The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Fatman on November 07, 2008, 06:37:59 PM
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Fears of a Dem crackdown lead to boom in gun sales
By DENA POTTER Dena Potter 31 mins ago
MIDLOTHIAN, Va. – When 10-year-old Austin Smith heard Barack Obama had been elected president, he had one question: Does this mean I won't get a new gun for Christmas?
That brought his mother, the camouflage-clad Rachel Smith, to Bob Moates Sports Shop on Thursday, where she was picking out that special 20-gauge shotgun — one of at least five weapons she plans to buy before Obama takes office in January.
Like Smith, gun enthusiasts nationwide are stocking up on firearms out of fears that the combination of an Obama administration and a Democrat-dominated Congress will result in tough new gun laws.
"I think they're going to really try to crack down on guns and make it harder for people to try to purchase them," said Smith, 32, who taught all five of her children — ages 4 to 10 — to shoot because the family relies on game for food.
Last month, as an Obama win looked increasingly inevitable, there were more than 108,000 more background checks for gun purchases than in October 2007, a 15 percent increase. And they were up about 8 percent for the year as of Oct. 26, according to the FBI.
No data was available for gun purchases this week, but gun shops from suburban Virginia to the Rockies report record sales since Tuesday's election.
"They're scared to death of losing their rights," said David Hancock, manager of Bob Moates, where sales have nearly doubled in the past week and are up 15 percent for the year. On Election Day, salespeople were called in on their day off because of the crowd.
Obama has said he respects Americans' Second Amendment right to bear arms, but that he favors "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault and concealed weapons.
As a U.S. Senator, Obama voted to leave gun-makers and dealers open to lawsuits; and as an Illinois state legislator, he supported a ban on semiautomatic weapons and tighter restrictions on all firearms.
During an October appearance in Ohio, Obama sought to reassure gun owners. "I will not take your shotgun away," he said. "I will not take your rifle away. I won't take your handgun away."
Gun advocates take some solace in the current makeup of the U.S. Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 this summer to strike down the District of Columbia's 32-year ban on handguns. For now, gun rights supporters hold a narrow edge on the court, but Obama could appoint justices who would swing it the other way.
Franklin Gun Shop outside Nashville, Tenn., sold more than 70 guns on Tuesday, making it the biggest sales day since the shop opened eight years ago. Guns & Gear in Cheyenne, Wyo., also set a one-day sales record on Tuesday, only to break that mark on Wednesday.
Stewart Wallin, owner of Get Some Guns in the Salt Lake City suburb of Murray, Utah, said he sold nine assault weapons the day after Obama was elected. That same day, the gun store Cheaper Than Dirt! in Fort Worth, Texas, sold $101,000 worth of merchandise, shattering its single-day sales record, store owner DeWayne Irwin said.
One Georgia gun shop advertised an "Obama sale" on an outdoor sign, but the owner took it down after people complained that the shop appeared to be issuing a call to violence against the country's first black leader.
The president of a Montana gun manufacturer stepped down last month after word that he supported Obama led to calls for a boycott of the company.
While Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association, attributes some of the sales boom to the tanking economy, he thinks the Democratic sweep is the top reason why guns are suddenly a hot commodity.
"I don't think he'll be able to stand up to that anti-Second Amendment wing of the Democratic party that's just been spoiling for chance to ban America's guns," LaPierre said of Obama.
During the campaign, the NRA warned that Obama would be the "most antigun president in American history." And while Vice President-elect Joe Biden owns shotguns, he has supported a ban on assault weapons and has said private sellers at gun shows should be required to perform background checks.
But Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor who has written a book about the gun debate, said new firearms regulations will be a low priority for an Obama administration and Democratic Congress facing a global economic crisis and two wars.
"Maybe the gun-show loophole will be closed, but not much else," he said in an e-mail. "I'd be surprised, for example, if Congress enacted a new assault gun ban."
Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said his organization will continue to press for what he calls "sensible" restrictions — background checks at gun shows, a ban on military-style assault weapons and cracking down on illegal gun trade. He believes he has the backing of the new administration on those issues, but any fears of a broader crackdown are unfounded.
"The one thing that they agree strongly with us on is that it's too easy for dangerous people to get guns in this country," Helmke said. "I guess if you're a dangerous person you might want to run out there and buy some more, but otherwise you should be OK."
OK, what complete AR should I get? Or what lower? Reliability and cost are a factor. So is the fact that contrary to the antis idea of the role of an AR, it will be going deer hunting. I like the fact that I can change the upper for different game, so I really don't need to go buying all kinds of rifles in different calibers.
Oh, and Helmke? The dems mascot suits him juuust fine.
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I'd listen to last week's PodCast and buy accordingly.
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1. LMT
2. S&W M&P
3. Rock River
4. Stag
5. Bushmaster
I have Bushmasters due to pricing. If price is no object...JP Enterprises.
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I have a Rock River and love it.
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I'm a Dpms fan, but give no cold shoulder to:
1) colt
2) bushmaster
3) olympic arms
4) armalite
5) rock river
6) S&W
7) Les Baer
8) Lmt
9) remington
10) Stag arms, who makes most of the uppers and lowers.
And there are many more, but all of the above I have owned, or shot, and know people who own them, and they are happy.
Dpms, and RRA, have the best pricing in my area, Oly arms a close 2nd, and they have a lifetime warranty.
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Thanks guys.
After checking out DPMS and other sites linked on MB site and listening to last week's podcast I now know why I've always stuck to pistols. Much less complicated. Load, point, blam! Smooth hole in target.
7.62/.308 lowers cannot be interchanged with 5.56/.223 uppers and vice versa. I did not know that. I knew 5.56 was not the same as .223, I did not know 7.62 NATO is not the same as .308 win. Apparently it is, and the DPMS site is messing me up by having two models chambered in 7.62 NATO mixed in with rifles they say are chambered in .308 win. Load, point, blam! Jagged, ragged 'sploded-gun shrapnel hole in Fatman! lol
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5.56 gives you lots of options when it comes to ammo. Commercial .223 runs great and 5.56 runs great. 5.56 would be handy if there is the ability to pick up military or surplus ammo, but you can't run the 5.56 through the .223 without danger of ... danger. Then you get into the whole debate of the 5.56 being a "heavy duty" action. Being an old farmer I believe in over engineering whenever possible.
Wish I knew as much about .308/7.62 ???
I have a DPMS A2 Classic. I want to get a flat top carbine as described by MB, another upper in .223 or 5.56. I also want at least one complete .30 caliber.
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So exactly what is the difference in .308 and 7.62x51? Or is there?
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So exactly what is the difference in .308 and 7.62x51? Or is there?
Unless you reload, there is no diffrence.
if you reload 7.62 brass is thicker, mainly at the mouth.
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I forgot to mention Robinson Arms: www.robarm.com
This company makes some great rifles. Look at the XCR line.
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Well, half true TAB. There is a difference in case thickness, but all NATO and commercial .308 are otherwise the same except for pressures.
Now, the important part. From what I've read, the NATO chambers can be longer and that meets milspec. The heavier case prevents problems here. If you check your NATO chamber with a .308 field gauge, and it swallows it, that NATO rifle cannot safely shoot the thinner commercial .308 and you must check it with a NATO no-go gauge and field gauge to see if it is still ok for NATO ammo. If it fails the field gauge, it's a wall-hanger.
Essentially, all in spec .308 chambers can shoot NATO, all in spec NATO may be able to shoot .308
http://armedcanadian.blogspot.com/2007/11/shooting-308-out-of-762-nato-chambers.html (http://armedcanadian.blogspot.com/2007/11/shooting-308-out-of-762-nato-chambers.html)
Crap. Now you've got me thinking on .223 and 5.56 chamberings, and I gotta go to sleep. Grrr.
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If I understand the last few posts, you either buy and shoot .308 or you buy and shoot 7.62, but you do not interchange. Correct?
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Excellent Fatman. I learn something every day...
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If I understand the last few posts, you either buy and shoot .308 or you buy and shoot 7.62, but you do not interchange. Correct?
Everything I've seen or read indicates that the .308/7.62 issue is not significant - case sizes are not different, and pressures are not an issue either. The .223/5.56 issue is significant - case sizes can be as much as .01 off, and pressures can be very different. If you load, go with the ranges and powders indicated, don't try to over-load.
But then I never worry about it, as all my goodies are marked either 5.56 or 7.62 which is the safe way to go.
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I have to disagree, if your shooting and M1 or M14 derivative, although the action will take SAAMI spec .308, or 30-06 , meaning it won't blow up, but the extra pressure of SAAMI spec stuff, will bend and damage the op rod, and lead to failures.
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SAAMI specs are lower than military specs per American Rifleman Feb 08 issue. If it will shoot 7.62 it will shoot .308 just fine.
Now the .223 vs 5.56 thing was due to chamber size. Military being looser as many diff producers of ammo in many counties with less than perfect (or even good) quality control.
Pressure was (and is) not a problem.
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So now I'm back to 7.62 and shoot whatever I want; 5.56 and shoot either, but reload my own for accuracy; and .223 for real accurate .22 caliber.
Bigger problem is priority ... I've got $1,500 burning a hole and might not be able to say if I oops today there is always six months from now (got a couple "fun" guns in the rack that way already).
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I have to disagree, if your shooting and M1 or M14 derivative, although the action will take SAAMI spec .308, or 30-06 , meaning it won't blow up, but the extra pressure of SAAMI spec stuff, will bend and damage the op rod, and lead to failures.
7.62 and .308 are the same and ARE interchangeable, As Haz points out SAAMI specs are lower than Military. If you are shooting .30 - 06 in either caliber rifle you will wreck the rifle and hopefully hurt yourself because stupid should be painful. .30-06 while it uses the same BULLET is a completely different caliber that should not even FIT in a 7.62 or .308 chamber. No wonder you had a bent op rod ;D
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All right go ahead and shoot .308 anything in your M1a, it will bend the op rod, and that has to be fitted to the rifle, by someone, like ME. Go ahead and shoot SAAMI 30/06 in your garand, the same thing will happen, they were not meant for those pressures as issued, there are devices you can install to adjust the gas regulation, and make it ok, but as issued will take a beating.
Maybe the SAAMI ratings have been lowered, they definitely don't email me about things like that, to take into consideration things like M1a's or Garands, but when I bought both of mine, it was warned against, and my rifle coaches agreed.
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All right go ahead and shoot .308 anything in your M1a, it will bend the op rod, and that has to be fitted to the rifle, by someone, like ME. Go ahead and shoot SAAMI 30/06 in your garand, the same thing will happen, they were not meant for those pressures as issued, there are devices you can install to adjust the gas regulation, and make it ok, but as issued will take a beating.
Maybe the SAAMI ratings have been lowered, they definitely don't email me about things like that, to take into consideration things like M1a's or Garands, but when I bought both of mine, it was warned against, and my rifle coaches agreed.
I misunderstood, thought some one was trying to cram 06 into an M 1a ;D
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M25,
There are lots of stories about some guy had some rifle Ishy, Garand etc. blow up due to civilian ammo. Notice that it's always "I heard about".
I realize that you say it happened to your operating rod.
All I can say is before I bought my Ishy (Enfield rebuilt for 7.62) all I heard was "Don't shoot .308 from it". I searched the NET and saw lots of "I heard" stories. The only time I came upon facts was guys that have shot thousands of rounds of .308 from their Ishy, the NRA article mentioned above and one other article (not sure if I saved it) describing the process of proofing, how the Military goes to at least 2X the normal pressure to proof, how civilian ammo is well short of SAAMI standards and that Mil specs for ammo are higher (and 'looser') than SAAMI and that any rifle built for a Military caliber that can shoot a civilian equivalent can do so with no pressure problems. Head spacing may cause problems if the chamber is tight but that usually only happens when some one tries to shoot military ammo from a civilian gun. That was pointed out that it should not be done in older civilian guns.
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In my searches, I came across this:
http://www.7-62.com/index.asp (http://www.7-62.com/index.asp)
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Alright, I've decided. DPMS 7.62 Sportical. The bad news - it's on order. Missed one in stock by two weeks. Dealer already had two more on order, so it may not be 8 months, lol.
Shortish barrel but it's a solid, no frills platform.
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Remington in .243
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DPMS makes the Rem AR hunters, I believe. DPMS says their .308 platform is the base for .308/ 300 SAUM/ .243/ .260/ .338 Federal/ 6.5 Creedmoor. So I'd have future options, I'm assuming. I used 'assume', so someone let me know if I'm an ass for doing so. ;D
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If the 7.62mm Sportical has an extruded upper like the 5.56mm does I would look for something else. Extrusions may be okay, but I like forgings better than something that's squished out as if by a Play-Doh Fun Factory. Forging compacts and aligns the molecules in the metal making it stronger and it's a harder alloy to start with.
The best information I have on 7.62mm vs. .308 Winchester says the ammo is the same externally but the mil-spec brass is thicker. That reduces the case capacity and raises the pressure a lot higher than SAAMI spec .308. The mil-spec chambers are longer and looser to accomodate more fouling build-up or to keep hot brass from swelling up and sticking in the chamber during (and after) full-auto fire. Thinner .308 brass MAY stretch excessively in 7.62 chambers. 7.62mm will have higher than SAMMI spec pressures in .308 chambers. The chance of either causing a problem seems to be a very remote, but real, possibility. Of course, all that could just be BS.
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If the 7.62mm Sportical has an extruded upper like the 5.56mm does I would look for something else. Extrusions may be okay, but I like forgings better than something that's squished out as if by a Play-Doh Fun Factory. Forging compacts and aligns the molecules in the metal making it stronger and it's a harder alloy to start with.
The best information I have on 7.62mm vs. .308 Winchester says the ammo is the same externally but the mil-spec brass is thicker. That reduces the case capacity and raises the pressure a lot higher than SAAMI spec .308. The mil-spec chambers are longer and looser to accomodate more fouling build-up or to keep hot brass from swelling up and sticking in the chamber during (and after) full-auto fire. Thinner .308 brass MAY stretch excessively in 7.62 chambers. 7.62mm will have higher than SAMMI spec pressures in .308 chambers. The chance of either causing a problem seems to be a very remote, but real, possibility. Of course, all that could just be BS.
Yup, that's the feel I got for the differences between 308 and 7.62.
As to extrusion v forged, DPMS uses 6066 T6 extruded, which is a high strength alloy, then heat treated and artificially aged to achieve extremely uniform properties. The T6 treatment makes aluminum from different starting sources uniform in physical properties. :)
http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/alum.html (http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/alum.html)
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*Sigh* again... one of my local shops has a 7.62 on order from DPMS for over a year... said it was a custom jobber, but...
the only ARs coming in from anyone are 5.56.
AND to make matters worse, I found out PA doesn't let you hunt with semis, 4 round mag or no. Not good, I can't figure that one out.
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Sorry I'm late on this, guys! If you don't have a 5.56, that'd by my number one choice...ammo availability and simple versatility.
1) Stag (an advertiser, but the two that I have are superb and at a fair price)
2) S&W M&P (overpriced, but an excellent gun...my go-to AR)
3) DPMS (in short supply right now)
4) Rock River (I don't personally own one, but about a billion of my friends do and they all swear by them)
5) Sig 556 (heavy, but a really nice rifle)
6) J&T Distributing/Double Star (what can I say? cheap and works...one of my first ARs in the pre-Ban days)
7) JP Enterprises (pricey and worth every penny)
Get many, many magazines! Brownell's & Magpuls are my first choices...both are rare right now...
Michael B
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Sorry I'm late on this, guys! If you don't have a 5.56, that'd by my number one choice...ammo availability and simple versatility.
1) Stag (an advertiser, but the two that I have are superb and at a fair price)
2) S&W M&P (overpriced, but an excellent gun...my go-to AR)
3) DPMS (in short supply right now)
4) Rock River (I don't personally own one, but about a billion of my friends do and they all swear by them)
5) Sig 556 (heavy, but a really nice rifle)
6) J&T Distributing/Double Star (what can I say? cheap and works...one of my first ARs in the pre-Ban days)
7) JP Enterprises (pricey and worth every penny)
Get many, many magazines! Brownell's & Magpuls are my first choices...both are rare right now...
Michael B
The above came from MB and he or either of you can answer this question. What makes a really good AR? Using the list above, I take the opinion of someone who is an expert in his field; as I should. But what makes a really good AR and why?
My profession is in finance and IT (mostly IT). I used to sell PCs and Macs years ago and I could tell one a Mac was better and I would could show one why. So any insight would be great on what the AR quality scale.
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It all depends on your expectations. What I think.
1) Dependability, all that MB mentioned get an A.
2) Durability, " "
3) Accuracy, now that depends on your choice of options, and your willingness to work with what you buy.
a) free floated barrels tend to be more accurate, does not mean they are, but tend to be.
b) heavy barrels tend to be more accurate, but how much more? Once again, how much are you willing to work with your rifle?
c) barrel twist rate, and what you intend to shoot in your rifle? 55 grain, milsurp is not going to shoot really well in most rifles as far as accuracy, and by that I mean under an inch for 5 shots. But ammo go's way up from there, if your buying match type ammo, or building your own with premium bullets.
d) Les Baer is the only one that comes to mind with an accuracy guarantee, but I would expect dependability to go down, although, Les makes top notch stuff.
4) Accessorizing, they all take the same accessories, so take your pick, except for the gas piston guns, like the SIG, then you can have a folding stock, as the buffer tube is not used, but you will pay a premium for the rifle, not that it's not worth it, but is that feature worth it to YOU!!!
So like a 1911 or a small block Chevy, it's gonna run with what it was designed for, if you want more, you can fix it. You can fine tune it to your needs.
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Method of manufacture for one, Extruded, machined casting, milled billet, 2) tightness of fit between upper and lower, and tolerances of internal parts, 3) Actual materials used, for example a TiN (titanium Nitride ) plated part has more wear resistance than one that is unplated, one grade of steel will hold up better than another and it can differ from application to application.
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*Sigh* again... one of my local shops has a 7.62 on order from DPMS for over a year... said it was a custom jobber, but...
the only ARs coming in from anyone are 5.56.
AND to make matters worse, I found out PA doesn't let you hunt with semis, 4 round mag or no. Not good, I can't figure that one out.
You need a Remington 7600 pump, regular or synthetic. The synthetic looks more tactical and it's $125 cheaper. IMO pumps are les likely to be banned anytime soon. When you aren't hunting you can pop in an aftermarket 10-round mag. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/rem3010seetm.html
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Has anyone ever had a Z-M Weapons LR 300? Or an older model ZM Weapons for that matter? They're expensive but appear to be well made. The LR 300 is the same thing as the new Para Tactical Target Rifle that's coming out next year. They have a telescopic folding stock that brings the OAL down to a barely legal 26.25".
http://www.zmweapons.com/lr_rifles.htm
http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_rifle.php#specs
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OK, to please jumbofrank re forged vs squeezed, and within MB's recommendations and my price range: DPMS AP4 Panther Carbine, 223/5.56 16 inch, A3 upper 7xxxxT6, M4 barrel, chrome upgrade. $819.99 + $24.00 s&h @ impactguns.com . ;D 6 to 8 weeks. Also have the Sportical 7.62 on order, although I'm doubtful it will come in before the anointed one takes over.
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Well, I'm happy. :) Congrats Fatman. If military spec 7075-T6 alloy forgings are good enough for my uncle Sam it's good enough for me too. ;) Extrusions are good for making for pasta, not rifles.