The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Ichiban on October 27, 2008, 09:13:39 AM
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Call me old fashioned, but I don't think an eight year old should be handling an automatic weapon (even with adult supervision) for this very reason. They just can't handle it and don't have the cognitive abilities to let go of the trigger in time. Just more ammunition for the the gun grabbers.
Truly a tragic accident. My heart goes out to his family.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081027/ap_on_re_us/boy_shoots_himself;_ylt=AmO3CW0qFUbj1nMenTjgoDKs0NUE (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081027/ap_on_re_us/boy_shoots_himself;_ylt=AmO3CW0qFUbj1nMenTjgoDKs0NUE)
WESTFIELD, Mass. – An 8-year-old boy died after accidentally shooting himself in the head while firing an Uzi submachine gun under adult supervision at a gun fair.
The boy lost control of the weapon while firing it Sunday at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, police Lt. Lawrence Valliere said.
The boy, Christopher Bizilj of Ashford, Conn., was with a certified instructor and "was shooting the weapon down range when the force of the weapon made it travel up and back toward his head, where he suffered the injury," a police statement said.
Christopher died at Baystate Medical Center.
Although police called it a "self-inflicted accidental shooting," police and the Hampden district attorney's office were investigating, officials said.
"We are going to review all the circumstance regarding what happened, who was involved, what authorities they may or may not have had, who was supervising," District Attorney William Bennett said Monday.
It is legal for children to fire a weapon if they have permission from a parent or legal guardian and are supervised by a properly certified and licensed instructor, Lt. Hipolito Nunez said.
Those conditions were met in this case, he said. He declined to release the supervisor's name.
The club said on its Web site that the event, run in conjunction with C.O.P Firearms and Training, is "all legal and fun." People are allowed to fire weapons at vehicles, pumpkins and other targets, it said.
Officials of the private club and the firearms group could not be reached for comment. There was no response to a message left on a club answering machine. The C.O.P. group's machine clicked off without taking a message.
The sportsman's club was founded in 1949 and describes itself on its Web site as promoting "the interest of legal sport with rod, gun, and bow and arrow, both directly and through training."
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Sadly tragedies and ACCIDENTs happen. We'll say a prayer for the family, the club, all adults involved, and the soul of that boy.
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I don't think an eight year old should be handling an automatic weapon (even with adult supervision)
I agree. This is tragic for many reasons.
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Call me old fashioned, but I don't think an eight year old should be handling an automatic weapon (even with adult supervision) for this very reason.
Don't get me wrong, this is a tragedy without question and I do feel sorry for the parents, as they will have to deal with this for the rest of their lives. That being said, the child had absolutely no business using an automatic weapon. I have never personally fired one, but I have been told that they are hard to control even for an adult. The parents are completely and totally responsible for this needless accident. This should not be used as anti - gun fodder, although it will be, because the machine (gun) is not at fault. The parents might as well have given the child the keys to the family car and turned him loose on the highway. In that instance, I bet they wouldn't try to ban the car, just charge the parents with something like child endangerment, which IMHO, was the problem. Just my 1/50 of a dollar.
Swoop
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Don't get me wrong, this is a tragedy without question and I do feel sorry for the parents, as they will have to deal with this for the rest of their lives. That being said, the child had absolutely no business using an automatic weapon. I have never personally fired one, but I have been told that they are hard to control even for an adult. The parents are completely and totally responsible for this needless accident. This should not be used as anti - gun fodder, although it will be, because the machine (gun) is not at fault. The parents might as well have given the child the keys to the family car and turned him loose on the highway. In that instance, I bet they wouldn't try to ban the car, just charge the parents with something like child endangerment, which IMHO, was the problem. Just my 1/50 of a dollar.
Swoop
Right on target.
Exit Question: Should the parents and/or the gun range be charged in this?
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Parents - yes, gross stupidity!
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Parents - yes, gross stupidity!
+100
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Parents = responsible; gun range= gets sued.
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I did not come here for blame or insults - even though there is plenty of reason for it.
I'm interested: Is there any one person here that takes the tragedy as an opportunity to think things over?
This is not just a stupid yet tragic accident. It is a logical consequence of the importance guns are given in the U.S. A once very important 2nd amendmend is a sorry excuse for too many guncrazy fools. There should be better ways.
Is anyone waking up? Please post here!
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Sadly tragedies and ACCIDENTs happen. We'll say a prayer for the family, the club, all adults involved, and the soul of that boy.
This is not just an accident - thats cynical. This is failure produced by a dangerous gun culture. Try to think. Try to feel.
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Hey, we have a troll!
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Troll alert!!!!!
The Second Amendment is still very important - period!
Life lost is a tragedy, child’s life is even more precious. Just want to point out that even amusement parks and carnivals have a restriction for who can use certain attractions and who is not. Just plain common sense.
Should the Machine Gun Shoot promoter be shut down is up to the jury. Here is the link to their web page C.O.P Firearms and Training (http://C.O.P Firearms and Training) Click their Shoting events button. Their flier says " No age limit or license trequired to shoot machine guns, ...." on the side of the flyer image. Enough said.
I don't feel I am in a position to talk about the parents of this boy. They already suffered enough. I don't wish this even on my worth enemy.
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Troll alert!!!!!
The Second Amendment is still very important - period!
Ignore the varmint, dont encourage him.
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Well, since are talking about accidents, and if you can believe the data from the Center of Disease Control:
For 2005:
789 Deaths due to accidental firearms discharge.
3582 Deaths due to drowning or submersion.
23,618 Deaths from poisoning or noxious substance.
Draw your own conclusions (as I know you will).
No argument that even one accidental death is too many but do try to keep it in perspective.
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I did not come here for blame or insults - even though there is plenty of reason for it.
I'm interested: Is there any one person here that takes the tragedy as an opportunity to think things over?
This is not just a stupid yet tragic accident. It is a logical consequence of the importance guns are given in the U.S. A once very important 2nd amendmend is a sorry excuse for too many guncrazy fools. There should be better ways.
Is anyone waking up? Please post here!
You mean, "Guncrazy fools" as opposed to "Automobile crazy fools" who kill countless more...or "alcohol crazy fools" who take a legal product and ruin lives?
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Well, since are talking about accidents, and if you can believe the data from the Center of Disease Control:
For 2005:
789 Deaths due to accidental firearms discharge.
3582 Deaths due to drowning or submersion.
23,618 Deaths from poisoning or noxious substance.
Draw your own conclusions (as I know you will).
No argument that even one accidental death is too many but do try to keep it in perspective.
+1
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Hey guys, I really think we should be serious about this guys question for 2 reasons, 1) the anti civil rights left will be screaming similar questions, 2) Since he is European he probably just doesn't get it.
We don't work on feelings, we go by facts. Fact, An 8 year old should not be firing full auto weapons, Fact, sometimes bad things happen to nice people (simplified as " Sh!t happens") Fact, If the child's parents were more familiar with firearms this unfortunate event would have been less likely. Fact, what makes "danger" in the "Gun culture " of America is the suppression of training and experience pushed by the euro centric socialists of the democratic party. 40 years ago, nearly all kids learned to shoot at an early age through the Boy Scouts, YMCA, or other community or family events, they were taught SAFETY first, there were no age limits on gun ownership and they could be purchased by mail. We did not have school shootings, we had school shooting teams.
The Fact that 80% of murders in the US occur in the 4 cities with the strictest gun laws illustrates the error of your reasoning.
As Ichiban posted, one accidental death is to many but how does it stack up against 100,000 people killed annually by "Medical Misadventure ? 50,000 traffic fatalities ?
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Well, since are talking about accidents, and if you can believe the data from the Center of Disease Control:
For 2005:
789 Deaths due to accidental firearms discharge.
3582 Deaths due to drowning or submersion.
23,618 Deaths from poisoning or noxious substance.
Draw your own conclusions (as I know you will).
No argument that even one accidental death is too many but do try to keep it in perspective.
More fun from the NSC - how we die :
http://www.nsc.org/research/odds.aspx (http://www.nsc.org/research/odds.aspx)
Note the very last stat, medical complications . Don't think this has all the accidental deaths caused by medical professionals -just the complications.
Complications of medical and surgical care and sequelae, Y40-Y84, Y88.0-Y88.3
actual number for 2004 - 2,883 odds of dying from this in one year - 1 in 452,476. Lifetime - 1 in 1,308
Firearms discharge, W32-W34
actual number for 2004 - 649 odds in one year - 1 in 1,249,604. Lifetime - 1 in 5,808
Unfortunately, NSC now charges for the full stats, either in book or cd form.
ps, NSC is more reliable for these stats, CDC is still politically involved with trying to label gun issues like 'disease' epidemics
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Does any one have stats on how many folks are killed because they were trapped in a vehicle by a seatbelt in use?
Eliminating seatbelts to avoid these deaths ignores the greater number of folks saved by their use.
In a similar manner, eliminating firearms to avoid the small number of accidental deaths ignores the much greater number of lives that are saved by the use of firearms by private citizens.
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Does any one have stats on how many folks are killed because they were trapped in a vehicle by a seatbelt in use?
Eliminating seatbelts to avoid these deaths ignores the greater number of folks saved by their use.
In a similar manner, eliminating firearms to avoid the small number of accidental deaths ignores the much greater number of lives that are saved by the use of firearms by private citizens.
2 - 3 MILLION per year.
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Lets all keep this civil.
I've expected this tragedy to get the best out all of us. Don't let the troll succeed in his mission!
Let's be considerate enough an do the right thing.
Thank you all!
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I'm impressed. You guys really know how to argue. There is an 8 year old dead and all you can think of is to pull off that ridiculous stuff. That is cynical. The NRA and the gunlobby has got you brainwashed pretty well I see.
Yes, cars are dangerous. But they are also good for something. AND they are used all the time. If guns were used all the time by so many people, the statistics would be different. Your argumentation is really weak.
Guns don't keep you safe. There are a lot more safe places in the world than the US that don't allow guns. Why wouldn't that work for you? Explain.
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Out of curiosity, where do you live?
Why, do want to hunt me down? Or give me some fake statistics of how much safer my city would be with guns?
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Ignore the varmint!
You are giving him exactly what he wants...... Dont play his game....... Dont let him dictate the discussion on this forum...... besides "You cant fix stupid".
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This is tragic.
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The death of a child, regardless of the cause, is a tragic thing.
My thoughts and prayers go out to his family as well as the others involved (it could get uglier for them as well).
I'm sure the MSM will spin it out of control, especially at this election time frame.
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This thread has been edited.. and rejoined together.
The pictures were uncalled for and I think you all know that.
Please remember to have honor and pride in all your posts.
No matter what the lefties try to whine around about.. it was an accident and my heart pours out to the family and to the instructors and for all involved. The loss of a child is something I can not even fathom..
I agree that this child was too young to be shooting a high power.. (even with supervision and help) and I am sure the parents will blame themselves for the rest of their living days on earth.
But this was not done on purpose, and anyone who thinks that way is truly mentally disturbed.
So... OldEurope... if you are from the old country ( across the big pond , as my husband likes to put it) :) and you do not truly understand the 2nd amendment ..and you joined Down Range for the right reasons.... then there are a host of wonderful caring patriotic men in here that will be more than glad to share information with you. And will enjoy listening to what you have to say also.
If you would like to share information back we would love to have you... If ...on the other hand ..you only came in here to talk liberal pissy assed stuff.. then I doubt you will find many like minded people to talk to.
If that is the case... then my suggestion would be for you to skip on out of here and go find those who think like you do... and you can try to convince each other that you don't need guns...and that guns are bad ..and that all the good guys would be better off without them. ( the bad guys sure like that theory)
But just a word of friendly advice...
When the shit hits the fan....( and it will).. I hope you can dial 911 and there is someone who is left that will give a damn..
Cause if there isn't....................... weeeelllllll... you my good man, will be begging your frightened hind end off for a legal gun carrying citizen to come and save you. ;)
You all have a good day and remember (http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/playnice.gif)
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I'm impressed. You guys really know how to argue. There is an 8 year old dead and all you can think of is to pull off that ridiculous stuff. That is cynical. The NRA and the gunlobby has got you brainwashed pretty well I see.
Yes, cars are dangerous. But they are also good for something. AND they are used all the time. If guns were used all the time by so many people, the statistics would be different. Your argumentation is really weak.
Guns don't keep you safe. There are a lot more safe places in the world than the US that don't allow guns. Why wouldn't that work for you? Explain.
Right. Tell that to my neighbors. He's a survivor of Idi Amin Dada's regime. He was forced to watch executions of his friends and neighbors in the soccer stadium. Marched there at gunpoint. Told me he finally found his way here (through the old Soviet Union, where he went to school and met his wife, then through France and Britain) because of our right to keep and bear arms. He figured as long as we had the means to fight back, it wouldn't happen here. He wasn't so sure of Europe...
And as to my gun not being used 'all the time', guess again. It goes with me all the time, has protected me and my family twice now and myself and some coworkers on an overnight shift once (without the need to shoot it, thankfully). Three times in the seven years I've lived in a right to carry state. And the crime? All the perps involved with my situations were outsourced from gun-free NYC, where they learned the trade on people who couldn't fight back.
And your right to choose to not carry or own a weapon is fine by me. If you live in a country that does trust you with firearms, I wouldn't advertise that fact though. The rest of us make the criminal population unsure of your ability to defend you and yours, and the likelihood of a hot break in at your home is diminished.
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I wonder how an eight year old can even fire an UZI. The grip is fairly large with an awkward grip safety to press while shooting. Very very sad :-[ People (not only kids) should not be allowed to use firearms without proper training and without fully understanding responsibility and consequences of its use. No reason to blame a tool though. The gun laws of a country are the measurement of the freedom of its individuals. And Europe sucks when it comes to freedom. We are owned and over and over again we heartily trade every bit of freedom for false safety promises.
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I wonder how an eight year old can even fire an UZI. The grip is fairly large with an awkward grip safety to press while shooting. Very very sad :-[ People (not only kids) should not be allowed to use firearms without proper training and without fully understanding responsibility and consequences of its use. No reason to blame a tool though. The gun laws of a country are the measurement of the freedom of its individuals. And Europe sucks when it comes to freedom. We are owned and over and over again we heartily trade every bit of freedom for false safety promises.
Another Europeon that gets it.
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Yes, cars are dangerous. But they are also good for something. AND they are used all the time.
So are guns.
Guns don't keep you safe. There are a lot more safe places in the world than the US that don't allow guns. Why wouldn't that work for you?
Yes, there are places in the world which are safer then the US and yes there are places that don't allow guns and yes there are places safer in the world that don't allow guns. However: what makes you say that it is the lack of guns that makes a place safe or for that matter the presence of guns that makes it unsafe?
This remark reminds me of the way the debate about weapon legislation here in The Netherlands usually is conducted: "Research shows that when people have access to guns they..." Well, fill in, as long as it isn't positive.
But what research was that? Who has conducted it and when and where and how? Never have I received an answer on those questions.
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I just heard about this, and it really pisses me off. What kind of idiot parent would let their 8 yr old shoot an UZI, and what kind of half wit shooting instructor would be a party to that decision? This is what happens when you don't set standards and stick to them.
Don't get me wrong, I've had my kids and grandkids at the range with me. When they were real young,it was pellet guns. When they were the age of the poor kid in the story, they graduated to a 22. Even then they had my undivided attention, and I hovered over them like a hawk as long as they handled the weapon.
This type of irresponcibility gives all gun owners a bad name, and all gun clubs increasing liability rates. There is no SASS if you can't afford the insurance.
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Absolute tragedy, and very, very sad. As I wasn't there, its easy to come down hard on the instructor or the parent. Its something the parents and those that were there, will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. Was the parent/instructor holding the UZI, holding the arms, shoulders of the child? Something went really wrong, really quickly, and is going to be fuel to the anti gun crew.
There was a video that showed an 11 year old girl handle a semi auto pistol better than some adults. Situations dictate the circumstance, and it had nothing to do with the 2nd Amend., or those evil guns. Things can happen so fast, and this was a tragic result. My son started with an old .22 with me handing him 1 round at a time, and standing literally on top of him while he fired.
As for the troll, oldeurope, if your intelligence went as far as your sign on name, you would know that it was guns that kept europe from goosestepping today, and many of those guns were carried by Americans, not once but twice, on "Old Europe's behalf".
Do us a favor, there is a bridge that misses you terribly, please go find it.
Sorry Marshal'ette. I'll go take a time out now...
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I've seen videos of younger kids than that shooting machineguns without any problems. I've also seen younger kids shooting more powerful guns. I think my nephew was 5 or 6 the first time he shot my brother's .44 Magnum. I don't think the kid who died was too young to shoot an Uzi. I think he was too weak to control it. The same would apply to my mom and she's old enough to shoot anything, but she's too weak to control it. Does that mean she's too old to shoot a gun? No! Other old people still shoot.
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Here's the link:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/10/27/boy_8_dies_after_accidental_shooting_at_gun_club/
As an owner of several full-autos, this really hits home. The article doesn't give all the details about where the parents were or where the safety officer was at the range when the child was shooting the subgun. Maybe Timothy can fill us in on the details
It's news like this that gives our enemies the grist they need to fuel their gun-banning urges.....
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Full auto.. this is being discussed in the Cafe ....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3784.0
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It is inappropriate for an 8 year old to be firing an Uzi. I can see a .22 rifle, or even an MG on a mount but not something that even adults have difficulty controlling, Many ranges around here will not let anyone shoot who is under 16.
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Old europe, I have a multi source message for you, it comes from Armenia, The European Jewish community, Cambodia, Rwanda,Bosnia and dozens of other places made famous by genocide. You, and those who have brain washed you into believing that guns are "BAD" you are wrong Secondly,You show that you are stupid, guns are inanimate objects, ie tools. Tools just are, it's the use to which they are put that decides good or bad.
I also, have used a pistol to protect my (then )Wife and infant son, so don't give ME your socialist crap.
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I just heard about this, and it really pisses me off. What kind of idiot parent would let their 8 yr old shoot an UZI, and what kind of half wit shooting instructor would be a party to that decision? This is what happens when you don't set standards and stick to them.
Don't get me wrong, I've had my kids and grandkids at the range with me. When they were real young,it was pellet guns. When they were the age of the poor kid in the story, they graduated to a 22. Even then they had my undivided attention, and I hovered over them like a hawk as long as they handled the weapon.
This type of irresponcibility gives all gun owners a bad name, and all gun clubs increasing liability rates. There is no SASS if you can't afford the insurance.
I could see if it was a MOUNTED gun, but most UNTRAINED ADULTS have problems controlling sub guns, and the short size of the Uzi simply compounds the problem.
Many ranges around here will not you shoot at all if you are under 16, I think that's a bit old but since you can't depend on the adults to act like it you have to keep the kids out till they can use a little judgment of their own.
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A absolute tragedy. My heart goes out to all the people who will be affected. Most especially the parents. They will never forgive themselves. Tragedy takes many forms and comes in many different ways, and it is all bad. The pain felt by loved ones never really goes away. Over time, if we are lucky, it does recede in to the back of our minds to be drug out anew when something might trigger a memory. Speaking for myself, someone who lost a brother a long time ago in a snow skiing accident, I never ever felt that skiing should be banned or that my own kids wouldn't be allowed to ski. Tragedy is just that, a tragedy. Sorry, don't know where exactly I was going with this. I feel terrible for the family and friends of this poor child.
As for oldeurope, he obviously doesn't live in Switzerland. An armed populace is what kept them free from the Nazi's.
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I've heard reports that it was a micro uzi, can any confirm this?
its clear that rather it was a full size or a micro, he was not using the shoulder stock( if it had one)
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Seems like we were a bit much for the Liberal troll, oldeurope..............
as usual.. when the kitchen gets a little hot.. they leave the work area...........
He should have stuck around. He actually might have learned something. ;)
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ahhhh... everybody needs to have a little fun. He picked a hell of a subject to jump in on, though.
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This is terrible! I share the sentiments of those in this forum who believe this was an unnecessary and avoidable tragedy.
As an owner of several full-autos (hence the name), I would like to weigh in here. Trigger control is absolutely critical on these types of guns. The picture you see by my moniker is a Finnish AK variant and it fires around 600 rpm. I will not allow anyone to shoot my guns unless they are 18 years of age or older. And then I make them shoot a few rounds on semi to see how they handle them. If they can't get comfortable on semi, there's no way I'm loading a 30 round mag or a 75 round drum and letting them go for it on full-auto.
And lastly, this just feeds our enemies (think oldeurope) grist for this stuff.
We can never be too safe with any gun. This incident is a wake up call for me.....
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Full auto.. this is being discussed in the Cafe ....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3784.0
Thanks, Marshal'ette. I'll head on over and throw in my two cents worth....
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Not sure how you can put an age limit such as 18; does this have to do with physical or mental abilities. I’m not bustin’ on you; it’s just that if we can trust a 10 – 12 year old with a 12ga shotgun on a trap or skeet range how can we place a limit on a select fire firearm. As the former national director of the NSSF’s SCTP (a national clay target program) I have seen high schoolers on the shotgun range that we had to pull off the range because they could not properly handle a shotgun at the same time we had 6th graders breakin’ clays with a 12 ga. I think it all has to do with the individual and his/her physical and mental development, just like with other things such as driving, drinking, etc.
Of course we really don’t know what happened as reports are some what conflicting depending on what site you read. All I know is that a lot of people are deeply affected at this time and the Industry needs to assist were they can.
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All I know is that a lot of people are deeply affected at this time and the Industry needs to assist were they can.
Amen to that!
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Not sure how you can put an age limit such as 18; does this have to do with physical or mental abilities. I’m not bustin’ on you; it’s just that if we can trust a 10 – 12 year old with a 12ga shotgun on a trap or skeet range how can we place a limit on a select fire firearm. As the former national director of the NSSF’s SCTP (a national clay target program) I have seen high schoolers on the shotgun range that we had to pull off the range because they could not properly handle a shotgun at the same time we had 6th graders breakin’ clays with a 12 ga. I think it all has to do with the individual and his/her physical and mental development, just like with other things such as driving, drinking, etc.
Of course we really don’t know what happened as reports are some what conflicting depending on what site you read. All I know is that a lot of people are deeply affected at this time and the Industry needs to assist were they can.
I would say , it's physical, if he had been bigger, he might have been better able to control it. As to your Shot gun comment, it's not relevant, shotguns don't keep firing if you hold the trigger back, and even if a semi auto malfunctions the length of the weapon means the kid will get smacked in the face, not have the barrel tip up under his chin. Which brings up something mentioned by some one else, had he been at least using the stock it would have extended the firearm so the barrel would not have been below face level. A lot of poor judgement was involved, it's a shame.
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Of course most autoloading shotguns are semi and if the firearm got away from the shooter it most likely it would not double. We are missing many pieces of the pie here so we are all just speculating, so far, unless I’ve missed some things on the Net, we still don’t know the young mans size, the exact configuration of the firearm, etc. But I really wanted to address the issue about age . . . is it really germane to the equation? Again I don’t like talking about the death of this person and what his family is going through. It is the age issue that I would like to address. When is it to young for someone, with supervision of their parent or responsible adult, to shoot any firearm? In the Northeast some states restrict youth from hunting big game, while in Mid America youth as young as 12 or so can hunt with an adult.
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I don't think "AGE" really has as much to do with it as "SIZE", as an example, would you have a 4'9" tall woman 45 tears old shoot the same guns you would hand to a 5'8" 16 year old girl ? There would be MAJOR differences in their ability to handle standard size firearms.
But I suspect that judgment, motor control and reaction time played parts in this as well. By the time the victim realized he had a problem he did not have the reactions to get his finger off the trigger in time.
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You are so correct on size as a factor, but I do think the comparison between the 49 year old women and the 16 year old may not be correct. Let’s look at Olympian Kim Rhode who at 13 won her first world championship title in women's double trap shooting and won a gold medal at the 1996 Summer Games, making her the youngest female gold medalist in the history of Olympic shooting at just a few days past her 17th birthday.
Again, I think should be looked at case by case.
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You can say that age is not a factor in this tragedy, only physical size but have you ever seen an 8 year old you would deem capable of physically handeling a full auto firearm. I personally have not, and I come from a family with some monsterous people. I myself am a big man and I don't believe it would have been a responsible thing for me to attempt, at that age. Like I posted previously, I have never fired a full auto firearm, but people who have tell me that without a lot of experience they are difficult to control even for an adult. If the child had been even slightly older, maybe 10 or 11, and big for his age, then I guess the "non issue" argument could be made. (Before someone brings it up: If you are 4ft tall, it doesn't matter if your 8, 18, or 80, you shouldn't be fireing a full auto weapon. However, if your 18 or 80, you atleast have better muscle control and hopefully more experience.) Of course I could be wrong... just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
Swoop
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Old europe, I doubt is either in Europe or European. I'm more towards that person being in one of the liberal internet smoke rooms trying to influence the election. Get a crack in the door on something then crow about their candidate..even at the expense of exploiting tragedy.
Another feel-good, fact-be-damned, take-it-out-of-context voter that feels they have the answers....ignoring the facts of history. Tom did it right when he mentioned, Armenia, the Jews......
We have a fascist regime struggling to come to power. Their supporters are too uneducated and ignorant to see what it is they are supporting---they may be learned people of some facet and intelligent, but they have ignored all but what they wanted to learn at all our perils. The liberals do well for themselves by using many time proven techniques utilized by the Nazis. They whip their crowds to frenzy, they twist their platform to look positive by methods of deception and denial, they stifle free speech by threats, lawsuits and economic bludgeons. The lie, spoken often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the simple minded; and there are many of them, our fellow citizens, among us.
The culmination of liberal efforts, realized or not, are usually assumed by some power-crazed leader some years in the future after a "change". We have only ourselves to blame and this liberal path is not the U.S.A. I grew up in and countless souls have died to defend. As we continue to lose our path here, we become more like peoples abroad lacking the Spirit of God and American values of fairness, justice and freedom we have enjoyed well past 200 years. The path of the fascist abroad, and as we become like others why not here, may well be echoed in words heard in Europe last century and paraphrased from one of our esteemed members here, "Stay in line, shut-up, get in the boxcar."
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As a parent of two gun shooting children, I feel bad for the the parents who lost a son. But as that parent of two kids, who has also started many kids shooting, I know the answer. SUPERVISION. When I take kids out, I am all over them. Never do I turn my back.
I will say a prayer for all involved.
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Oldeurope, I doubt is either in Europe or European. I'm more towards that person being in one of the liberal internet smoke rooms trying to influence the election. Get a crack in the door on something then crow about their candidate.
Another feel-good, fact-be-damned, take-it-out-of-context voter that feels they have the answers....ignoring the facts of history. Tom did it right when he mentioned, Armenia, the Jews......
We have a fascist regime struggling to come to power. Their supporters are too uneducated and ignorant to see what it is they are supporting---they may be learned people of some facet and intelligent, but they have ignored all but what they wanted to learn at all our perils. The liberals do well for themselves by using many time proven techniques utilized by the Nazis. They whip their crowds to frenzy, they twist their platform to look positive by methods of deception and denial, they stifle free speech by threats, lawsuits and economic bludgeons. The lie, spoken often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the simple minded; and there are many of them, our fellow citizens, among us.
The culmination of liberal efforts, realized or not, are usually assumed by some power-crazed leader some years in the future after a "change". We have only ourselves to blame and this liberal path is not the U.S.A. I grew up in and countless souls have died to defend. As we continue to lose our path here, we become more like peoples abroad lacking the Spirit of God and American values of fairness, justice and freedom we have enjoyed well past 200 years. The path of the fascist abroad, and as we become like others why not here, may well be echoed in words heard in Europe last century and paraphrased from one of our esteemed members here, "Stay in line, shut-up, get in the boxcar."
Well said, sir, well said.
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You are so correct on size as a factor, but I do think the comparison between the 49 year old women and the 16 year old may not be correct. Let’s look at Olympian Kim Rhode who at 13 won her first world championship title in women's double trap shooting and won a gold medal at the 1996 Summer Games, making her the youngest female gold medalist in the history of Olympic shooting at just a few days past her 17th birthday.
Again, I think should be looked at case by case.
Scott, I used a woman I used to work with and my ex wife as a teen, people I knew, as I was looking for extremes at 2am ;D
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Not sure how you can put an age limit such as 18; does this have to do with physical or mental abilities. I’m not bustin’ on you; it’s just that if we can trust a 10 – 12 year old with a 12ga shotgun on a trap or skeet range how can we place a limit on a select fire firearm.
The short answer: My guns. My rules.
The long answer:
The issue with age for me has to do with liability and judgment. At age 18 that person is legally responsible for their actions. Also, at that age they have the minimum in judgment that I would find comfortable for me. But keep in mind that age and physical ability are necessary but not sufficient conditions! There is more to it for me.
A little parallel reasoning: Would you feel comfortable letting a 16 year old kid driving your completely original 1967 Chevrolet Corvette Roadster, a car that sells for well over 100K? The kid has their driver's license, they have been driving all of 18 months, and they have been driving their parent's car with no problems. You would not....
And lastly, I have to ask: do you own a select-fire weapon or have owned one? I normally hear things like that from people who have never shot one or have never owned one. "I'm not bustin' on you....."
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Old europe, I doubt is either in Europe or European. I'm more towards that person being in one of the liberal internet smoke rooms trying to influence the election. Get a crack in the door on something then crow about their candidate..even at the expense of exploiting tragedy.
Another feel-good, fact-be-damned, take-it-out-of-context voter that feels they have the answers....ignoring the facts of history. Tom did it right when he mentioned, Armenia, the Jews......
We have a fascist regime struggling to come to power. Their supporters are too uneducated and ignorant to see what it is they are supporting---they may be learned people of some facet and intelligent, but they have ignored all but what they wanted to learn at all our perils. The liberals do well for themselves by using many time proven techniques utilized by the Nazis. They whip their crowds to frenzy, they twist their platform to look positive by methods of deception and denial, they stifle free speech by threats, lawsuits and economic bludgeons. The lie, spoken often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the simple minded; and there are many of them, our fellow citizens, among us.
The culmination of liberal efforts, realized or not, are usually assumed by some power-crazed leader some years in the future after a "change". We have only ourselves to blame and this liberal path is not the U.S.A. I grew up in and countless souls have died to defend. As we continue to lose our path here, we become more like peoples abroad lacking the Spirit of God and American values of fairness, justice and freedom we have enjoyed well past 200 years. The path of the fascist abroad, and as we become like others why not here, may well be echoed in words heard in Europe last century and paraphrased from one of our esteemed members here, "Stay in line, shut-up, get in the boxcar."
I second that!!
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Like I posted previously, I have never fired a full auto firearm, but people who have tell me that without a lot of experience they are difficult to control even for an adult.
Swoop,
I agree with your general point. However, they are not all difficult to control. Some are easier than others. The biggest thing is people misjudge the recoil and they hold them incorrectly when firing.
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The short answer: My guns. My rules.
The long answer:
The issue with age for me has to do with liability and judgment. At age 18 that person is legally responsible for their actions. Also, at that age they have the minimum in judgment that I would find comfortable for me. But keep in mind that age and physical ability are necessary but not sufficient conditions! There is more to it for me.
A little parallel reasoning: Would you feel comfortable letting a 16 year old kid driving your completely original 1967 Chevrolet Corvette Roadster, a car that sells for well over 100K? The kid has their driver's license, they have been driving all of 18 months, and they have been driving their parent's car with no problems. You would not....
And lastly, I have to ask: do you own a select-fire weapon or have owned one? I normally hear things like that from people who have never shot one or have never owned one. "I'm not bustin' on you....."
Fortunately I have family & friends with various select fire / class 3 firearms, so all I have to do is feed them when I wish to let ‘er rip. Also I spent over 12 years managing a gun store with an indoor range. Several times we had a class 3 dealer bring in some of his firearms for “special machinegun days” at the range. Similar to what is described in the story. The general public could come in, and for a small fee plus ammo, could shoot the sub machine gun of their choice.
As far as machine guns I have shot (again thanks to family & friends) include: Uzi- 9mm, Swedish K – 9mm, S&W Mod 76 – 9mm (my favorite), M-16 A2 - .223, Ruger AC556 - .223, H&K MP5K – 9mm, H&K G3 – 308, FN FAL - .308, Japanese Type 92 – 7.7mm, Mauser Mod 712 – 7.63mm (the hardest one for me to shoot), Ingram M10 - .45ACP & 9mm, Ingram M11 - .389 acp., Erma MP40 – 9mm, H&R M14 - .308, Browning 1918A2 - .30-06.
It is interesting that I’ve never shot either the Valmet or other AK variants in fullauto, though I have shot them on semi. I must say we used to sale a few Valmet semis and they seem to be the best made and appearing AK variant, along with Galil.
Also one of my clients is the Gen. George S. Patton Museum. I’ve had the chance to explore their gun vault, while I haven’t had a chance to shoot some of the items, I did get the chance to handle (fondle more like it) some nice pieces!
Again I don’t own any class 3’s but being in the Shooting Industry for over 30 years I’ve had a chance, through class 3 dealers, Police departments and factory reps to shoot many fun guns and interesting (well all guns are fun). I’ve been very fortunate to say the least!!
You said . . . “your guns – your rules” you are correct. I just believe when it comes to age and size to determine when a person can shoot should be done on a case by case basis. I guess you can say . . . “my rules”
Enjoy your Valmet!
Scott
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If any of you can find it, the movie RUN, with Patrick Dempsey shows what happens with a mac 10, to the uninitiated, the midgrip, without a shoulder stock, is a pivot point, and it can go up, down, left or right, very quickly, I still don't know if the Uzi had a shoulder stock. I have a friend still living, that took his Colt gold cup apart and reassembled it incorrectly, went onto the range that he worked at and dropped the slide on a full magazine with 1 hand, it went full auto, and he was definitely not ready, it pivoted in his strong hand, and he got hit in his left arm 3 times, Lucky, Lucky.
Many prayers to the family, and the young man. I think he was having the time of his life, just before the accident.
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If any of you can find it, the movie RUN, with Patrick Dempsey shows what happens with a mac 10, to the uninitiated, the midgrip, without a shoulder stock, is a pivot point, and it can go up, down, left or right, very quickly, I still don't know if the Uzi had a shoulder stock. I have a friend still living, that took his Colt gold cup apart and reassembled it incorrectly, went onto the range that he worked at and dropped the slide on a full magazine with 1 hand, it went full auto, and he was definitely not ready, it pivoted in his strong hand, and he got hit in his left arm 3 times, Lucky, Lucky.
Many prayers to the family, and the young man. I think he was having the time of his life, just before the accident.
Even though I used to work as a forensic investigator with the M.E.’s office and worked many different cases, I still can’t imagine what the family is going through. One of the reasons I don’t do that anymore. Usually bad things happen to bad people. But in this case a family was out having a great bonding experience and tragedy happens . . . things happen like this in all different sports and pastimes and we must learn and build from this accident and not cast blame.
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This topic has been split.
For those who want to continue discussing political and RKBA issues, go to this post (http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3917.0).
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This topic has been split.
For those who want to continue discussing political and RKBA issues, go to this post (http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3917.0).
Thanks but no thanks. I can live without either side of this one anymore.
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Just a current update for those that might want to know, not to stir anything up:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081204/ap_on_re_us/boy_shoots_himself
Gun club, police chief indicted in boy's Uzi death
By STEPHANIE REITZ, Associated Press Writer
SPRINGFIELD, Mass. – Three men, including a small-town police chief, were indicted Thursday on involuntary manslaughter counts in the gun-fair death of an 8-year-old who accidentally shot himself in the head with an Uzi that a prosecutor said he never should have been allowed to handle.
The club where the fair was held also was charged. The fair had promised shooters would have certified instructors in an advertisement, but District Attorney William Bennett said the child, Christopher Bizilj, was supervised by an uncertified 15-year-old boy.
Christopher, of Ashford, Conn., lost control of the 9mm micro submachine gun as it recoiled while he was firing at a pumpkin Oct. 26 at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club in western Massachusetts.
Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury was charged because he owns the sponsor of the gun fair, COP Firearms & Training. Two men who brought the automatic weapon to the show, Carl Guiffre of Hartford, Conn., and Domenico Spano, of New Milford, Conn., also were indicted.
An involuntary manslaughter conviction carries a maximum 20-year prison sentence and $1,000 fine. The term could be five years or less for someone with no prior convictions.
Fleury and the club also were indicted on four counts each of furnishing a machine gun to a minor. A conviction on each count is punishable by up to 10 years in prison, up to $10,000 in fines and the loss of a firearms license for at least 10 years.
Bennett said prosecutors know of at least four children, including Christopher, who fired automatic weapons at the fair. He added that Fleury had wrongly assured Guiffre and Spano that it was legal for children to use the Uzi under Massachusetts law.
"A Micro Uzi is made by and for the Israeli Armed Forces and is intended to meet the operational needs of Israeli Special Forces," Bennett said, noting that the weapon has a rate of fire of 20 to 25 rounds per second. "It is not a hunting weapon."
Thomas Drechsler, an attorney for the club, said it continues to extend its "deepest sympathy" to the Bizilj family, but denies any wrongdoing. He said neither the club nor any member gave the Uzi to Christopher or any children, and weren't in the immediate area when the accident happened.
"The club is disappointed by the indictment," he said. "The club's intention is to plead not guilty and the club denies they participated in any criminal act."
Fleury, Guiffre and Spano did not immediately return calls for comment.
The machine gun shoot drew hundreds of people to the sporting club's 375-acre compound. An advertisement said it would include machine gun demonstrations and rentals and free handgun lessons.
"It's all legal & fun — No permits or licenses required!!!!" reads the ad, posted on the club's Web site.
"You will be accompanied to the firing line with a Certified Instructor to guide you. But You Are In Control — "FULL AUTO ROCK & ROLL," the ad said.
The ad also said children under 16 would be admitted free, and both adults and children were offered free .22-caliber pistol and rifle shooting.
Christopher's father was 10 feet behind him and reaching for his camera when the child fired the weapon.
Bennett said Charles Bizilj (pronounced bah-SEAL') had selected the compact weapon for his 4-foot-3, 66-pound son to fire after he was assured it was safe. He had thought the Uzi's small size made it safer, but the opposite was true, the prosecutor said.
"Although it might appear a heavier or longer weapon would be more dangerous, the small size of the weapon together with the rapid rate of fire made it more likely that an 8-year-old would lose control and the muzzle of the weapon would come close to his face, which is what happened here," he said.
The father was not charged because he was a layman and based his decision on information from others who should have known it was too dangerous, Bennett said. The 15-year-old boy who was supervising Christopher with the Uzi also will not be charged, he added.
Christopher's family did not immediately return a call seeking comment. His father has said his son had experience firing handguns and rifles but the gun show was his first time with an automatic weapon.
Fleury, the police chief, has been on sick leave since the boy's death, according to Kim Leahey, administrative aide for the Pelham Board of Selectmen. Leahey said the board would have no statement on the indictment until it consults its attorneys.
Fleury is one of two full time officers in Pelham. In a statement issued shortly after the accident, the board said Fleury's company was a "purely personal pursuit" and not subject to their approval.
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Just a current update for those that might want to know, not to stir anything up:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081204/ap_on_re_us/boy_shoots_himself
Gun club, police chief indicted in boy's Uzi death
"A Micro Uzi is made by and for the Israeli Armed Forces and is intended to meet the operational needs of Israeli Special Forces," Bennett said, noting that the weapon has a rate of fire of 20 to 25 rounds per second. "It is not a hunting weapon."
What, EXACTLY, does that have to do with ANYTHING!
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What, EXACTLY, does that have to do with ANYTHING!
That is a clever ploy to promulgate the notion that the only firearms that should be owned are those for hunting. Remember Obama made frequent claims that he respected the rights of hunters, completely ignoring the other 50% of the shooting population.
As for other PIFs, the anti-gun crowd will state that if one wants to shoot these types of weapons, they should join the military where they can get all they want......
This is all a ruse since the animal rights wackos will never tolerate hunting and they are closely aligned with the anti-gun groups too.
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the child, Christopher Bizilj, was supervised by an uncertified 15-year-old boy
Well, there's the problem. And it being a Micro-Uzi that weighs about 3 pounds rather than a full-size Uzi that weighs over 8 pounds makes all the difference in the world. I kept wondering how the recoil of little pistol cartridges in something that weighs more than a rifle could be that bad, even for a kid.
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the child, Christopher Bizilj, was supervised by an uncertified 15-year-old boy
Well, there's the problem. And it being a Micro-Uzi that weighs about 3 pounds rather than a full-size Uzi that weighs over 8 pounds makes all the difference in the world. I kept wondering how the recoil of little pistol cartridges in something that weighs more than a rifle could be that bad, even for a kid.
I've never handled an Uzi, I'm stunned that it weighs that much.
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I've never handled an Uzi, I'm stunned that it weighs that much.
Yep. It weighs more than an assualt rifle, but it's a measly little 9mm. That's why whenever someone tells me they want an Uzi I ask why. A CAR-15 is almost 3 pounds lighter.
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I don't know about any of you, but I have never been to a gunshow that had live fire exhibits.
http://my.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20081215/4945e450_3421_1334520081215-1117596935
Gun clubs tout safety record after boy's Uzi death
By DENISE LAVOIE (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
December 15, 2008 6:01 AM EST
BOSTON - Gun control advocates hope that manslaughter indictments in the death of an 8-year-old who accidentally shot himself in the head with an Uzi at a gun show will deter other gun shows from allowing children to fire weapons.
But enthusiasts say gun ranges are remarkably safe and that most shows do not feature live shooting like the one in Westfield where Christopher Bizilj, of Ashford, Connecticut, lost control of the powerful automatic weapon while aiming at a pumpkin.
James Wallace, executive director of the Gun Owners' Action League, a membership-based organization that represents individual gun owners and gun clubs around Massachusetts, said the clubs have a near-perfect safety record.
"We look at safety so seriously that any accident, especially a fatal accident like this, is going to rock our members for years," Wallace said.
"But this is so rare; if you look at other activities kids are involved in, shooting sports at the ranges is probably the safest activity kids can get involved in," he said.
Christopher attended the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's club on Oct. 26 with his father and brother. The fair's ads promised shooters with certified instructors, but prosecutors said last week Christopher was supervised by an uncertified 15-year-old boy when the accident occurred.
The gun club, two men who supplied the weapons and a small town police chief who owns a company that sponsored the fair were all indicted last week on involuntary manslaughter charges. In addition to the manslaughter charges, the police chief and the club were also indicted on four counts each of furnishing a machine gun to a minor.
But the criminal charges may have little effect on how gun shows are run in Massachusetts, which already has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation.
State law says it is legal for children to fire a rifle or shotgun if they have parental consent and are supervised by a certified instructor. But it is illegal in Massachusetts to furnish a child with a machine gun under any circumstances.
Most gun shows in the state are events where guns are bought and sold, but they do not feature live shooting.
NewMart Promotions, a New York company that sponsors several gun shows in Massachusetts, including a popular annual show at the Western States Exposition in West Springfield, has no live shooting at any of its events.
"We don't even allow loaded guns in the shows. Every gun is emptied at the door by the West Springfield police," said Martin Fasack, director of NewMart.
Gun control supporters hope the indictments in Massachusetts will deter promoters in other states where shoots offering children the chance to fire machine guns are more common.
"This sends a strong message nationwide that other gun clubs who are engaging in these kinds of machine gun shoots could face criminal penalties if they don't stop this sort of dangerous conduct," said Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington D.C.
Vice said there are no federal regulations governing live shoots at gun shows. The events are regulated by each state. In most states, a child could walk into a gun show and fire an Uzi legally, he said.
Ralph Scott, who organizes the Southern-Ohio Machinegun Shoot in Minford, Ohio, said he hires certified range officers to stand at each of the 20 positions at his shooting range to oversee each person firing a weapon. Scott said the vast majority of people who come to the shoot are adults, but when a child comes with a parent, the instructors make decisions on a case-by-case basis when a child asks to shoot one of the machine guns.
The range officers stand with and help any child who shoots a machine gun, Scott said.
"It has to do with ability, competency and being able to listen to instructions," Scott said.
"It's tightly, tightly controlled," he said. "There are multiple layers of safety built into this thing."
Still, Scott said Christopher's death made him look again at safety precautions.
"I think it's an awful thing," he said. "Anytime anybody gets hurt, anytime there's a lapse in safety, somebody needs to re-evaluate what happened because something wasn't taken care of. It just makes me more vigilant."