The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: jpr9954 on November 13, 2008, 10:07:02 PM
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Given the price and availability of surplus 5.45x39 ammo, I am thinking strongly of getting a rifle/carbine in that caliber. AIM Surplus and Wideners have the ammo for about $120 per 1040 rounds. Thus, I could get about 3,000 round for what I just paid for 1,000 round of .223.
I had been thinking to getting the Polish Tantal which is a AK74 variant. Pre-election it was going for about $499. I haven't priced it since. However, I had read some reviews which said people were getting keyholing from this rifle.
The Bulgarian AK74's are supposed to be much better but are in the upper $6-700 range. From what I've heard, there are a bunch of Bulgarian AK74 kits in the country waiting to be matched up with US-made receivers.
The alternative is to go with the AR-15 platform. Smith and Wesson is now offering their M&P-15 in the 5.45x39. I can go with either a full rifle for about $850 or go with just the upper for $550 from AIM and mate it with a AR lower I already have. I'm thinking the AR would have more maintenance but be a more accurate rifle. I have 3 stripped lowers ready to assemble which I bought months ago.
Has anyone used either the AK or the AR in 5.45x39 and if so, what are your experiences?
Love to hear comments on going AR vs. AK.
Thanks
John
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If Obama gets his way your ammo supply will dry up overnight. If you MUST get a poodle shooter stick with.223/5.56.
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If Obama gets his way your ammo supply will dry up overnight. If you MUST get a poodle shooter stick with.223/5.56.
I already have 5 in 5.56 (don't tell the One!). I was looking for a change. What caliber would you suggest that isn't a poodle shooter?
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.308 AR 10 or the Saiga in .308 (mags might be a problem) The Saiga comes in 2 barrel lengths 16 inch or 20 inch throw on an Fiberforce stock from Tapco and you are good to go ;D
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I tend to stick with the caliber the weapon was made to shoot. Keyhole in my experience is due to wrong bullet for twist rate, or shooting outside the limits of the rifle. Maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong? I think the Tantel would be my choice.
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The problem with the Tantal's is that the grinder-monkeys at Century Arms put 5.56mm barrels on them (they both start with a 5, right?). As far as getting a 5.45, go ahead, but get a butt-load of ammo NOW! Too many people think that they will scavenge their ammo after TSHTF, but the reality is most of your thugs and gang-bangers don't carry much ammo beyond what they have in their weapons, check out google video, you can see a lot of the punks on video with few if any spare mags and some with Poncho Villa style bandoleers with AK bullets in them. OTOH the ones who have enough brains to carry spare ammo (or, after TEOTWAWKI, the cops, NG's or others that might impose "law and order") are going to travailing in large, heavily armed groups which you are unlikely to successfully defend yourself against, and therefore you will not get their ammo.
I prefer the big 7.62x51 or even 7.62x54r weapons. Forget about the long-range stuff, what you want is POWER. If the S has hit the F and you get in a fight you want the SOB's Dead Right There, not wounded and still able to fight. You want to be able to penetrate cover and deal a disabling blow. Remember, there won't be a hospital waiting to patch you up if you are wounded, so you cannot afford to risk having some scumbag take two or three rounds and come back at you, you need him down-and-out.
Small caliber EBR's should be relegated to those who cannot physically handle larger weapons and who, by preference, will be fighting from cover inside your retreat. The ability to carry 3 or 4 hundred rounds means little if you need a half a dozen for each BG. If, however, you do get a minor-caliber weapon, get one that will WORK. AK's need very little maintenance and parts breakage is a very rear event, neither is true with the AR-15 family, I don't care who built it.
The choice between the 5.56 and the 5.45 is another issue. The 5.56 depends on the bullet fragmenting for much of it's lethality, something which happens only at velocities above 2700fps, which means about 275 meters from a 20" barrel and 175 meters from a 16". Likewise the 5.56 tends to break up if it hits an obstruction between you and the target (not as big a problem with the SS-109/M-855 ammo, but still a problem). The 5.45 is designed to tumble (yaw) on impact, but the bullet stays together, which makes it better for firing through light cover. Of the two I would prefer the 5.45, but you have to make your own decision.
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Warhawke,
You've given me a lot to think about. Now to digest it.
As to the heavier stuff, I think I've got it partially covered with my Swedes (Mausers and Ljungman) and my M-1 Garand. That said, I see the utility in having something in semi-auto in a basic round like the .308/7.62x51 that allows you to load using magazines. Then the contenders become stuff like the M1A, the FN FAL (and clones), or the AR-10. Any feeling which way to go with those?
Again, thanks for the advice.
John
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AR-10's crap where they eat. The AR-15/M-16's needed new powder because the Ball powder the military was using was clogging them up, so why would you want a weapon that uses the same gas system that most of the ammo you can get has some form of ball powder?
The M-1A/M-14 was and is a fine weapon, BUT it and the M-1 have a couple weak spots over the long haul. The receivers can stretch (just a few thousandths, but enough to change the headspace) and the must be properly maintained for combat. Most guys today don't realize how important it is to use GREASE instead of oil or hi-tech lubes (I ruined an M-1 this way, my dad who used an M-1 in the early '60's was aghast). IF you know how to take care of it it will likely last you a lifetime plus, but I don't recommend them for novices.
The FN is a far better SHTF weapon due to it's modular design and lower maintenance requirements, but I dislike the recoil spring in the butt. I Think the ultimate FN would be a DSA para Congo folder with the 18" barrel (which disposes of the buttstock spring for one inside the bolt-carrier) with an L1A1 Mag release and safety, an Israeli charging handle (which has a manual bolt assist feature) a tactical para rear sight (which has a windage adjustment knob built in) and a stripper clip scope mount. I would also like it with full stock, which seems odd but all I want the folder for is the action, not the stock. Got 3 grand you don't need?
My pick for the SHTF Rifle of the Century however is;
E) none of the above
The PTR-91 is the (THE) rifle for the end of the world as we know it/Mad Max/name your movie situations.
The roller-locked action will fire crap that I wouldn't put in an FN or M-1A. It has no gas system to clog. It is incredibly forgiving of headspace, which means crap that won't load into an FN or M-1A will run. It almost never breaks anything and a handful of parts (extra rollers, locking shoulder, firing pin and spring, cocking handle) will ensure it runs longer than you will. I know guys that have H&K91's with a quarter million rounds through them that still run (though accuracy is no longer their strong point) and the PTR is better. The PTR's rear sight is adjustable for windage and elevation, and has a 100 peep instead of the crappy notch, and the chamber flutes have been changed to reduce recoil (I won't explain that it would take too long), plus the heavy barrel with conventional rifling makes it at shooting stuff like cast lead bullets. The stocks still suck and I would kill to get somebody to make a Namibian stock set http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/finish/m3blkhk9102.jpg (http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/finish/m3blkhk9102.jpg) (HEAR THAT MIKE? YOU KNOW PEOPLE, COME ON GUY) but you can live with them. Did I mention that mags can be had for as low as $3 a pop? They are sturdy as heck too.
Hope this helps
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A lot of the anectdotes about 5.45mm terminal ballistics are just hearsay. It looks like it woud be better than 5.56mm when you see the results of shooting gelatin blocks, but people aren't made of gelatin. When the bullets the tumble they create a temporary stretch cavity that "snaps shut" leaving a small permanent wound most of the time. The 5.56mm offers better performance because it's about 30% more powerful, in addition to being more accurate, and having much better penetration. Plus you have the befefit of being able to get softpoint and hollowpoint .223 ammo in nearly any gun store in the country if you want something other than FMJ. If you think a 1,300 ft/lb 5.56mm poodle-shooter is weak, wait until you try a 1,000 ft/lb 5.45 x 39mm.