The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Gr8Heath on October 18, 2008, 08:42:55 AM
-
Like most everyone, at least I hope, I have never fired a shot at organic matter. All My 45's run 230gr FMJ and are accurate enough to be scary...Even knowing the 45 has among the lowest velocities of large cal. ammo, I am still, well scared, of using them as self defense. Of course I know that is not the best option anyway. I have found lots of different ammo promising better expansion, less penetration, and less chance of a shoot through. however I have no basis as to which type is better. How much would a 180 gr frangible change it's accuracy. I guess I'm looking for a lighter round with the same ballistics (as far as accuracy). any input is appreciated. Be safe.
-
I think the best generic advise I can give you is to stick with hallow points made by one of the major manufactures and designed specifically for personal defense. When it comes to personal defense ammo for handguns, I think it is of the utmost importance to pay attention to weight retention, then velocity and finally mass - I know I am going to stir the hornets nest with that comment, but what ever.
With .45 acp you are going to have great success with just about any ammo you choose (it is the definitive choice for personal defense handgun ammo), and probably your biggest concern should be reliability and ammo that shoots to point of aim.
-
Big, soft 250 grain lead, "cowboy loads" of .45 Colt out of my Redhawk. ;D
-
Yes, you will get a wide variety of replies on this one, I think.
So, I'll give my 2 pennies now.
Years ago I settled with a workable compromise between the 'mass v. velocity' idea mentioned (appropriately) earlier by ericire12.
I settled on 185 or 200 grain hollowpoints at or near +P (1150 fps) velocity such as Cor-Bon.
I feel the higher velocity gives more dynamic early expansion and shock value (purely my opinion).
I've also heard that the rapid expansion helps with over-penetration due to rapid deceleration (from drag).
There are many other fine ammo makers. I have tested Remington Golden Sabre, Federal Hydra-Shok, Winchester Silvertips and SXT, but always come back to Cor-Bon. It's a personal preference based on years of superior (un-failing) performance and overall accuracy in my pistols. (no, I don't work for Cor-Bon.. ;D).
As for accuracy, no two loads are the same so testing is definitely warranted.
One good thing about our hobby, the testing part is fun too.
-
I hope you know this but make sure that the hollow points you choose feed in your pistol and magazines.
My Springfield is picky about ammo even after a trip to a very good gunsmith. I had an old Remington Rand that would only feed hardball.
I too ended up with Corbon DPX ammo as it fed every round from my mags (Wilson).
-
If your pistol doesn't like any other hollowpoints it should work okay if you feed it Pow'R'Balls. You know they're good because Cor-Bon makes it. ;) I have my .45 loaded with them as we speak. The 550 ft-lbs of ME is a real confidence booster too. ;D No idea what the accuracy is because when I shot a box or two I was only interested in function testing it. http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/powrball.htm
-
If your pistol doesn't like any other hollowpoints it should work okay if you feed it Pow'R'Balls. You know they're good because Cor-Bon makes it. ;) I have my .45 loaded with them as we speak. The 550 ft-lbs of ME is a real confidence booster too. ;D No idea what the accuracy is because when I shot a box or two I was only interested in function testing it. http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/powrball.htm
I carried these in 9mm for a while and then switched to TAP. They feed great, and accuracy is perfectly acceptable (never really measured a group, but they are more then combat accurate). They would probably be a nice choice for a small caliber carry gun like .380
-
I have always found that whatever the Feds are using has already passed the performance/liability test at many levels. Local law enforcement is always influenced by budget limitations (low bid mandate) which the Feds don't have. If you don't know any to ask, inquire at the largest local enforcement supply store. They will know or ask for you. Last time I checked, Speer Gold Dots were most favored.
Mac.
-
In the last year I have tried out a SR9, Glock 21C, LCP and PX4 in 40 S&W.
I live in a rural are and have set up everything from a simple target range to using old vehicles to test different rounds. Not only is it fun to have people over for a day of shooting but you get to see real life capabilities of different ammo.
- Blue/White box CorBon and Pow R Ball is fast and will do some damage with little over penitration. But when shot through simulated clothing it was common to see zero expansion. Into heavy clothing there seemed to be either no expansion or rapid expansion which usually seperated the core and jacket.
- Winchester BlackTalon/Ranger SXT are both heavier than the CorBon's and also offer little over penitration and better weight retention. A few shots through simulated heavy clothing resulted in tip clogging with no expansion but at a much lower rate than the fast and light CorBon's.
I also fired several middle weight JHP's like the Federal Hydro Shok, Winchester Ranger JHP/Bonded JHP and the such. Both of which use tappering or other means to control expansion rate and tip clogging.
I must say though that after a long day it was very common to see .45 bullets laying on the ground like someone dropped them, when they hit something they release there energy fast and stop moving.
-
Interesting info, Cody. Reminds me of the time I shot some Black talons (10+ years ago) through some stacked wood to check penetration. 3/4 of the rounds clogged with wood particles and never expanded at all. I actually took one of the intact bullets with the wood embedded into the hollow point cavity and put it into an empty casing and made a keychain out of it. Still got it somewhere.
-
Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket eliminates the problem of clogged hollowpoints by not haiving one. According to them it never fills with barrier material and assures expansion on every shot. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=403
-
Interesting info, Cody. Reminds me of the time I shot some Black talons (10+ years ago) through some stacked wood to check penetration. 3/4 of the rounds clogged with wood particles and never expanded at all. I actually took one of the intact bullets with the wood embedded into the hollow point cavity and put it into an empty casing and made a keychain out of it. Still got it somewhere.
I have a big box of fired rounds and I threw a few BlackTalons in there that failed to expand. No matter how "cool" the expanded BT's and other hollow points look people always pick up the non expanded ones and ask what they are.
-
Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket eliminates the problem of clogged hollowpoints by not haiving one. According to them it never fills with barrier material and assures expansion on every shot. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=403
The 40S&W EFMJ have a bad reputation of not expanding in anything less than 5 inch barrels.
-
I fired a few boxes of Federal efmj into a semi-rotted tree at my buddy's house (the rot seems to be from when I shot the same tree 10 yrs ago :-[ ) and they expanded juuuuust fine. Two of eight I recovered actually reached just about 1 inch across at the widest point. The others were expanded, but not to that extreme. Wood isn't flesh, and I probably won't carry them (I favor 230 gr over the lighter bullets and these are not available in that weight) but these guys seemed to work as advertised. The HS hollows I fired did not expand one whit. Para P12.45 3.5" barrel.
On the plus side, any hollow point that does not expand from a .45 is still a .45 ball and will most likely expend all if not most of it's energy in target.
-
I wouldn't think a hollow point would expand when fired into a tree. I thought the design was for the hollow point to fill with flesh...including a high percentage of liquid, which caused the expansion. That's why they don't work so well through certain types of clothing...it blocks the filling of the point. But...I'm no expert.
Now if you shot a cactus with it...
-
Just used that to show the diff between conventional hollow points and the xfmj bullet. Conventional HP rely on hydrostatic forces to expand, as you say. The xfmj stuff expands regardless.
ps, they are still illegal in NJ for carry. While not a hollow point, they are evilly designed with a scored jacket to actually try to maximize their effectiveness. Can't be hurting innocent criminals, don'tcha know.
-
Yeah, I know...well, it's legal to OWN them, but if you USE them you are exhibiting malicious intent.
I can't use a round like that in my own defense in my own home but I can use a round that will pass through the perp, through the wall, across the street, and kill a neighbor. THAT kind of round is ok because in using it I am not exhibiting malicious intent against the POS I'm shooting at.
-
Local law enforcement is always influenced by budget limitations (low bid mandate) which the Feds don't have. If you don't know any to ask, inquire at the largest local enforcement supply store. They will know or ask for you. Last time I checked, Speer Gold Dots were most favored.
Mac.
That's not always the case. it depends on the local department. My alma mater department relied upon FBI test protocol and at times ran our own tests. The department bought what the senior firearms training staff considered to be the best, regardless of cost. At one time it was Winchester Silvertip, and the last I heard they are using Winchester Ranger, LE loads. Their issue guns are SigArms in either .40 or .45 caliber, models issued depend on assignment. Staff and detectives get smaller frame pistols, if they wish and patrol troops carry full size.
-
I wouldn't think a hollow point would expand when fired into a tree. I thought the design was for the hollow point to fill with flesh...including a high percentage of liquid, which caused the expansion. That's why they don't work so well through certain types of clothing...it blocks the filling of the point. But...I'm no expert.
Now if you shot a cactus with it...
Same as when I fired into the boards I posted about earlier.
All those years ago, I didn't originally factor in the physics involved with shooting into wood, as I was goofing around.
Thinking about it now, the wood on the outside surface of the projectile was as equally hard and (and non-expanding) as the wood that went into the hollow cavity. For the bullet to expand, the substance on the outside surface has to be able to expand enough for the bullet to expand also. After the back side of some of the wood was blown away (or splintered) is probably what allowed a few to expand somewhat.
-
I wouldn't think a hollow point would expand when fired into a tree. I thought the design was for the hollow point to fill with flesh...including a high percentage of liquid, which caused the expansion. That's why they don't work so well through certain types of clothing...it blocks the filling of the point. But...I'm no expert.
That may have been true a few years ago, but most major ammo makers now make Self Defense HP ammo designed to expand after passing through barriers that once clogged them. Pow-R-Ball and Federal's EFMJ paved the way and caused the competition to open their eyes and think outside of the box. Do your research and please don't make an ammo decision based on whether a bullet will clog in a tree.
-
Bottom line, Pioneer - both the HS and the XFMJ stopped the tree with one shot. It came no closer and did not attack.
-
Bottom line, Pioneer - both the HS and the XFMJ stopped the tree with one shot. It came no closer and did not attack.
Good stuff..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Bottom line, Pioneer - both the HS and the XFMJ stopped the tree with one shot. It came no closer and did not attack.
Yeah well...how big was it? Just a sapling or Tarzan swing size? And did you provoke it or was it just grazing?
;)
;D
-
Big tree. And as I said earlier in the thread, I shot it up about 10 years ago which to a tree is about an hour to a human. I'm sure it was still sharpening it's branches awaiting my return.
Had I used my .22, I might not be here today.
-
Put on your tinfoil hats, boys. Those trees are EVERYWHERE!
-
Ok , After much thought I decided to give you my .02 on this post. You want to carry a hand gun for protection but youre afraid of hurting anyone, with the slowest safest round made. If you can shoot this .45 so well its scary, I suggest you keep on carrying it. There is no other round made that gives you more reliability and performance than the .45. Other rounds give you the chance of over penetration, ergo liability. The only alternative for you is to not carry, because what you are looking for does not exist. ???
-
Put on your tinfoil hats, boys. Those trees are EVERYWHERE!
Apparently it has relatives Jay! I almost got hit with a falling branch just now. Trip to the mail box and we're in the middle of 15 mph winds with much higher gusts... branch fell on the driveway about 10 seconds after I got to the street. I'm wearing that tin foil hat from now on. ;D