense. I have always been a believer in carrying the best ammo I can afford to protect myself and my Family. I also write the date that I loaded that lot of ammo in my pistol and will then rotate that ammo every 2 to 3 month and replace it with fresh ammo from the same lot. When all the ammo has been rotated through the firearm I set it aside for practice (Practice what you play as an instructor told me ) That way I know what the firearm will do with THAT ammo. Just my humble opinion... ;D
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The main reason for carrying factory ammo in a self defense gun is so your lawyers can duplicate the shooting results with ammo from the same lot. different powders may produce the same terminal effect BUT the powder residue can and usually will be different. Some powders have a bigger muzzle flash some none at all, some will leave residue 12 inches from the muzzle of the firearm others will send a trail 10 feet. The difference could mean a claim of the wound being at contact distance or from across the room. Now if you said the person you shot was across the room but the forensic guys claim it was at contact distance who will the prosecutors believe? Now they ask you What brand of ammo were you using, You claim that you had some reloads in the gun. Were the reloads loaded with Red Dot, 2400, Win 231 etc etc...different loads but all the same velocity/terminal effect but way different burning rates. Massad Ayoob wrote about this happening to a person who ended up in jail for murder after his wife committed suicide with a pistol and ammo that he supplied to her for self defense. I have always been a believer in carrying the best ammo I can afford to protect myself and my Family. I also write the date that I loaded that lot of ammo in my pistol and will then rotate that ammo every 2 to 3 month and replace it with fresh ammo from the same lot. When all the ammo has been rotated through the firearm I set it aside for practice (Practice what you play as an instructor told me ) That way I know what the firearm will do with THAT ammo. Just my humble opinion... ;D
+100
Very good info Majer, thanks.
Also very interesting reading from 2HOW...it's been a long time since I read anything of that nature.
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Since this thread has started to drift a little. I started to ask some of my fellow range members for some clarification on Ranger and the Black Talon ammo. You guys are right about the Black Talon ammo. But what I keep hearing on other forums is that the Range ammo was some of the best stuff around. But as I said all I could find at Midway USA or Sportsmans Warehouse was the Winchester Supreme SXT. But nothing that said Winchester Ranger on the box. Well I was directed to Tactical Defense Solutions (www.tds-us.com) where they go on to explain that the Ranger ammo is made for LEO's and not for the civilian market. This not the law, only a Winchester choice to sell . The T designation next to the stock number is for LEO's which is Talon but not Black Talon and they sell it for $25 per 50 rds. for 9mm RA9T (Talon) 147 grn sxt. If there is a difference between Winchester Ranger ammo and the Sportsmans Wharehouse Winchester Supreme ammo I'm not sure. TDS say they are the similar but the Ranger or LEO ammo is the good stuff. Take a look at thier website and you be the judge. I was just having a problem understanding the diff between Win Supreme, Win Ranger ammo.
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Like I said in my other post the Ranger line follows the regular Winchester line but without the fancy colors and coatings. The Silvertip, Supreme and Black Talon all have a Ranger counterpart that is usually cheaper also. Although the Ranger series has two different weights in the BlackTalon/SXT in most calibers.
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Like I said in my other post the Ranger line follows the regular Winchester line but without the fancy colors and coatings. The Silvertip, Supreme and Black Talon all have a Ranger counterpart that is usually cheaper also. Although the Ranger series has two different weights in the BlackTalon/SXT in most calibers.
Sorry I should of payed more attention to your post. But as this thread started to drift. I started to quickly go through the responses too see if an answer was given to my question. Thanks
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As far as I know it's like this;
Start with the original Black Talon. Nickel-plated brass, black bullet with talons.
Take the nickel plating off the brass and that makes it a Ranger SXT.
Take the Black off the Ranger SXT and that makes it a Ranger T.
Take the Talons off a Ranger T and that makes it a Supreme SXT.
Change the name of the SXT for no apparent reason and that makes it the T-Series.
T for the Talons it doesn't have? ::) All of them say SXT on the packaging.
All non-Ranger variations are Supreme, from the original Black Talons to the current Supreme T-Series.
In .45 ACP the part numbers are;
Black Talon SXT - S45A
Ranger SXT - RA45, not verified
Ranger T-Series - RA45T
Ranger T-Series +P - RA45TP
Supreme SXT - S45
Supreme T-Series - S45
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"Under 50-75 yds most AP is no more effective than regular rounds as it has not developed critical velocity/energy for penetration. From 125 out to 250 yards, penetration is almost guaranteed. This occurs as the high velocity AP projectile is still gaining speed<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#6">(6) and stability out to 125 yards or more."
That is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard. Someone needs to quit being ignorant and go buy a chronograph. So ridiculous...
>:(
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Your pretty close JF here is how it works
Winchester Black Talon Revisited
There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing capability. Here's the lowdown:
Black Talon SXT: The original Black Talon handgun bullet. It was introduced in 1991. The cartridge consists of a black colored bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The black paint-like coating on the bullet is a Winchester proprietary lubricant called Lubalox. The bullet has six serrations on the rim of the hollowpoint cavity (meplat), and six talons. The talons deploy when the bullet expands. They are described by Winchester as: "six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips." Winchester voluntarily discontinued sales of Black Talon SXT to the general public in late 1993/early 1994 due to intense negative media and political pressure. Some political activists derisively referred to it as "Black Felon" ammo. Black Talon is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.
Ranger SXT: Ranger SXT is a less expensive version of the original Black Talon cartridge intended for the law enforcement market. It consists of a black Lubalox coated bullet seated in a brass case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger SXT is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."
Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.
According to Olin-Winchester public relations, the Supreme SXT bullet design has not been factory tested in standard ordnance gelatin because it was not designed to meet police ammunition performance specifications. As a result, there's no valid and verifiable performance data available from Winchester or the FBI.
We find Winchester's attitude troubling because they're marketing a personal defense bullet (a life safety device) in which they confessed to us that they've no idea how well (or poorly) it performs. Therefore, we advise you not to buy and use Supreme SXT until Winchester gets its act together and coughs up performance data for this cartridge.
Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."
There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants.
The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition. U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is armor-piercing.
(Federal Nyclad ammunition is often mistaken as armor-piercing ammunition too, due to the blue-black nylon coating on the lead bullet.)
The black Lubalox coating on the Black Talon bullet is meant to reduce in-bore friction and chamber pressure. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle, the mission of the coating is completed. Lubalox does not give the bullet any special property that allows it to blast through police soft body armor.
Recently, the newer Winchester 9mm 127 grain +P+ Ranger SXT bullet (product number RA9SXTP) has been found to penetrate some lower threat level soft body armor. Second Chance Body Armor Company recalled one of its vests in response to officer safety concerns posed by this particular bullet.
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The Black Talon is just another fine example of media hype feeding stereotypical people who haven got a clue. No different than the silly ass laws about high capacity magazines and specific bans on certain bullet types.
It kinda makes me wonder which is dumber the laws themselves or the fact that certain people belive they make a difference.