The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: ericire12 on October 18, 2008, 09:47:08 AM
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http://www.chitowndailynews.org/Chicago_news/Protest_slated_over_police_assault_rifle_plan,17272
A group opposed to the Chicago Police Department’s plan to arm street cops with M4 semiautomatic assault rifles is planning to get their point across to the police board tonight.
Members of the Southwest Youth Collaborative, an advocacy group based on the city’s South side, say they have collected more than 5,000 signatures from people opposed to the plan.
The petition, to be presented to Mayor Richard M. Daley, Police Commissioner Jody P. Weis and other city leaders, says the group is against “the militarization of the Chicago Police Department, our youth, and our low-income communities of color,” and wants the city to reverse course and seeks a public meeting on the issue.
The group is staging a "Live In Peace - Chicago Youth Rally," scheduled to begin at 6:30 p.m. tonight at police headquarters, 3510 S. Michigan Ave. The police board meeting starts at 7:30 p.m.
The Chicago Police Department wants to add the M4 to its arsenal because they can hold 30 rounds, twice as many as a typical 9 mm side arm, and because the semiautomatic rifles have a much greater range.
Weis and Mayor Richard M. Daley have said Chicago's cops, outgunned by an increasing number of criminals toting assault weapons, needed more firepower.
But last month, a Daily News review of federal firearms statistics suggests the number of assault weapons seized from Illinois criminals is not on the rise. Nor is the number of homicides committed with rifles in the nation. And rifles have been responsible on average for 15 percent of officer deaths each of the last six years.
Meanwhile, firearms experts say bullets from the M4 can travel nearly twice as far as those from a handgun, potentially posing risks for bystanders. And some policing specialists say equipping beat cops with military style weapons sends a message to police and citizens that combat, not cooperation, is the goal.
Several urban police departments in the United States, including the Miami Police Department, already use the M4 carbine.
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the group is against “the militarization of the Chicago Police Department, our youth, and our low-income communities of color,”
So ... would it be ok if they were going into white neighborhoods ???
Hasn't anyone out there noticed that police more and more look like military with the other gear they wear? Have you looked at a picture from the RNC convention in St. Paul? Change the uniforms from black to camo and you've got the middle east. Can we say tools of the trade?
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I am a big beleaver in, if the public can't buy it, then the police should not be able too.
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Give them a good revolver and a lever gun. Just as effective and less 'in your face'. After all they are cops not paramilitary.
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I am a big beleaver in, if the public can't buy it, then the police should not be able too.
????
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Give them a good revolver and a lever gun. Just as effective and less 'in your face'. After all they are cops not paramilitary.
Remington makes a pump action .223 for just that reason - image.
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Yeah, I've seen it. If I was gonna buy a .223 that is probably the one I would get.
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Remington makes a pump action .223 for just that reason - image.
I actually got too shoot one of those a couple years back... it feels exactly like a 870, just a diffrent recoil. Which was thier idea with the gun, give them something they are use to using, only with a rifle round rather then shot.
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If I am going to switch from what I see to what I believe should be:
1. Can anyone imagine trying to walk a beat with an M-4 on top of everything else;
2. Can you imagine an officer in close quarters picking through the different weapons options;
3. Can you imagine the amount of training to keep all these officers current in the uses and proficiency of these weapons ... all this added to what they already need.
I am basically with Haz. A good reliable handgun, spare magazines (or clips if you chose that type of handgun), and practice for proficiency!
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And some policing specialists say equipping beat cops with military style weapons sends a message to police and citizens that combat, not cooperation, is the goal.
Maybe this is what the hoodlums need to think. I honestly don't think they need that much firepower, as Haz says.. image. maybe a different weapon with a little less range. the article says they're concerned with range and bystanders and I think that's a legitimate concern. but they do look cool. :)
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If I am going to switch from what I see to what I believe should be:
1. Can anyone imagine trying to walk a beat with an M-4 on top of everything else;
2. Can you imagine an officer in close quarters picking through the different weapons options;
3. Can you imagine the amount of training to keep all these officers current in the uses and proficiency of these weapons ... all this added to what they already need.
I am basically with Haz. A good reliable handgun, spare magazines (or clips if you chose that type of handgun), and practice for proficiency!
TAB's comment partly addresses the concern about training, I saw the same article, ( I think it was American Rifleman)
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"Stop or I'll shoot!" That should take about two weeks and crime would drop....but then who would the thugs that run Chicago use that on?
I vaguely remember New Orleans had in the 60's, for about 2 weeks, a stop or shoot order. Crime came to a standstill.......then they had to rescind it...back to mayhem....
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Yakov Smirnoff used to have a bit where he talked about crime. He said in Russia a warning shot was when the shot the guy running next to you.
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TAB's comment partly addresses the concern about training, I saw the same article, ( I think it was American Rifleman)
There is a big diffrence between a pump action rifle that holds 10 rounds and a semi auto rifle that holds 30... just ask the CA DOJ. ::)
I think an AR right next to them( next to the shot gun) is too much. Now having a few with it in the trunk, thats another story. Giving one to every one that can qualify with it(I could have passed the qualifaction of my LEA when I was 10) is a sign of how far they have gone from protect and serve. Think about it for a second, when was the last time you had a good EXP with a LEO? yes, them giving you a ticket is a good exp, if they treat you with respect.( assuming you were not an ass with them) In the last 5 years I can only think of one good exp I have had. It was not only good, It was great. The officer bent over backwards to help me out of a jamb. Infact I was so greatful I catered lunch for the entire office and wrote lettes to his direct supervizor, the regional supervizor and the head of the CHP... kind of funny how the only reply I got was from his direct supervizor.
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I've made my thoughts on LEOs well known on this site, so no further comment here. Chicago is no exception.
Having worked for decades in Chicago, and knowing some of the CPD people, there is no way in hell I would want any of them carrying an M4 in anything other than a SWAT situation, and maybe not even then. I can't even recall all of the numerous improper cop shooting a civilian episodes and those were with revolvers. Can you imagine them with M4s?
Scary thought.
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There is a big diffrence between a pump action rifle that holds 10 rounds and a semi auto rifle that holds 30... just ask the CA DOJ.
The Remington 7615P can use standard AR magazines (30 rds)
http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm
Do you guys not remember the West Hollywood bank robbery shoot out back in 1997?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/01/bank.shootout/
Those cops and their Berettas were severely out gunned by those guns with the AKs. I think police officers should have M4s in their patrol cars for such situations. I know I would feel much better if I had to go to an "active shooter" call and could pull an M4 out of my trunk when I arrived on scene.
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The Remington 7615P can use standard AR magazines (30 rds)
http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm
Do you guys not remember the West Hollywood bank robbery shoot out back in 1997?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/01/bank.shootout/
Those cops and their Berettas were severely out gunned by those guns with the AKs. I think police officers should have M4s in their patrol cars for such situations. I know I would feel much better if I had to go to an "active shooter" call and could pull an M4 out of my trunk when I arrived on scene.
That shoot out is the reason why just about every LEA got ARs. You have to remember that happend in LA... its a complete diffrent country. Its also one of the main reason why we got a AWB.( in ca) THe one good thing that shoot out did do was allow officers to carry something other then 9mm and slug ammo in thier cars. If they had slugs things would have been very diffrent. As is they ran to a gun store and bought ARs... they could not have done that now as 99% of FFLs in CA do not stock them. The gun I shot could not take AR mags, still there is a big diffrence between a manually operated gun and a semi auto... once again as the CA DOJ. If we have to arm LEOs for what might happen, might as well give them TOW missles. There have been more cases where some one has stole a tank/ APC/ Armored car then there has been heavly armed and armored crimals.
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Ok, so give them a 9mm version of the M-4, they can use the same ammo as their sidearm(less ammo costs, less chance of over penetration ) and it still has the intimidation factor (Evil Black Rifle) they're looking for. Under stress most people can shoot a rifle easier/more accurately than a side arm.
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First: I am honestly surprised that none of you noticed that a CHICAGO newspaper actually reported that Mayor Daley was not only lying but assault weapons aren't to blame for everything:
But last month, a Daily News review of federal firearms statistics suggests the number of assault weapons seized from Illinois criminals is not on the rise. Nor is the number of homicides committed with rifles in the nation. And rifles have been responsible on average for 15 percent of officer deaths each of the last six years.
Second: I am all for a department getting ahead of the power curve to stop streat crime. I just find it absurd that Chicago of all places is getting M4s when it wasn't six months ago Mayor Daley was trying to get everybody to turn in thier personal guns and saying that Heller means nothing to him.
Most dept's I have worked around/with the M4 type weapons aren't general issue or they are qualified with in lieu of or addition to the shotgun. The officers have the option. No one WALKS with it, it's in the trunk of the cruiser. (This isn't Europe! :D ) When I ran the range we qualified everyone on the M9, M16, and shotgun no matter what. Range staff also qualified M11 (Sig 228) and M14. Everyone on patrol had an M9 and a couple had shotguns on shift. The M16s were only broke out for higher security levels so most Patrolmen didn't handle it much. It showed on the range but everybody eventually qual'd.
TAB: The officers in North Hollyweird HAD access to slugs for the shotguns but didn't use them. Yes the shotgun slug would have slowed/stopped the two robbers but they were pinned down to far out to be effective. None of those guns were purchased at the time, B&B Sales GAVE the LAPD the rifles but charged them afterward. I talked with the owner while I was still in San Diego.
Problem with the 9mm AR is the round doesn't have the energy or velocity, even through the longer barrel, to stop armored (happens more and more) assailants. Also 9mm punches through walls and bodies with enough energy to hit a bystander while 223 tumbles and dissipates faster so less penetration. If you hadn't noticed that is why most SWAT guys have moved away from the MP5 to the AR over the last ten years or so
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I cant help but be reminded of this fool:
(http://wonkette.com/assets/resources/2008/02/nagingun.jpg)
(http://www.wdsu.com/2008/0214/15301058.jpg)
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See I can't help but thing of this...
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/pic100062.jpg)
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The Penn and Teller test where they got people to sign a petition to ban Di Hydro Oxide (H2O) proves that you can find some asshole to protest ANYTHING.
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Bull shit is one of the few shows on TV I will actually watch... It always cracks me up.
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Bull shit is one of the few shows on TV I will actually watch... It always cracks me up.
The one they did on "Gun control" really impressed me, I had seen them on tv a few years ago and had the impression they were liberals. Guess I was wrong on that one ;D
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gun control is not a "liberal" thing, Trust me if the GOP thought they could get more votes by supporting gun control, even the most conservative of them would do so.
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E12,
In Hollywood the cops couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle! I have seen that footage many times. 10 feet and never hit the guy at all! They would simply have missed with a hotter round.
I go with (sorry can't remember who) said if I can't carry it neither should the cops. Maybe then they'll get the idea and support us!
If I wear a 'vest' I will be marked as a nut, but cops wear them as a REQUIREMENT! Are they better than we? Are they 'in the situation' more often? NO to both!
They (cops) need to see us (permit holders) as a BIG part of crime prevention and realize that we are on the SAME SIDE!!!!!!!!!!
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The Remington 7615P can use standard AR magazines (30 rds)
http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm
Do you guys not remember the West Hollywood bank robbery shoot out back in 1997?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/01/bank.shootout/
Those cops and their Berettas were severely out gunned by those guns with the AKs. I think police officers should have M4s in their patrol cars for such situations. I know I would feel much better if I had to go to an "active shooter" call and could pull an M4 out of my trunk when I arrived on scene.
One example from 10 years ago? Too many politicians use this same approach, or just the threat of it, to excuse a lot of bad laws. Truth is, the overwhelming majority of bad guys, if they even try to use an AR or AK in a crime, barely know which end of the rifle to hold, let alone know how to use it effectively.
Police Depts. have over-reacted to this event. Case in point, we have a regional, bi-state SWAT team here, comprised of LEOs from 2 counties in 2 states, and three cities. 26 members in all, plus situation command vehicles, gear, training, etc. Have no idea what the total annual budget is.
They go on less than one call a month, and many of those aren't even in the region they serve.
Like I said, over-reacted. My guess is the 26 are the same type that "helped" in Katrina, gung-ho, looking for the "action" and OBTW, helping themselves to some really cool firearms thanks to the residents of Louisiana.
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Hey, where are the gangs going to get there's if they can't steal them from police cars!!!!????
Richard
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Under the theory that gun control is hitting what you aim at, I can live with officers that are properly trained carrying M4's in their vehicles for specific needs ... something like a coyote on the ledge of the fifth floor of the Mercantile Exchange ;)
The problem I have is being proficient. I think every serious shooter has been exposed to law enforcement training and qualifications at some time. These officers have so much to keep track of (don't get me started, because everyone with a job with responsibilities does) that they don't practice their weapons skills enough. I have seen handgun training where they walk up on a human sized target and can't hit center mass until seven or eight feet. I see them count on shotguns as a HUGH pattern that will make up for poor marksmanship, but I think we've all seen Personal Defense TV or a similar demonstration where they disprove the shotgun for that purpose.
Doesn't every large department have some sort of "swat" team? Wouldn't it make sense to set these teams up with guns like this, let them be proficient, and let the "beat" officer get good with his handgun and public relation skills?
I love that article from Idaho ??? Man is in a standoff with officers, and this gal (no sexist intent) showing off her good shooting form, exposes every vital part of her body from behind cover ??? First sign that there is possibly not enough training for these situation with at least her.
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Under the theory that gun control is hitting what you aim at, I can live with officers that are properly trained carrying M4's in their vehicles for specific needs ... something like a coyote on the ledge of the fifth floor of the Mercantile Exchange ;)
The problem I have is being proficient. I think every serious shooter has been exposed to law enforcement training and qualifications at some time. These officers have so much to keep track of (don't get me started, because everyone with a job with responsibilities does) that they don't practice their weapons skills enough. I have seen handgun training where they walk up on a human sized target and can't hit center mass until seven or eight feet. I see them count on shotguns as a HUGH pattern that will make up for poor marksmanship, but I think we've all seen Personal Defense TV or a similar demonstration where they disprove the shotgun for that purpose.
Doesn't every large department have some sort of "swat" team? Wouldn't it make sense to set these teams up with guns like this, let them be proficient, and let the "beat" officer get good with his handgun and public relation skills?
I love that article from Idaho ??? Man is in a standoff with officers, and this gal (no sexist intent) showing off her good shooting form, exposes every vital part of her body from behind cover ??? First sign that there is possibly not enough training for these situation with at least her.
Not to mention no mag in the M4. But hey, it's all about looking good for the camera, right?
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Not to mention no mag in the M4. But hey, it's all about looking good for the camera, right?
I believe we debated this one quite a while ago, and the general feeling was "STAGED."
But, that's the media for you ... if it ain't there ... create it :'(
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See I can't help but thing of this...
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/pic100062.jpg)
I have seen this before but it always makes me laugh. I also think of the revolver gag gun with the barrel pointing backward.
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Not to mention no mag in the M4. But hey, it's all about looking good for the camera, right?
Look again, the mag is BACKWARDS. I've tried to put it in that way on purpose just to see and couldn't, she worked HARD at screwing that up.
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Look again, the mag is BACKWARDS. I've tried to put it in that way on purpose just to see and couldn't, she worked HARD at screwing that up.
OK, I looked at that photo, remembered it from the earlier this year discussion about the backwards magazine. I swear I looked at this photo THREE times for that damn mag and did not see it when I posted the above.
I'm blaming the cold pills and my generally crappy mood these days for missing the mag.
I looked, honest I did! >:(
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I'm sorry, did these people learn nothing from the North Hollywood shootout!? Sure, the Crips and Bloods can walk around with all the weaponry they can carry while stoned and a police officer can't have an M4? Absolutely ridiculous! I know that this is a handgun oriented forum for the most part, but for me, a handgun is a BACKUP weapon in my domain. I can attest to the effectiveness of the Remington pump-action rifles, as I have used one as my primary deer-rifle for years; however, there is still no reason an officer can't have an M4.
There are many reasons!
1) Penetration: Even the .45 ACP doesn't cut it when it comes to body-armor, steel-core 5.56's do.
2) Capacity: What happens when it goes south with a bunch of gangsters who recruit every kid on the block?
3) Precision: The quicker and farther away that you take someone down, the less chance there is for collateral damage.
Give the Crips kalashnikovs and the cops water-guns! I love it! You bloody idiots...
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I'm sorry, did these people learn nothing from the North Hollywood shootout!? Sure, the Crips and Bloods can walk around with all the weaponry they can carry while stoned and a police officer can't have an M4? Absolutely ridiculous! I know that this is a handgun oriented forum for the most part, but for me, a handgun is a BACKUP weapon in my domain. I can attest to the effectiveness of the Remington pump-action rifles, as I have used one as my primary deer-rifle for years; however, there is still no reason an officer can't have an M4.
There are many reasons!
1) Penetration: Even the .45 ACP doesn't cut it when it comes to body-armor, steel-core 5.56's do.
2) Capacity: What happens when it goes south with a bunch of gangsters who recruit every kid on the block?
3) Precision: The quicker and farther away that you take someone down, the less chance there is for collateral damage.
Give the Crips kalashnikovs and the cops water-guns! I love it! You bloody idiots...
So its ok for the crimals and cops to have them, but the average person can't? That is exactly the case in CA.
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So its ok for the crimals and cops to have them, but the average person can't? That is exactly the case in CA.
Sucks to be you, I've got an AK ;D It's no big deal because in NH we don't let them usurp our civil liberties.
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you can have AKs and ARs... just no M4s... they have "bad" features.
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I can have an M-4 if I want, Full auto, with a suppressor. I prefer 30 cal.
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Look again, the mag is BACKWARDS. I've tried to put it in that way on purpose just to see and couldn't, she worked HARD at screwing that up.
Or its a photoshop piece.
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So its ok for the crimals and cops to have them, but the average person can't? That is exactly the case in CA.
Move out of CA and you will get your freedoms back.
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Moved out of CA in 04 and will probably never move back. MD may be JUST behind CA in stupid restrictions but i can still but a short AR (the mags are SUPPOSED to only have 20 rds, VA sells 30s cheap.) I got one for Christmas last year.