The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: USSA-1 on October 23, 2008, 07:44:24 AM
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Do you need extreme pistol skills?
Training article
http://www.usshootingacademy.com/content.aspx?id=26 (http://www.usshootingacademy.com/content.aspx?id=26)
USSA-1
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Erik, I do agree with your article, when I was match director for our local tactical pistol matches, there would always be one distance stage, 1-3 shots at 50 plus yards, usually steel but not always. I caught a lot of flak for it, and it even made a thread here. Not only does it hone your skill, but should also show your limitations, you should know where your ability ends. Now that my eyes are older, those shots are hard to make with confidence with irons.
Your scenario is one good example. The one I use, is your at the lake in your boat, waiting at the ramp for your wife to back the truck and trailer up, you watch as your wife gets to the truck, and 2 men approach her, how far is that, could be a hundred yards.
What choice do you have if their intentions are malicious? Hopefully her pistol is ready!
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Your article is dead on, even tho people are drilled that most encounters are 21 ft or less you have to be proficient with a pistol out to and beyond 50 yds. That means you have to first have a caliber that will make the trip, and second find a place to train for the shot. I'm fortunate that when I do train I can shoot what I want at distance. I would say 100yd shots are not out of the question. I shoot bowling pins at 100 yds with my 1911 ( or I shoot "at" them). I am confident at covering a 6 " square at that distance with iron sights. The 2 hardest shots to make IMO are the very close and of course the very far. I think everyone should practice at what ever distance has the reward of the hit with a good shot. Anyone can plug paper at 25 ft. The long shot also has a reminder of how limited the handgun is and gives the shooter a feel for bullet drop, I also believe it makes you use the flash sight picture and takes you closer to point shooting than the modern technique will allow since at times you really can only cover the target with the front sight and hope.
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Do you need extreme pistol skills?
What is your recommended routine for the backyard shooter to better develop these skills? It helps me to get immediate feedback in the form of plate targets but their not always available at the ranges. I use color changing targets when I shoot paper and it's obvious even at longer ranges where your hitting the target. They do get kind of pricey but far cheaper than the ammo I'm shooting.
Any help would be apprieciated.
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Timothy,
It really depends what you have available to use. When you say you are a backyard shooter, is that a literal statement? Do you have your own range on private property or do you use an outdoor, public range?
I've got some ideas, but I need a little more info about what you have available to you.
As 2HOW stated, bowling pins are great targets. You can usually get old ones free of charge from any bowling alley. They can absorb an incredible amount of damage and are very durable. They are tough to knock over and require a good center mass hit to accomplish this and they are easy to setup/cleanup.
Let me know what you've got to work with and I'll see what I can come up with.
USSA-1
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I learned more about handgun shooting with IHMSA big bore than anything else I did. I'm not by any means close to even a high amateur level in defensive pistol shooting, but what I learned from shooting rams at 200yds had made me a much better shooter at the closer ranges. A 3" bull at 25yds is huge after rams at 200s.
While you still need the rapid fire, close quarters practice of the competitions, the long distance amplifies any problems with grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control.
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Timothy,
It really depends what you have available to use. When you say you are a backyard shooter, is that a literal statement? Do you have your own range on private property or do you use an outdoor, public range?
USSA-1
I have access to several options. I shoot out to 25 yds at the Smith & Wesson range in Springfield and my club has a 50 yard outdoor pistol range. I also have access to private property on occasion where I can shoot out to about 150 yards.
Thanks....
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Excellent article.
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Excellent article.
Best of all, like Ayoobs writings it begins with a situation that has actually occurred and could happen to ANY of us.
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In my previous life we used PPC for pistol qualification. We carried S&W Model 19 with 2 1/2 barrels. That makes you pay attention to fundamentals when shooting at 50 yds. That was with Winchester 38 match ammo. With .357 ammo we had a course in an arroyo where bad guy targets were in several locations at different ranges up to 40 yds, that got interesting. I used to practice with .357 at man size rock at approx 100 yds, if I did my part the M19 worked great. For extreme rifle range, we had M16A1's with military ammo. We practiced on a man size target at 800 yds. Again you did your part the M16 did it's part, consistent hits. We used both iron and 2X scopes. Competetion PPC was a great teacher.
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I like steel for practice myself and am not a big fan of slowly punching paper to get those 1 or 2 inch groups.
I prefer lots of draws, malfunction drills,reloads and looking around for more threats as training than punching bullseyes if you carry a gun intending to save your life.
When you get that pucker factor when faced by gunfire you have a good chance of reverting back to your training.
If you are a backyard plinker buy some bowling pins or have a buddy that can weld,rig you up with some steel targets.
Then find out what you really suck at like support hand, shooting on the move etc and then PRACTICE IT UNTIL YOU HAVE SOLVED THOSE WEAK POINTS!
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DesertMarine,
All I can say is Wow! Nice work with that Mod. 19. Just goes to show something I've always said, "The bullet doesn't know you moved back." Apply the fundamentals correctly and you'll get the hit you want.
Outstanding work Sir!
USSA-1
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I prefer a training program where both paper punching and drills like Burt Gummer describes are used. Paper punching forces a person to practice shooting fundamentals: sight alignment, breathing, trigger control. Combat and tactical training/practice teaches how to apply the fundamentals to combat, high stress situations. What happens when your combat/tatictal/competition shooting starts going down, you go back to basics. It is all conditioning the body and mind so that in a stress situation your body reacts to training to save your life.
Thanks USSA-1. So true about the bullet not knowing you moved back. A short barrelled .357 with it's muzzle blast and recoil, sure makes you concentrate on fundamentals while shooting at distance.
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What is your recommended routine for the backyard shooter to better develop these skills? It helps me to get immediate feedback in the form of plate targets but their not always available at the ranges. I use color changing targets when I shoot paper and it's obvious even at longer ranges where your hitting the target. They do get kind of pricey but far cheaper than the ammo I'm shooting.
Any help would be apprieciated.
I posted this on another thread, but it may fit in this case also, with regards to not being able to shoot steel due to location:
I was a member of a range twenty or so years ago that had a 'no speed shooting' rule as well as no 'pins' or 'steel'.
They were real old-school die-hard Bullseye guys.
We talked it out and compromised and they finally allowed the faster shooting as long as it was on paper targets.
So, a couple of us went to a local pizza joint and bought a few stacks of those round cardboard liners that go under the pizza in the pizza boxes. Cost just a few bucks for a stack of fifty. We bought the 8" and 10" sizes. We then cut a saw kerf down the length of an 8' 2x4 and the targets would stand up on their edges in the 2x4. We used saw horses to hold the 2x4 and put several a various distances.
Worked like a charm for 'simulated steel' (I know it ain't the same as the real thing) and they were already white and could be repaired with tape during a session.
We also cut down the sides of some of them to make the resemble mini tombstone targets or mini poppers.
I still use the round pizza tray targets to plink on to this day....it works for me.
PegLeg
8)
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I still use the round pizza tray targets to plink on to this day....it works for me.
PegLeg
8)
Great idea PegLeg, thanks....
T
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I really didn't read through the entire link and don't know how many of you have a military backround or LEA experience but I see one skill missing from the equasion. Sure we can all puch holes in paper or knock down some steels but what happens when that piece or paper or sheet of metal is a person? One needs to make sure that even in a time of life defending danger you can deal with what happens after the bang.
If some of you are military or LEA you understand what I am talking about but to everyday citizens like me it's something we need to think about.
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Good point Cody. I have been advised, and just got yesterday, to read "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. I'm told that that addresses several of those issues. Anyone else have any ideas/recommendations?
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Ayoobs Newest book, Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry
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@cody
I think, that this thread will cover most of your questions. http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3812.0
Just listen to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, he is awesome! Really interesting stuff to think about.
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Cooptire,
Do some research regarding prominent self-defense lawyers in your area. Pony up the money to buy an hour of his time. Go over your State/Local CCW laws and establish a contact procedure with the local police and the lawyer in the event you ever have to use your weapon.
Knowing what will happen after the fight will give you great peace of mind during the fight.
USSA-1
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As a Marine infrantryman, we used to shoot and train a lot. The main purpose of training, paper punching and tactical training/practice is to get a person to a point to where when the SHTF you automatically do what you need to do without having to think about it. As a federal officer we did the same. What I learned in the infantry helped a lot while in government service. When I competed in PPC, that added to my knowledge.
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Cooptire,
Do some research regarding prominent self-defense lawyers in your area. Pony up the money to buy an hour of his time. Go over your State/Local CCW laws and establish a contact procedure with the local police and the lawyer in the event you ever have to use your weapon.
Knowing what will happen after the fight will give you great peace of mind during the fight.
USSA-1
Sounds like great advice to me! Thanks. I will in fact do that very thing.