The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: jaybet on October 30, 2008, 07:51:19 AM
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Being a bear of very little brain and too lazy to look things up, what is the conventional wisdom about .380 vs 9mm vs .38 Sp? They are all of similar diameter, but for some reason I've always thought of .380 as less powerful or effective as either 9m or .38? Anybody have facts, experience, innuendo, or unfounded predjuice that would shed some light on this subject?
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9 X 19 Luger wins in muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, followed by the 9mm Kurz (.380) and lastly the .38sp with closely weighted bullets. It may vary somewhat based on the manufacturer but that's what my research has shown. Barrel length will play an important role as well....
Federal 9mm 124 gr - 1170muzzle/345 energy
Federal .380 90gr JHP - 1000 muzzle/200 energy
Federal .38sp 110 gr JHP - 943 muzzle/217 energy
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Many variables, eg barrel length.
The following will put things in more perspective:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0
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I can't be really specific but when I had my SR9 and LCP out at the same time plinking and such I always found myself saying "wow that didn't do much" when comparing 9mm damge/penetration to 380auto.
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I can't be really specific but when I had my SR9 and LCP out at the same time plinking and such I always found myself saying "wow that didn't do much" when comparing 9mm damge/penetration to 380auto.
I'm not surprised, .380 has about 1/2 the powder of a 9mm, that's why it's also known as 9mm short or Kurz.
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Now we're getting somewhere....380 is a 9mm short.."Kurz"... I know a guy who's family name is Kurz...does that mean they are, y'know, short?
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Off the net...
"Introduced by the Belgium firm FN in 1912, the 9mm Browning short is one of several pistol cartridge designed by John Browning. In some European countries, this cartridge has also been designated as the 9mm Kurz and 9mm Corto, but in the United Sates it goes by the name of .380 Automatic or .380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)
Although the more powerful 9mm Parabellum has enjoyed greater popularity over the years, thousands upon thousands of autoloading pistols have been manufactured in .380 ACP. Many American and foreign arms makers have offered or continue to offer compact pistols in this caliber including Colt, Savage, Remington, Llama, Star, FIE, Browning, Walther, and Beretta. Various European police departments have adopted the .380 and it has even gained status as a military cartridge in countries such as Sweeden, Italy, and Czechoslovakia.
In the United States, the .380 ACP is classified as a cartridge best suited for self defense. This is as it should be simply because the pistols available in this caliber aren't designed for sporting use. The .380 cartridge is powerful enough for taking varmint sized game cleanly at close to medium ranges, but the relatively poor accuracy of most pistols in this caliber limits its effective range to about 15 short paces."
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Wow it's almost funny to read the last two paragraphs and wonder if they are speaking about the same round. The second paragraph ends with talking about the 380 being used for police and military use then a few sentances later it is called a good varmint round.
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I watched a police dash cam video last year of a cop trying to subdue a large man, probably twice the cops size and weight. The cop tried and tried to slow this guy down and finally resorted to pulling his 9mm service pistol and shooting the perp. The video clearly showed three rounds, center mass from about 12" away and they did absolutely nothing to slow the progress of the perp. He continued to beat the living snot out of the poor cop!
Personally, I'll keep the .45 ACP for defense....if I ever (God forbid) have to use it, the perp is not getting back up!
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The .380 will be less powerful - it's a shorter case, and most pistols chambered for .380 are very short-barrel firearms. The 9mm is usually found in 9x19, but there are longer variants like 9x21 and 9x23, mostly in Europe (at least for competition guns). 115g and 147g bullets are most popular. The .38 special is the same diameter, but it's typically a revolver round, with a much larger (longer) case than the other two. Load data is all over the place, and is a good indicator of what you can expect with respect to performance for each round.
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Now we're getting somewhere....380 is a 9mm short.."Kurz"... I know a guy who's family name is Kurz...does that mean they are, y'know, short?
Actually, it means that the original family member to wear that name probably WAS short , like Carpenter, Joiner, Cooper, etc.
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Wow it's almost funny to read the last two paragraphs and wonder if they are speaking about the same round. The second paragraph ends with talking about the 380 being used for police and military use then a few sentances later it is called a good varmint round.
Glock manufactures a .380 police and military model (25/28?), but you can't own one in the US. Doesn't meet import restrictions - go figure. I like the Glock 26 (9mm) as my IWB carry gun.
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I like my PPK/s in .380 for ccw. I've fired tactical ammo into Georgia red clay. (Thicker than ballistic gelatin, but not as stiff as a phone book.) Beautiful mushrooms in 6-8" penetration.
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9mm +P will get you 466 ft/lbs from the 115 gr Corbons
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Worldwide I think you’ll find the 9mm/.380 family one of the most popular handgun loads. Here in the US until a decade or so ago the .38spl/.357mag family was probably the most popular for defense. Of course they surpassed the .32 S&W family which was popular in the early 1900’s.
While the 9mm & .38 are very similar in diameter, the .38 is slightly larger at .357 diameter and the 9mm family are .355 in diameter. I remember reading in the gun magazines in the late 80’s and early 90’s when the big debate was raging about replacing the .45 with the 9mm in the US military that some scribes were spouting that the European’s must be weaker because they used the 9 and w used the 45 . . . man the adoption of the 9 sure caused a lot of discussion! Of course that was before the development of the great bullet designs we have now. While I have a couple of 9mm pistols and one AR in that caliber as well as several .380’s it’s not my number one caliber to carry. If I need a smaller handgun I’ll carry a S&W 640 or a Colt Detective Special. When I can carry a bigger caliber it’s a 40 or 45 in auto and a .357 in a big revolver.
Back to the .380 / 9mm question, when I was with the ME’s office in the 90’s I worked many gun shoot cases and have based many of my carry ideas based on what I witnessed. I once worked a case of a Deputy Sheriff killed in the line of duty (one of my worst days on the job). The deputy was hit three times with a .380 FMJ and two 12 ga shotgun slugs. We really didn’t believe the .380 wounds would have been fatal. Of course these days we have superior bullet designs that are made to work with specific calibers and speeds. In the case of .380 vs 9mm while they are the same diameter they operate at totally different speeds. Yesteryear they might have used FMJ bullets, but today most .380 HP’s are designed for that specific speed as opposed to the 9x19 projectile which is designed to perform at a greater speed.
I’m sure you can find reliable antidotal from fellow Downrangers to help you decide on caliber and bullet design.
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maybe this site will help
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
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http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
try this just select cal and bullet weight
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Wow. Some .380 ammo is better than 9mm FMJ. I didn't know that. .45 ACP is the only ball ammo that's any good IMO. If your hollow-point magic bullets fail and act like a FMJ, bigger is always better. Having twice as much weight and 1/10" larger diameter helps when things go bad.
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Looked at the figures handload.com for the three calibers. I compared the 38 w/125 gr Federal Nycads, 9mm 124 gr w/Federal HydraSkok/Nycad and 380 90 gr w/Corbon JHP and Federal HydraShok . 38 had 63 One Shot Stops (OSS) w/2" barrel. 9mm had 83% out of 1198 shootings w/69 of those shootings with =<4" barrels. 380 had 55-71% OSS, no mention of barrel length. With those parameters, I don't think you can draw good conclusions due to unequal barrel lengths.
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Wow. Some .380 ammo is better than 9mm FMJ. I didn't know that. .45 ACP is the only ball ammo that's any good IMO. If your hollow-point magic bullets fail and act like a FMJ, bigger is always better. Having twice as much weight and 1/10" larger diameter helps when things go bad.
Plus if things really go south and you have a .45 you can crawl up the barrel and hide.
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From FBI test through heavy cloth into ballistic gelatin, avg of 5 rounds:
85/380 Silvertip, 9.1 inches/.47 caliber
125/38 Silvertip, 12.9/.45
115/9 Silvertip, 11.8/.58
145/357 Silvertip, 12.9/.64
155/40 Silvertip, 13.1/.71
185/45 Silvertip, 10.9/.73
90/380 Hydra-Shok, 12/.49
147/38 HS 14/.59
129/38 HS, 18.6/.41
147/9 HS, 15/.57
158/357 HS, 34.5/.46
180/40 HS, 19.8/.58
230/45 HS, 16.3/.66