The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: oldeurope on November 03, 2008, 11:29:03 AM
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Old europe, I doubt is either in Europe or European....
Wrong! I was born and raised in Europe.
Don't be so paranoid. I'm moved, how some here seem to "regret", that I left, after you all have been sooo kind to me ;-) So here I am again.
I did live in the US for a year and did learn a lot about that great country of yours. I also met a lot of people whom I really respected/admired who owned guns themselves.
I understand america probably a lot more than some here do the rest of the world - then again those don't give a ... anyways.
Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with amendmend 2, BUT...
Practically there are too many people not responsible enough or just too plain stupid to handle guns responsibly. Also, the 2nd amendment is too often used as a sorry excuse by guncrazy idiots. Freedoms are cool, when people can handle them. And by the way masses of idiots with guns can very well be a threat to democracy. I know this is unpopular here, but regulation could do some good here. When guns get too much importance in peoples lives this can easily corrupt trust and solidarity among people. That is not good and very unamerican. Guns are not the origin of problems, but they can help to promote them, rather then solve them.
Just a little insight into my head - I don't think many here will appriciate it, though. And very few seemed open minded enough to talk about stuff. That's why I left. NOT because it got hot in the kitchen, like someone remarked.
By the way: I was taught how to shoot in the US. I observed the fascination it has and decided, that it wasn't for me. I'm convinced, that guns require a sound mind and a balanced character. Unfortunately other problems in your society prevent many people to acquire exactly that.
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Wrong! I was born and raised in Europe.
Don't be so paranoid. I'm moved, how some here seem to "regret", that I left, after you all have been sooo kind to me ;-) So here I am again.
I did live in the US for a year and did learn a lot about that great country of yours. I also met a lot of people whom I really respected/admired who owned guns themselves.
I understand america probably a lot more than some here do the rest of the world - then again those don't give a ... anyways.
Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with amendmend 2, BUT...
Practically there are too many people not responsible enough or just too plain stupid to handle guns responsibly. Also, the 2nd amendment is too often used as a sorry excuse by guncrazy idiots. Freedoms are cool, when people can handle them. And by the way masses of idiots with guns can very well be a threat to democracy. I know this is unpopular here, but regulation could do some good here. When guns get too much importance in peoples lives this can easily corrupt trust and solidarity among people. That is not good and very unamerican. Guns are not the origin of problems, but they can help to promote them, rather then solve them.
Just a little insight into my head - I don't think many here will appriciate it, though. And very few seemed open minded enough to talk about stuff. That's why I left. NOT because it got hot in the kitchen, like someone remarked.
By the way: I was taught how to shoot in the US. I observed the fascination it has and decided, that it wasn't for me. I'm convinced, that guns require a sound mind and a balanced character. Unfortunately other problems in your society prevent many people to acquire exactly that.
Back to your bridge before someone sics a Billy goat on you.
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So... OldEurope... if you are from the old country ( across the big pond , as my husband likes to put it) :) and you do not truly understand the 2nd amendment ..and you joined Down Range for the right reasons.... then there are a host of wonderful caring patriotic men in here that will be more than glad to share information with you. And will enjoy listening to what you have to say also.
If you would like to share information back we would love to have you... If ...on the other hand ..you only came in here to talk liberal pissy assed stuff.. then I doubt you will find many like minded people to talk to.
If that is the case... then my suggestion would be for you to skip on out of here and go find those who think like you do... and you can try to convince each other that you don't need guns...and that guns are bad ..and that all the good guys would be better off without them. ( the bad guys sure like that theory)
But just a word of friendly advice...
When the shit hits the fan....( and it will).. I hope you can dial 911 and there is someone who is left that will give a damn..
Cause if there isn't....................... weeeelllllll... you my good man, will be begging your frightened hind end off for a legal gun carrying citizen to come and save you. ;)
Weeeelll, why do you ask me to leave and then post that I chickened out when I do?
I didn't know forums are "off bounds" to people of a different mindsets - that's interesting...
We'll all get really far, when we discuss things with people who share our opinions exactly.
And thanks for the friendly advice. That's one way to see it. What do I do, if that "Bad Guy" has a more powerful gun or is faster with it? Do I have to spend all of my spare time practising? Become a Ninja Fighter? Join the marines? Life is full of risks, you live quite relaxed (and quite safe) when everyone acknowledges that fact.
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Back to your bridge before someone sics a Billy goat on you.
Sorry, my vocab is not up to date. What do you mean by that? It doesn't sound friendly, but honestly, I don't know what you mean.
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Sorry, my vocab is not up to date. What do you mean by that? It doesn't sound friendly, but honestly, I don't know what you mean.
Sorry, It's a sarcastic / humorous way of saying that I think you are an internet troll trying to use the unfortunate death of a child to stir dissension. It is a reference to the Fairy tale of the 3 Billy Goats Gruff, from the Grimm collection.
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I didn't know forums are "off bounds" to people of a different mindsets - that's interesting...
We'll all get really far, when we discuss things with people who share our opinions exactly.
I wouldn't say that this forum is only open to those of like mind, but the "debate" can get pretty hot and heavy when we are challenged. If you wish to enter that kind of debate we will use it as an exercise to keep ourselves strong. If you are only here to stir the pot and cause trouble it will not be pleasant.
If you want to try something just for fun you can always ask Haz for a recommendation on clips. He is really helpful ;D
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Sorry, It's a sarcastic / humorous way of saying that I think you are an internet troll trying to use the unfortunate death of a child to stir dissension.
No, I'm not using anything. I was truly angry and shocked. I was interested, how people who like guns react to that. And I was also a little shocked to see, that no one took this tragedy as a trigger to reflect...
I mean besides: UZIs aren't for kids.
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Weeeelll, why do you ask me to leave and then post that I chickened out when I do?
I didn't know forums are "off bounds" to people of a different mindsets - that's interesting...
We'll all get really far, when we discuss things with people who share our opinions exactly.
And thanks for the friendly advice. That's one way to see it. What do I do, if that "Bad Guy" has a more powerful gun or is faster with it? Do I have to spend all of my spare time practising? Become a Ninja Fighter? Join the marines? Life is full of risks, you live quite relaxed (and quite safe) when everyone acknowledges that fact.
What if and do I have to? What if my aunt had balls, would I have to call her uncle then?
What if the Bad Guy has a bigger gun or is faster with it? Is that relevant in a situation where having a firearm at home is a crime, like it is here in the Netherlands? I am not a criminal, nor do I want to be, so I do not have a gun at home.
Home invasions though do occur in the Netherlands. Maybe not as often and frequently as in the USA, but they do occur here. So, because of it being a very slim chance I do not have a "need" for a firearm as a tool for self protection? Some people here in the Netherlands have decided that that is the way it should be, as if these people can guarantee that my home will never be invaded. But who will catch the bullet with my name on it when it has been fired because I was not able to defend myself?
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No, I'm not using anything. I was truly angry and shocked. I was interested, how people who like guns react to that. And I was also a little shocked to see, that no one took this tragedy as a trigger to reflect...
There is little to reflect upon, an unfortunate accident occurred, We have discussed many possible contributing factors but the news stories have not provided enough details to draw any REAL conclusions as to how or if this could have been avoided.
Statistically firearms accidents list so far down on actuarial tables as to be irrelevant. To put it crudely "sh!t happens" but it happens at an astronomically higher rate with Cars, stairs,and swimming pools. Are you aware that in the US with the best medical profession in the world there are 100,000 annual cases of "Medical misadventure", that's "death by doctors mistake ".
To support Ocin's post, compare the number of "Home invasions" in England with the number that occur in Switzerland.
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Here's something:
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
It's a scholarly article about how the NAZI's handled firearms ownership.....
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oldeurope,
I am a bit late as my schedule has not put me close to a computer since the aforementioned happened. After reading through the thread I noticed you started as a guest and have joined the form. Welcome.
Please be advised, however, that when you start a conversation throwing "rocks" here, there will be some incoming shortly thereafter. There are strongly held beliefs from a variety of folks. And they will let you know. IM Haz and ask the difference between clips and magazines. ;D
I understand that you have visited our country and have some unique viewpoints. I also understand that there are different mindsets: Old Europe (the place not your name) and the New World (the USA). There is a reason for the differentiation. Just a quick history lesson: The USA was formed by people who threw off the "old" world thought of control to a "new" world of freedom. When you break down the gun issue addressed here it will go back to that simple concept. You mentioned, "Practically there are too many people not responsible enough or just too plain stupid to handle guns responsibly. Also, the 2nd amendment is too often used as a sorry excuse by guncrazy idiots. Freedoms are cool, when people can handle them." When approached from a control standpoint (old world thought) this would seem to be a logical progression. The question I would ask is: Who will be the arbiter of responsibly? Who decides? This becomes the proverbial "sticky wicket". You are at the mercy of the powers that be at the time. Now I could insert an ominous reference to some bad guy, but I will let you insert your own.
As for the Freedom standpoint (new world thought), everyone has "inalienable rights" (We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...) in other words, when the new world threw off the shackles of the old world used the very document that declared our independence to show that freedom was the basis and not control. This was further illustrated by the Bill of Rights that included the dreaded 2nd Amendment. The rights mentioned therein are limits to the government's power not the individual's. Without the 2nd amendment the rest are just some good ideas on paper. The 2nd gives the Bill of Rights teeth. Dig up King George and ask him.
Now that I've bored you completely, back to the issue at hand. When one uses an isolated incident, that person's world view will temper how the incident is viewed. This is why you ran afoul of most here. The loss of a child's life in such an unnecessary manner sickens all. To add a political agenda to that loss would raise the ire of any "new worlder".
Thanks for joining and I look forward to future conversations. Just remember, if you are asking questions to advance an agenda there will be some spirited exchanges. If you ask with an open mind the exchanges may still be spirited but you will learn as will we.
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Brosometal, That was well said. As usual ;D
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................... When guns get too much importance in peoples lives this can easily corrupt trust and solidarity among people. That is not good and very unamerican. Guns are not the origin of problems, but they can help to promote them, rather then solve them.
Just a little insight into my head - I don't think many here will appriciate it, though. ..............
By the way: I was taught how to shoot in the US. I observed the fascination it has and decided, that it wasn't for me. I'm convinced, that guns require a sound mind and a balanced character. Unfortunately other problems in your society prevent many people to acquire exactly that.
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
As we are possibly on the eve of what, in Obama, may become a legacy of fascism as eschewed by liberal actions parralleling no less the initiatives of those who supported Hitler, your argument being shallow and without merit is at once both childish and narcissic.
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Now that I've bored you completely, back to the issue at hand.
Not boring at all. Thanks for this post.
Watch out here comes a new "rock", but it's not meant as a provocation, honestly. It's something I would like to exchange thoughts on. Even in the US you will have to agree, certain rights are controlled. Let's look at the issue of gay marriage. In many places they don't have the right to have equal rights -- to be created equal. I do have a feeling though, that not 5% of the people who fight passionately for 2nd A. would stir a finger to help to promote gay marriage. From an outside perspective, you develop a scepticism - is it really about rights and freedom or is a great deal of the original spirit perverted by "guncraziness" excuse my language, but I've seen people who I have difficulty to describe differently - obviously you are not one of them.
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http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
As we are possibly on the eve of what, in Obama, may become a legacy of fascism as eschewed by liberal actions parralleling no less the initiatives of those who supported Hitler, your argument being shallow and without merit is at once both childish and narcissic.
Ok, if that makes me childish and narcistic, I would be interested, what you or other people here think, your comment tells about you.
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And I was also a little shocked to see, that no one took this tragedy as a trigger to reflect... by oldeurope....
Very presumptuous assertion, reflect on what? The .000001 percent of gun owners that are idiots? The exponentially higher numbers of idiot drivers? The fact that there will always be a tiny portion of a society that "pervert" a right.
Your position is not supported by factual,statistical, raw data.
Here's what I reflect, I don't want a Nanny state. I don't want a government to consider the citizenry too irresponsible as a whole to own firearms, due to the .000001 percent that are idiots.
Here's another statistic, criminals will get, acquire, and use firearms. REGARDLESS! 100% of the time. After all an unarmed victim is easy work. Perhaps the lemming mentality works for you and your ilk, but I prefer not to be a sheep led by the nose of a cradle to grave entitlement government that knows what's best for me,,,,Because they dont!
Here's a quote from an American who set the foundation of what most here believe.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
Thomas Jefferson
This is also a "firearm-related" forum not a soap box for your next "stone" re: gay marriage,....
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And I was also a little shocked to see, that no one took this tragedy as a trigger to reflect... by oldeurope....
Very presumptuous assertion, reflect on what? The .000001 percent of gun owners that are idiots? The exponentially higher numbers of idiot drivers? The fact that there will always be a tiny portion of a society that "pervert" a right.
Your position is not supported by factual,statistical, raw data.
Here's what I reflect, I don't want a Nanny state. I don't want a government to consider the citizenry too irresponsible as a whole to own firearms, due to the .000001 percent that are idiots.
Here's another statistic, criminals will get, acquire, and use firearms. REGARDLESS! 100% of the time. After all an unarmed victim is easy work. Perhaps the lemming mentality works for you and your ilk, but I prefer not to be a sheep led by the nose of a cradle to grave entitlement government that knows what's best for me,,,,Because they dont!
Here's a quote from an American who set the foundation of what most here believe.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
Thomas Jefferson
This is also a "firearm-related" forum not a soap box for your next "stone" re: gay marriage,....
Well said, well said indeed.
Your reply obviously hits to the heart that oldeurope takes isolated instances and attempts to frame them as the norm. Typical liberal/socialist tactic.....coupled with feeble attempts at "bridge building" or "Kumbaya" as it were. Then use that improper comparison and relationship to frame the other's beliefs as less than "sane". I still believe this is probably an internet smoke room keyboard operator...perhaps I am wrong. We shall see if the visits stop after the election is history.
Lots of parallels between the BHO rise and Hitler's ascension. OH wait,....that couldn't happen here could it? Our social fabric would not allow that as we drift towards the "european" model, eh? As we become less what we are, and more like "they" were, what is it we shall do? The skepticism of sheep is to be expected....they blindly follow the path of least resistance to the point where the teeth of tyranny rip them apart. The lie told forcefully, often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth for the faint of heart and the feeble minded....and we are surrounded by that it in our fellow citizens it seems. History's lessons forgotten are repeated...Armenia, Germany, Cambodia.....
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This is also a "firearm-related" forum not a soap box for your next "stone" re: gay marriage,....
That was just one example. There are many others - especially after 9/11. If you are so high on rights as you claim, you should be willing to discuss that, too.
I'm curious: Is that really a realistic szenario for you guys? Your political system - corrupt as it may be like many others - turning so bad, that you need to march to DC to overthrow it? How many % chance it will be necessary in the next 50 years? I would imagine 0%, but then again I#m just a sheep and all that...
You seem to be very fond of statistics -- I hope you know enough about statistics and how they can be altered -- where do you get those .000001 % ?
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That was just one example. There are many others - especially after 9/11. If you are so high on rights as you claim, you should be willing to discuss that, too.
I'm curious: Is that really a realistic szenario for you guys? Your political system - corrupt as it may be like many others - turning so bad, that you need to march to DC to overthrow it? How many % chance it will be necessary in the next 50 years? I would imagine 0%, but then again I#m just a sheep and all that...
You seem to be very fond of statistics -- I hope you know enough about statistics and how they can be altered -- where do you get those .000001 % ?
No, you do not get to change the subject or drive the agenda. This is a gun forum specifically interested in the Second Amendment, we will be happy to discuss the specifics of our beliefs in and our reasons for support of RTKBA.
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Your reply obviously hits to the heart that oldeurope takes isolated instances and attempts to frame them as the norm. Typical liberal/socialist tactic.....
... I still believe this is probably an internet smoke room keyboard operator...perhaps I am wrong. We shall see if the visits stop after the election is history.
Lots of parallels between the BHO rise and Hitler's ascension. ...
...The lie told forcefully, often enough, and long enough, becomes the truth ....
History's lessons forgotten are repeated...Armenia, Germany, Cambodia.....
What's your problem with liberalism? You do want a liberal law for guns. But liberalism is bad when it cross your interests?
As I said, don't be paranoid. Do you really think anyone with brains would assume, that he could turn a single person in here to vote for Obama? Thats ridicolous. An interesting question could be: Do guns promote paranoia with some people or does paranoia promote fondness of guns?
I will leave, whenever I can't gain more understanding or if I can't hope to induce understanding (and you are pushing me closer to that point ;-)
Obama and Hitler? You might want to see a doctor...
Hey, you stole that line from from Karl Rove's campaign tactics, didn't ya? ;-)
Believe me I'm not forgetting my history - maybe I learn different things from it.
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No, you do not get to change the subject or drive the agenda. This is a gun forum specifically interested in the Second Amendment, we will be happy to discuss the specifics of our beliefs in and our reasons for support of RTKBA.
Strange, I thought I was doing exactly that...
Is the sole use of this forum to give yourself reassuring pads on the back?
Anyone else up to provide me with answers?
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Strange, I thought I was doing exactly that...
Is the sole use of this forum to give yourself reassuring pads on the back?
Anyone else up to provide me with answers?
No, you are not "doing exactly that". You are trying to bring liberalism, paranoia, and various other rights into the conversation.
No, we do not exist to "pat ourselves on the back", if you took the time to read through the history of posts here you will see disagreement and discussion on guns, the 2A, when to shoot, etc.
Lastly, please refrain from the condescending remarks. They only prove the point that you are here to stir things up with emotion rather than discuss facts.
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Another quote by old europe; "if I can't hope to induce understanding (and you are pushing me closer to that point ;-)"
You will induce nothing but a cerebral irritation that requires an Excedrin.
I'll use a liberal website to give you and your european friends some info regarding number of guns in the US (which is approximate because we like keeping some things FROM the gov't), and Euro countries gun numbers.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0709-03.htm
This data comes from your friends at the United Nations. Therefore you can't dispute it. ::)
I think the Euro data is encouraging, go Finland!
There is a yellow brick road you can take whenever you like. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. You'll enjoy Oz when you get there, be sure to sing John Lennon's Imagine along the way.
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To oldeurope.....
I believe that the discussions being held in this forum represent many differing views. I also believe that the unfortunate accident that befell that young boy and his family is beyond my understanding. I cannot fathom the heartache and pain being felt by them and in no way would I take it as a reason to question their motives in allowing the boy to fire that weapon. Personally, I believe (probably an unpopular view) that automatic weapons should be left in the hands of the military or LE but I don’t condemn the views of people that disagree with me. I believe that we all have rights under the Constitution that are written for the protection of the populace and should be adhered too. Unfortunately, not everyone in this country follows those laws and our founding fathers understood that.
As a group, legal gun owners are some of the most law-abiding citizens in the land. To break the laws that are in force in this country will most definitely affect our right to own a firearm and pursue a hobby or way of life that developed over a lifetime. It’s only in the last thirty years or so, with the maturation of those free-loving folks of the sixties that we find the unrest from the left. They were given free reign to voice their opinions then under the First Amendment and they should respect, under the same Constitution, our right to the Second!
I just want to be left alone, to enjoy what freedoms I have left and to live a life unencumbered by government and all of its shortcomings. I enjoy shooting sports, fishing and many other outdoor activities and don’t ask for handouts from anyone. I am not paranoid but believe that protection of my home and family is a right that I will never give up and to suggest otherwise is purely a lack of knowledge of our history as a nation. I’ve lost faith in mans ability to function as a society and if someone has just broken into my home and stuck a gun in my face, I seriously doubt they will take the time to ask how I voted this morning before they pull the trigger!
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Not boring at all. Thanks for this post.
Watch out here comes a new "rock", but it's not meant as a provocation, honestly. It's something I would like to exchange thoughts on. Even in the US you will have to agree, certain rights are controlled. Let's look at the issue of gay marriage. In many places they don't have the right to have equal rights -- to be created equal. I do have a feeling though, that not 5% of the people who fight passionately for 2nd A. would stir a finger to help to promote gay marriage. From an outside perspective, you develop a scepticism - is it really about rights and freedom or is a great deal of the original spirit perverted by "guncraziness" excuse my language, but I've seen people who I have difficulty to describe differently - obviously you are not one of them.
In order to understand my response you need to be familiar with 3 documents. The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States and the King James Bible.
The Declaration of Independence refers to "God given unalienable rights", The Bible specifically condemns homosexuality, The Constitution strictly limits the powers of the federal government, and in article 10 of the bill of rights specifies that "All powers not SPECIFICALLY granted to the federal government" are reserved to the States. No where in the Constitution will you find reference to allowing what is generally perceived as perversion. While the first amendment says that Government will make no laws in respect to religion it is important to note that the core beliefs of the Founding Fathers were based on a Judeo - Christian moral code, not a Roman one, therefore it is perfectly consistent for strongly pro Constitutionalist gun owners to be opposed to "gay marriage" (unless they belong to www.pinkpistols.com) As for some sort of contractual "Civil union" I have no problem with that at all, as a divorced guy I see no reason that homosexuals of either gender should be deprived of the experiance of alimony, joint property divisions etc.
In short "gay marriage is NOT a right. Rights in America are NOT limited, Free speech / Free press for example, in Theory you are not allowed to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. However, the "Freedom carries with it the unspoken responsibility to be truthful, and to distinguish "Fact" from "opinion" this is not done as witness the blatant pro Obama slant of the main stream media in our current election cycle. Instead it has been expanded as "Freedom of Expression" (a phrase found nowhere in the Constitution) to allow pornography and desecration of national symbols
As for "guncraziness" the Second Amendment is what makes OUR Constitution different from those of the old USSR or Nazi Germany, WE have the right, and the power to ENFORCE our Constitutional limits on a potentially overstepping Government.
Without the ultimate check of an armed population the rest of the Constitution is just paper.
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I'm going to jump in here ONCE and then ignore this thread.
The only paranoia that most of us "gun folk" feel is resultant from the constant assault on our rights within our constitution, which we believe to be the greatest statement of individual rights in the world. Almost ANY american citizen will fight for first amendment rights (oldeurope is enjoying that right here), but when certain parties or groups decide to parse the constitution and attack our second amendment rights based on a minority interpretation of the constitution, we react in a defensive manner, as we all should any time ANY constitutional right is attacked. Of course, this vigilance and dedication to our rights is easily classified through smug comments as "paranoia" or "whacko tendencies". That is a much easier approach for folks of a different outlook to use instead of arguing with facts or logic, neither of which seem to fit their purpose.
Condescension and ridicule are the favored conversational tactics by those who either have no legitimate argument, have no propensity to understand a differing viewpoint, or simply do not understand the value of our constitutional rights and the ease with which they can be compromised.
It's like my sister-in-law...there's no convincing them, so unless you enjoy arguing, you're just wasting precious breath and time. oldeurope does not appear to be seeking knowlege or understanding, but more just looking for a debate. The exchange of ideas and debate is all well and good but inevitably the less conservative party reverts to condescension, which amounts to polite namecalling. It's at that point that that he's just being a pain in the ass.
I'm going to go find a range report!
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Oldeurope,
We all here feel for the loss of anyone, especially a child, to any accident...be it playground, traffic, electrical outlets, swimming pools or 5 gallon bucket accidents that take the lives of children. However, we also think before we react by demanding or proposing laws to outlaw playgrounds, automobiles, electrical outlets, swimming pools or 5 gallon buckets. (more children are are killed each year by these than are accidentally killed by firearms).
The accidental death of a child by a firearm is no more tragic than by any other means.
Please watch this video and then you feel. Feel what may have happened repeatedly to the woman referenced in this video had she not had a firearm to protect herself.
Feel the helplessness she would have felt and the violation she would have suffered again were she forbidden to posses a firearm as you seem to suggest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg
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Hey Jay, I happen to ENJOY sarcastically ridiculing ideas I find offensive, unfounded or just plain wrong. ;D
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Our friend from Germany (oldEurope) is obviously interested in learning more about the so called US gun culture. Previous posts on this thread is split from another thread to keep it on topic.
I will add my 2 cents as soon as time allows. :D
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The troll is back!
Know your history, before you start condemning it. The Bill of Rights was put into place to insure our freedoms.
Can we all ignore this guy now and move on with our lives.
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I'm going to jump in here ONCE and then ignore this thread.
Now there is a comment of the day award nominee.
And oh yeah, +1
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........................Obama and Hitler? You might want to see a doctor...
Hey, you stole that line from from Karl Rove's campaign tactics, didn't ya? ;-)
Believe me I'm not forgetting my history - maybe I learn different things from it.
Not equal. Parallels. The parallels are there for the movements. Thugs at polling places.....surely not (sarcasm, by the way).
The Karl Rove "dis" tends to indicate you are less european then you indicate. Since yo mentioned Karl Rove, what were his tactics you are referring to?
Maybe you received a different version of history. East Block or West Block?
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Not boring at all. Thanks for this post.
Watch out here comes a new "rock", but it's not meant as a provocation, honestly. It's something I would like to exchange thoughts on. Even in the US you will have to agree, certain rights are controlled. Let's look at the issue of gay marriage. In many places they don't have the right to have equal rights -- to be created equal. I do have a feeling though, that not 5% of the people who fight passionately for 2nd A. would stir a finger to help to promote gay marriage. From an outside perspective, you develop a scepticism - is it really about rights and freedom or is a great deal of the original spirit perverted by "guncraziness" excuse my language, but I've seen people who I have difficulty to describe differently - obviously you are not one of them.
Without an anecdote it would be hard to comment on your specific experience and frame of reference. To judge an entire culture by a few nuts would be poor policy, but in some cases understandable.
Controlled rights? Good question. Back to new world thought. The consitution and its Bill of Rights limits the powers of Government not the individuals from which it derives its power. That Government then makes laws. It is a balance of powers. You mentioned gay marriage. This would be a red herring. I, as a heterosexual male, have the exact same rights as a homosexual male. I cannot marry another man. Likewise, neither can our hypothetical homosexual male. These rights are equal under the law. A better example of controlled rights would be the often used example, at least here in the evil USA, of free speech (Amendment 1) and yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.
Here's another way of looking at the situation: Rights do not require the destruction of another person or their rights. As a Liberatarian minded person this is forefront in my mind daily with the present political situation. I own and control me. The government does not. I can choose to flail my arms randomly in any direction I please. However, the minute my flailing arms violate another person's space or cause bodily harm there has to be recourse to the harmed individual. This is where Government enters the situation. Government sets parameters and penalties when said parameters are violated. Here is the good part. This Government is made up of the very individuals it regulates. Call it full circle or balace of powers or what ever the case may be. I choose to call it the American Ideal.
Back to the Old World vs. the New World. The USA is a rather young country. One of the major factors it its metoric rise to sole superpower is the fact that the USA is the freest contry on the planet. When we see the freedoms that allow us to be the best person we can be being eroded away, we balk. The recent hiccups we have had are a result of too many people willing to subjegate freedom with control.
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old europe, let me give you a historic and verifiable perspective of guns from Asia and Europe, First Asia, Mao said "all political power comes from the barrel of a gun" in America the power resides with "We the People" ergo, the people have more right to arms than Government. Lenin, in his collected works, (think it's vol. 2 but not sure) writes that "the nation that allows itself to be disarmed ,deserves the slavery which will soon follow. That is the root progressive view of civilian gun ownership .
As for wanting to see a doctor for comparing Obama to Hitler, lets see, tailors message to audiance, blames "The Rich" for all the worlds problems, connection to violent radicals, use of every form of election fraud available including thugs at polling places, proposes "Civilian "National Security Force", Messianic image portrayed in media, enraptures crowds of supporters at mass rallies with his speeches, Obama has even been on the cover of Time magazine, JUST LIKE HITLER.
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old europe, let me give you a historic and verifiable perspective of guns from Asia and Europe, First Asia, Mao said "all political power comes from the barrel of a gun" in America the power resides with "We the People" ergo, the people have more right to arms than Government. Lenin, in his collected works, (think it's vol. 2 but not sure) writes that "the nation that allows itself to be disarmed ,deserves the slavery which will soon follow. That is the root progressive view of civilian gun ownership .
As for wanting to see a doctor for comparing Obama to Hitler, lets see, tailors message to audiance, blames "The Rich" for all the worlds problems, connection to violent radicals, use of every form of election fraud available including thugs at polling places, proposes "Civilian "National Security Force", Messianic image portrayed in media, enraptures crowds of supporters at mass rallies with his speeches, Obama has even been on the cover of Time magazine, JUST LIKE HITLER.
This is really a bit drastic, far-fetched and/or not true - or sadly true for allmost any politician (exept Warren Beatty in that one movie, whose title I can't remember just now).
Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.
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Not equal. Parallels. The parallels are there for the movements. Thugs at polling places.....surely not (sarcasm, by the way).
The Karl Rove "dis" tends to indicate you are less european then you indicate. Since yo mentioned Karl Rove, what were his tactics you are referring to?
Maybe you received a different version of history. East Block or West Block?
Oh, come on. Not again... You are NOT Sherlock Holmes and I am NOT American -- which I wouldn't mind at all by the way. Otherwise I wouldn't have deliberately chosen to live with you for a year. If you've read my posts like Sherlock Holmes, you could tell I'm from Germany - I dropped a hint.
The fact that I know much more about the US then you do about Europe, could lead me to say you're ignorant, but I don't. It is nothing for me to take pride in. Let's face it, the US is/has been much more important for Germany than the other way around. If I was in your place I probably wouldn't know much about Europe.
Oh, West Germany. But thanks for indicating I have been brainwashed by some socialist/communist regime ;-) I'm aware, that US history books are the only ones telling the truth and are the only ones authorized true directly by our creator ;-)
Karl Rove has perfected hammering away on a lie/or bent truth to discredit political opponents or even start a war
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Without an anecdote it would be hard to comment on your specific experience and frame of reference. To judge an entire culture by a few nuts would be poor policy, but in some cases understandable.
Controlled rights? Good question. ...
Here's another way of looking at the situation: Rights do not require the destruction of another person or their rights....
Back to the Old World vs. the New World....
I have a bad feeling that they aren't just a few. But I wouldn't judge your culture by them anyhow - if you havn't noticed yet, I do have a lot of respect for America, it's ideals etc - With some things I have a hard time, though. And I'm interested if there could be a way/system to preserve the good parts of a population with guns, getting rid of the bad parts.
I was talking about the "right" to marry the person you love and even get the benefits / and yes also the obligations that come with that. They wouldn't harm anybody, would they? Not more than your flailing arms (anecdote: I first read it as arms as in guns - funny picture)
I'm not so sure, you are the freest country in the world. And success does not only come by freedoms. If it wasn't for the US (lets suppose for a moment they wouldnt have existed) my countries "success" could have really messed the world up badly. There are other examples: the romans, ghengis khan, alexander...
I hope though you are right with the hiccups - but I#m not so sure on that. The importance of the US has dropped dramatically for example to the advantage of china etc.
We'll see
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This is really a bit drastic, far-fetched and/or not true - or sadly true for allmost any politician (exept Warren Beatty in that one movie, whose title I can't remember just now).
Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.
Please check this thread, especially the video iit starts with.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3881.0
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Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.
Obama hasn't been in office yet to be able to do anything.. but hang on... it's comin'.
Every statement that is listed.. he has leaned toward in all of his speeches and voting records.
A dark and dreary morning here in Kansas for a dark and dreary election.
I do congratulate the democrats though! They have successfully voted in the most inexperienced, most liberal candidate with one of the worst histories I have ever seen without really even breaking a sweat.
His reputation and short 'do barely nothing' history as a Senator was filled with personal Liberal party agenda. There was no
"for the people"..and I doubt he and his American hating wife will be any different when they move on up to the Big House. It's like trusting a fox in the hen house. You can't.
*Taking a deep breath* ....... Now... on to hope and change. I hope he miraculously changes his stances to make American better instead of destroy it... but most of us know how that is going to go. :-\
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Obama hasn't been in office yet to be able to do anything.. but hang on... it's comin'.
Every statement that is listed.. he has leaned toward in all of his speeches and voting records.
Just for Info:
Everything I've listed took place, BEFORE Hitler was in Office
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This is really a bit drastic, far-fetched and/or not true - or sadly true for allmost any politician (exept Warren Beatty in that one movie, whose title I can't remember just now).
Consider some of these:
Did Obama try to overthrow the government (with guns by the way).
Did he - let's say - burn down congress to come to power.
Hitler actually kept quite close to the rich except if they happend to be jewish, those were the ones he blamed. Did Obama put blame on any etnic group for anything?
Did Obama form an "SA" and used terror and force on a large scale to come to power?
Even though it disgust one - reading "Mein Kampf" for scholarly reasons could give you a new perspective.
I know comparisons with Hitler are a popular dead-beat argumentation, but that can get ridicolous.
The perspective I got was that his speaking may have "raised the masses" his writing put them to sleep, It's a good thing the Chancellor job worked out for him because otherwise he would have done no better as an author than he did as a painter. Yes, I know Mien Kampf made him a millionaire, but I GUARANTEE it was only because he had the power to make it required reading. He was no Steven Hunter, that's for sure.
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oldEurope,
I am the editor of DRTV and a second amendment absolutist. I am also a Norwegian with years of experience fighting for gun privileges both for my fellow Norwegians and now gun rights for my fellow Americans. More on the difference between privileges and rights later.
I still have to wait a couple of more years before I formally can call myself a US citizen, but for the record: The day I decided to live here permanently and for personal reasons (not political or financial), I took a personal oath of allegiance and it was easy to do. Reason being: My passion for individual rights and liberty and what it means for a free world.
I am also a NRA member and I signed on as a member while living in Europe. NRA is the last bastion and their objectives reach out to more than their primary membership. They have been an alert dog for the hidden agenda of the UN to establish a worldwide ban on civilian gun ownership.
I was "raised and educated" to become a social democrat in my younger years and turned conservative when I learned first hand that labor unions' and a liberal government's love of power established a disconnection with the people they served. This was also fueled by the fact that I got tired of increased taxes combined with collective privileges and how they opened up the borders for people who were looking more for welfare checks than a freedom of choice.
But I was also raised by a generation who lived through five years of Nazi occupancy and who rebuilt the country which included the reestablishment of a strong Home Guard and the importance of promoting "marksmanship throughout the population and thus prepare the population for National Defense". This is one of the reasons there are guns in every third household in Norway and why there is a so called strong gun culture in that country.
A gun culture is not founded by gun nuts - it is founded by an understanding of how the power of a government can be turned against "we the people". It is also funded by the fact that we all have a personal responsibility to protect our own lives. It is also funded by the fact that guns are used for hunting, recreational purposes and competition.
The big majority of the US gun culture is comprised of regular law abiding citizens from both sides of the political aisle. They are for the most part a silent group of citizens. They rarely get any media attention or get profiled in Hollywood movies. What's left when it comes to attention, is the exceptions who this silent majority distance themselves from.
When looking at the US from the outside (living in the US for a year is not enough), it takes a lot more to understand what this is all about.
US was founded by European immigrants who had experienced how kings and governments can turn against their own people. They understood by experience that freedom could not be taken for granted and that a constitution alone would not protect them from tyranny and suppression. The consequence was the Bill of Rights and emphasized the difference between privileges and God given rights.
Europeans in general have a lack of understanding what the Second Amendment is all about. They also have a lack of understanding what gun rights in general is all about. The combination of the "education" from Hollywood movies, liberal bias in the media and the European love for big government and control, makes it impossible for them to see through their own standards of thoughts when it comes to the US gun culture.
On the other hand, Americans don't understand the Europeans either, simply because there is not just one European culture. There is no Unites States of Europe, no European federal government besides the attempt of an European Union. We are talking about different countries, different languages and cultures. We are also talking about a wide range of different gun laws and privileges from countries with strict gun laws to countries with more liberal gun laws than in the state of California.
What both continents have in common are the same political solutions when it comes to solving the so called gun problem. When we have tragedies like Columbine (Colorado), Dunblane (Scotland), Erfurt (Germany), we experience the same attempt of a quick fix which only have an effect on the law abiding citizens. It does not solve the reasons behind such tragedies.
Since the gun laws in Europe represent a privilege, they can be taken away almost overnight. And here comes another commonality: Both continents have criminals who don't follow the laws. Their rights (in their own mind) are untouched no matter what.
Most gun owners in Europe and also Australia understand the US gun culture. Many of them have experienced first hand how privileges have been taken away not because they represented a problem, but because of politician's eager to find a quick fix. The political quick fix represents cosmetic values, not practical solutions.
oldEurope, you may think you are representing Europe in your viewpoints, but you're not. You represent your personal viewpoints and you have the right to do so.
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Thanks Marshall, that's a perspective I have never heard in such depth. Sometimes it takes a view from "afar" to see the reality that we become accustomed to.
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Well spoken Marshall and thanks for your insights.
Ocin
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Marshal,
You just brought back sooooooooooo many memories. As I read I could "hear" my grandparents and other relatives talking about why they came over. Not all the same as you, but they came for reasons, and they came 100%. They talked about the "old country," but not much. They always talked about how good this Country was for them. They also were some of the strongest community supporters there ever were.
Thank you for the post and for reflecting the type of imigration this Nation was built WITH!
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Marshall,
That speech qualifies your citizenship more than any oath you will take in the future. I venture to guess that most folks born in this country could not have said it so eloquently.
Tusen takk,
Timothy
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Just for Info:
Everything I've listed took place, BEFORE Hitler was in Office
Dear oldeurope!
This sentiment is attributed to Flavius Vegetius Renatus, who wrote in the "De re militari" (390 B.C.E.): "Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem". (Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know know to be superior in battle.)
Here is the quote and the brief reminder for those who think otherwise.
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow
the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all
conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms
have prepared their own downfall by so doing."
Adolph Hitler
Perpetrator Government: Ottoman Turkey
Date: 1915-17
Targets: Christian Armenians
Murdered (est.): 1.5 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1866-1911
Source Documents: Article 166, Penal Code
Perpetrator Government: Soviet Union
Date: 1929-53
Targets: Christians, Peasants
Murdered (est.): 36 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1929
Source Documents: Article 182, Penal Code
Perpetrator Government: Nazi Germany & occupied Europe
Date: 1933-45
Targets: Jews, Gypsies, Christians, Anti-Nazis
Murdered (est.): 13 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 4/12/1928-3/18/1938
Source Documents: Law on Firearms & Ammunition; Weapons Law
Perpetrator Government: China
Date: 1949-52, 1966-76
Targets: Christians, Anti-Communists, Pro-Reformers
Murdered (est.): 60 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1935-10/22/1957
Source Documents: Articles 186-7, Penal Code; Article 9, Security Law
Perpetrator Government: Uganda
Date: 1971-79
Targets: Christian Political Rivals
Murdered (est.): 600,000
Date of Gun Control Law: 1955-1970
Source Documents: Firearms Ordinance; Firearms Act
Perpetrator Government: Cambodia
Date: 1975-79
Targets: Educated Persons
Murdered (est.): 3 million
Date of Gun Control Law: 1956
Source Documents: Articles 322-8; Penal Code
Perpetrator Government: Rwanda
Date: 1990-94
Targets: Christian Tutsi
Murdered (est.): 500,000
Date of Gun Control Law: 1964
Source Documents: Law on the Control of Firearms
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Very well said Marshall.
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We will have here in the states a gun control law that will or will not be as tough as the one in 94. there are speculations of this happening to us. alot of us like to own,collect,go to gunshows and see the history of the collectables firearms that have been made before our time. We who are collectors of rare firearms do shoot the ones we want to keep in the generations of our families to come and pass them on when the GOOD LORD calls us to his home. collecting rare firearms to me who is disabled is a hobby of mine. I have my late grandfathers Nazi marked Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol that he found on a dead german officer and had willed it to me when he passed on. It even has the original ammo in the magazines. I had to fill out government firearm forms at the dealer and get insured along with my other firearms and get it registered according to city ordanaces prescribe. So that is what is in it for me. I even got the duty belt along with the gun and holster. So there you have it in a words from me . And in conclusion on this statement from the late Charelston Heston,,,,,,,,,,FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS......... And from me,,,,,,,,,, MAYBE NOT!!!!!! rich642z,UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS.ONE NATION,UNDER GOD,,,,,,, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. AMEN GO IN PEACE,,,,,SERVE THE LORD.
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US was founded by European immigrants who had experienced how kings and governments can turn against their own people. They understood by experience that freedom could not be taken for granted and that a constitution alone would not protect them from tyranny and suppression. The consequence was the Bill of Rights and emphasized the difference between privileges and God given rights.
I appreciate you pointing out the fact that we have God given rights. The constitution doesn't gives us rights it is there to enforce them. We need to hold our congress critters and our other government employees collective feet to the fire.
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I think Marshal has put this into a perspective that oldeurope will best understand, especially when pointing out the differance between our "Rights" and their "privileges". As he said, Europeans don't understand Americans, nor do Americans understand Europeans. Fortunately for us we have Marshal , who is an American from Europe and understands both.
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Thanks a lot you guys. I think we are finally talking. This is very interesting for me - honestly.
to make one point clear - I never claimed to understand the US fully and I agree a year could not be enough for that - that's part of why I'm "palling around" with you guys here ;-)
But for the point of understanding - being from differnt continents can make it harder, but that is also true for people from one US-Region to another - even with your next door neighbor can be hard - it's important to try.
In some posts I read really worried statements of what the US will come to now with the new president.
I really wonder, how many of you are actually convinced, that in your lifetime, you will have to and will use your gun to save America from the government. How likely in %.
I#m not asking that to say later: "well that little, then don't bother" I understand the importance for you to be sure to be able to, however unlikely that may be. Or to ensure, that it stays unlikely.
I'm honest, I probably won't be able to shake off the impression, that you are overreacting. But I'd find that really interesting, to see how badly you feel represented:
Likeliness in the next 10 years: x %
Likeliness in the next 20 years: x %
Likeliness in the next 30 years: x %
Likeliness in the next 40 years: x %
Thanks.
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But for the point of understanding - being from differnt continents can make it harder, but that is also true for people from one US-Region to another - even with your next door neighbor can be hard - it's important to try.
If you study the gun laws in both continents, you will learn that the main difference between US and Europe is related to self defense.
European gun laws in general give individuals a privilege to purchase firearms for hunting and sports shooting. The same laws are also heavy regulated.
Self defense is the part that is so hard to accept and understand among Europeans and as I posted earlier, the false impression they get through media and Hollywood brings fuel to that fire.
Have in mind that there are over 20,000 laws and regulations in the US (federal, state and local) defining what law abiding citizens can do and not do under the Second Amendment !
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/
On another note: Almost daily, I receive requests from Europeans wanting to buy a gun either through export or by purchasing one while visiting the US.
I have to break the news telling them that export might be a solution if an import and export license can be provided, but for a foreign tourist visiting US to purchase a gun and personally bring it home is a federal crime both for buyer and seller. These requests prove that there are a lot of misunderstandings about gun laws in the US.
Again, the reason gun crimes exist and in both continents is that criminals don't respect gun laws or any other law for that matter. To solve this problem, US politicians are doing their "best" to keep adding to the 20,000 plus and they achieve nothing.
Banning firearms mean that criminals and those representing government will be the only ones with either an illegal or legal access to firearms. The law abiding citizens last resource to self defense will be taken away.
How the Second Amendment is defined in the light of an individual right has been discussed for decades and will still be open to discussion even after the Supreme established it as an individual right.
OldEurope, I recommend that you listen to our coverage of the DC v Heller arguments back in March and the ruling back in June. It will give you some more insight and a better understanding why gun owners in the US are fighting hard not to lose any rights related to gun ownership:
The hearing: http://www.downrange.tv/rkba/dc-v-heller.htm
Commentaries after the hearing: http://www.downrange.tv/rkba/dc-v-heller2.htm
Commentaries after the ruling: http://www.downrange.tv/rkba/index.htm
Thanks for keeping an open mind and willingness to understand this better.
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Thanks a lot you guys. I think we are finally talking. This is very interesting for me - honestly.
to make one point clear - I never claimed to understand the US fully and I agree a year could not be enough for that - that's part of why I'm "palling around" with you guys here ;-)
But for the point of understanding - being from differnt continents can make it harder, but that is also true for people from one US-Region to another - even with your next door neighbor can be hard - it's important to try.
In some posts I read really worried statements of what the US will come to now with the new president.
I really wonder, how many of you are actually convinced, that in your lifetime, you will have to and will use your gun to save America from the government. How likely in %.
I#m not asking that to say later: "well that little, then don't bother" I understand the importance for you to be sure to be able to, however unlikely that may be. Or to ensure, that it stays unlikely.
I'm honest, I probably won't be able to shake off the impression, that you are overreacting. But I'd find that really interesting, to see how badly you feel represented:
Likeliness in the next 10 years: x %
Likeliness in the next 20 years: x %
Likeliness in the next 30 years: x %
Likeliness in the next 40 years: x %
Thanks.
You certainly have THAT right, when a "Yankee" from Maine talks with a "Cajun" from Louisiana, they need an interpreter ;D
The initial hostility toward oldeurope is probably do to a misunderstanding of his initial posts leading to the assumption that he was trying to stir up conflict.
The democratic party in the US, (including the predecessors of the party, all the way back to Thomas Jefferson) Have been practicing economic plans that are consistently 30 -50 years out of date if they were ever practical, for example they caused the US Civil war to retain a slave economy that was already being made impractical by the advent of "Farm machinery" at a time when Northern factories were so desperate for labor that they were hiring children. The democrats have also for the same 232 years been anti military anti national defense, the ONLY military action that the Dem's supported was WWII, and not until after the USSR was invaded.
With the growing divergence between the goals of conservatives and liberals, I would put the likelyhood of armed internal conflict at around 75%, that will of course be subject to how closely Obama follows his Marxist training.
One thing you may not have considered is that all those 20,000 gun laws that Marshal mentioned are a waste of paper, we have laws against murder, rape, robbery, assault, and negligence, how do you make them "more illegal" ? Especially when criminals, by definition, have no regard for the law and do as they please regrdless.
As some one else said "Why is it that after every mass shooting the govt and liberals try to take guns away from the people who DIDN'T do it ?"
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Hi , I'm back- couldn't resist. Everyone has different ideas. It's not the likelihood of needing to fight our government that is on our minds so much...much more than that is the support and protection of our freedom. In an attempt to APPEAR that they are doing something important or constructive (ESPECIALLY with regard to guns) the government constantly passes regulations and laws that ONLY affect law-abiding gun owners, but not criminals. These attempts accomplish nothing except to erode our freedom. The liklihood of that happening is 100%- it happens CONSTANTLY. THAT is the biggest concern of gun owners.
If we stay strong and our freedoms remain intact it is much less likely that the first scenario will occur.
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Hi , I'm back- couldn't resist. Everyone has different ideas. It's not the likelihood of needing to fight our government that is on our minds so much...much more than that is the support and protection of our freedom. In an attempt to APPEAR that they are doing something important or constructive (ESPECIALLY with regard to guns) the government constantly passes regulations and laws that ONLY affect law-abiding gun owners, but not criminals. These attempts accomplish nothing except to erode our freedom. The liklihood of that happening is 100%- it happens CONSTANTLY. THAT is the biggest concern of gun owners.
If we stay strong and our freedoms remain intact it is much less likely that the first scenario will occur.
Good point, Jay.
Actually, THE POINT here.
Basically, this point of view can be applied to most, if not all laws. People just choose guns because of the emotional issues related.
Laws are only followed by honest people.
Examples?
Breaking and entering is against the law.....but it happens.
Speeding is against the law................but it happens.
Writing bad checks, murder, rape, molestation............well...you get the picture (I hope).
Good people obey the laws (laws that are unnecessary if everyone were honest) that criminals pay no heed to.