The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: CDR on November 17, 2008, 12:35:10 PM
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OK, I've got an opportunity to get either a Bushmaster M4 A3, 16" (removable handle) for $1,099 or a 20" Colt Match Target HBAR (non-removable handle) for $1,269. I'm partial to the 16" M4 style as I predominantly want the gun for home defense and plinking at the range, but my desire is also to get the AR that has the best overall quality. I've never owned an AR but with the Obamination coming on January 20th....the time is now.
Please offer any recommendations or experiences anyone has had with either of these two ARs. One little concern is that Colt offers a lifetime warranty and Bushmaster only one year. I've also tried to get a S&W M&P 15 but have struck out getting one as my local Gander Mountain moves them at about a rate of 4 an hour as soon as they come in and I've never gotten there in time.
I can also wait for another Smith and Wesson M&P 15 flat top to arrive and simply put an EOTech red dot sight on it. They're going for $899 when Gander Mountain gets them in. That could be a good solution.
Many thanks
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My $0.02
If your going to put an optic on it: Bushmaster.
If you might sell it down the road: Colt
Have fun either way.
Ratcatcher 55
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I like Colt better than Bushmaster but the M4 with the stock collapsed is a lot easier to manuver indoors. My advice - go somewhere besides Gander Mountain. The last pistol I bought was $200 higher at Gander than at a local gun store.
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Based on set up and style, and what you are talking about (home defense) I would go with the 16". I have a DPMS 20" with fixed handle (DPMS Classic A2), and I love it, but there are advantages to the flat top and shorter barrel. The Bushmaster you are looking at is on my list to get (if it has collapsing stock).
Price ... know the general range (which is wacking is some areas these days), know your pennies, know what you are willing to spend, and if you can find one that works with these things BUY IT !!!.
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Scuttlebutt around has Bass Pro Shops, "acquiring" Gander Mtn. over the next few months. West Palm Beach's Gander outlet was sold out with no date for re-stocking of 99% of AR varients, mags, accessories, M+P's, DPMS, Colt's all sold out.
Like the HBAR, price for the M+P's always work, to go into the "Bush" will work also. I will throw in my .02 cents as a proud Sig556 owner.
DPMS are harder and harder to find without some serious timing and effort.
Good Luck, The prices for these rifles will be like gas prices this summer. UP an UP.
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I had an H-Bar like what you described, liked it but my eyes are not what they used to be so had to let it go. The H-Bar was accurate and reliable. I now have an Oly w/flattop and 16". Great rifle. Have never had a DPMS, don't know much about them.
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DPMS is short for Defense Procurement Manufacturing Services. They used to make a lot of M-16, M-14, and M203 parts for Army contracts before they went into making whole rifles. They know what they're doing. Last year they were bought by Cerberus, the same company that owns Bushmaster, Remington, and Cobb Manufacturing. They're all good brands IMO.
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From what I hear in these forums, like JumboFranks says they are all pretty good.
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You really are looking at the whole sprectrum of ARs with the Colt Match Target HBAR or Bushmaster M4 A3 or Smith & Wesson M&P.
The Colt Match Target HBAR is designed for NRA High Power type matches. Very accurate and a fine rifle. Heavy and Long.
The Bushmaster M4 A3 is designed for close quarters and close shots. Short and light. Also a good choice.
The Smith & Wesson M&P can be had in several configurations and also a fine weapon.
You need to decide what your purpose is for buying an AR. If you just want to have one you can pick a standard weight and length AR15(20 inch barrel and about 6 1/2 lb). The price is lower and for plinking at targets, a very satisfactory buy.
I have competed in NRA many NRA matches in the past and used the equivelant of the Colt Match Target HBAR. I now shoot almost exclusively 3-gun and use a Stag short barrel (16 inch) with a collapseable stock.
Decide the primary use of the weapon then you will be able to pick the one that will make you happy.
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Yes. Get the one that suits your needs best. Or get two ARs. ;D I have a 16" with collapsible stock and "ghost ring" sight for close in work, and a free floated 20" flat top with a scope and bipod. One gun can't fit every need.
BTW, the large aperture peep sight came with my tritium post front sight. Your pupil dilates so much you can't even see through the other hole at night. I have a fake suppressor on the 16" barrel that makes it look like it's a 10" barrel. It should intimidate BGs if they're looking down the muzzle. If not the unsuppressed muzzle flash will. ;)
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OK....thanks for the replies guys...much appreciated. I just learned that I have a chance at a Sig 556 this weekend....NOW what do I do. Sig 556 opinions welcomed.
Thanks again.
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I've heard only great reviews of the 556, and not much bad about anything else SIG makes.
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The Sig 556 is heavier. around 8.8 lbs. It is also heavier forward until loaded, than it achieves a wonderful balance. Gas operated with 2 stage positioning, in case of lots and lots of shooting, position 2 gives more venting. USSA (the Moderator) for this thread, is doing a torture test on one currently. He was around 800 rds. with no love or cleaning, and NO problems. Waiting for the next follow up report.
The factory sights, frankly, stink, plan on some type of optics. I slapped a NcStar on it and to 100 yds. it is dead on. Mine also hated Wolf ammo, It may have been too new earlier this Spring, and may shoot them now, but it prefers full power 5.56 rounds, or any other name brand .223. Takes PMAGS, surplus AR mags, and the trigger pull is sweet.
Had a squib round damage the crown of the barrel, and customer service replaced it in 2 weeks for around $75.00 and shipping.
Michael Bane may still have his review on video here in the archives or product reviews. It is good to watch.
Picitinny rails all over it, built very well.
You have a number of good options in front of you, and personal choice and application will lead you to the right one.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/Sig556.jpg)
Plus it just looks cool. 8)
Let us know how it works out, post pics, and get quick.
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Thanks guys. I just re-watched Michael's video review of the Sig 556 and I must say there were many smiling faces all around after shooting the Sig. Walt Rausch was especially effusive and impressed with the rifle...predominanty over the trigger and its resulting accuracy right out of the box. Michael mentioned that it doesn't "feel" like an AR 15. Can anyone explain in what way it is different to shoot, aside from the weight?
Lastly, what is a going price for the Sig 556 these days. I'm anxious to have a look at one...hopefully in a couple of days.
Thanks again everyone.
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Gunsamerica.com has Sig556 for $1300 to unreal. I paid almost $1100.00 NIB back in Feb. Prices have gone steadily up.
Check all resources online and local for the best price. It is right about what others toward the top will cost.
Partner of mine got a M+P 15T for $899.00 not a bad deal at all, (and its a fine rifle built with STAG specs) but compared to the Sig, feels like a feather. HBAR and other AR variants are just gripped differently. IMHO, the "feel" is similiar to grabbing a good ol' Ruger 10/22 and than grabbing a 300 Win. or Rem 700. They may shoot the same 5.56/.223 but the grip, receiver, (sorry hard to put in words), IS different. Kinda like driving a F150,all's good, and than getting in an F350 with a tow package. Kinda the same truck but Not.
Maybe MB can elaborate, it does not "feel" like an AR type, maybe its the balance. But when I "turned it up" against cinder blocks, an old Dell Monitor, and some pumpkins, others stopped shooting to watch me roll through (5) 30 rd. clips as fast as I could rock n roll. ;D Nothing was left but some ghoulash and glass.
I can't quite describe the "it" factor, I know others have their own thoughts. But if you can get any of the previous brands listed you won't be disappointed. Test drive them if you can. Pick one your going to use it for, and go get one..
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Did a quick search on the SIG556. Able Ammo has it for 1500 w/holosight and Dynamic Armament has the same for 1800. Weight is 7.8#. Has collapsable stock. If I was looking, I would probably get the SIG.
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Thanks guys for all your thoughtful and thorough replies. I right now have a few local options that I am mulling over. I just found out that a dealer I frequent will be getting in some Sig 556 Halo rifles, the version with the SeeMore holographic sight, which would be the model I would want. Not sure when they will come in but the guess is within a few weeks. Their price is $1,550 and I am seriously thinking that that could be the way to go after viewing Michael's video on the rifle in the Tactical Rifle section of the DRTV Videos.
Alternatively, I can pick up today, locally, either a Bushmaster M4 A3 for $1,099, a Colt Match Target 20" for $1,299 or a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 flat top with no sights for $899.
That Sig DOES look nice!! This one is tough.
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The only real big complaint I've read about on the reviews of the Sig 556 is the really cheap plastic used throughout the rifle with respect to its furniture. It also appears to be loosely fitted which can be felt when shot....for a gun as well thought out as this and for an expensive price, I'm a bit surprised if this is true. Can anyone who has shot or held this rifle comment if these issues are true?.
It may be a few weeks before my local dealer gets the Sigs in in to see and feel for myself. Part of me says to go and get the Colt Match Target right now and another part of me says to hold off and wait to see the Sig. Unfortunately, the option of getting two is non existent....so I need to pick one. By the way, I tried tonight a S&W M&P15 and a Bushmaster M4A3 (NY State "post ban" versions with the ridiculous pinned/welded "unretractable" stock) and was very disappointed with the tons of creep in both triggers. The Sig sounds like it has a marvelous trigger and the Colt Match Target I've tried is a bit heavy but breaks like a glass rod with no creep.
I really want to see the Sig 556 but probably will risk losing the Colt while I wait. No Colts appear to be arriving anywhere these days. I would love a Colt M4 but to find one that is NY State compliant is a monumental task it appears. The Match Target would have to do.
Thanks
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As an owner of a Sig 556, and only speaking as as an owner, opinions will differ as to the comfort and feel. "cheap plastic" is IMHO an insult, (not from you), but the difference MB was talking about not feeling like an AR. The foregrip is two piece and locks in place around the barrel assembly rather soundly.
Sig didn't just throw this rifle out there like some other AR varients, it is different than an M+P, or Olympic, or others that "feel" llike a traditional AR platform.
The "furniture" could be considered on other models, but that will be ultimately up to you. I don't feel it or consider it a factor.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/DSCF1335.jpg)
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I apologize for posting too early. I was photobucketing and etc,...
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/DSCF1334.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/DSCF1333.jpg)
Anyway, the Sig is not an AR "feeling" rifle, but is built well, and opinions will carry from each person differently.
I have not had any FTF, FTE, or any other issues with good ammo. Customer service was spot on, and if its what YOU are looking for will be a good choice.
The others previously posted will do what they were built to do, and will depend on how you apply their use.
I have others on my short list, but can honestly say the Sig556 kicks a**.
Others will as well, just my .02cents,... Oh, I owe after Obama gets in office, .29 cents, so I'll have to put it on my TAB. ::)
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That is a gorgeous rifle TW....many thanks for taking the time to post the photos of your Sig 556. I was surprised and taken aback by the plastic comments I read on some of the reviews and agree that it is insulting. I know Sig has always made a top quality product and to think that they would cut corners on this new rifle, when so much thought and effort has gone into its development, makes little sense.
I am anxious for my dealer to get his shipment of Sigs and think it will be worth the wait. Can you tell me what you like most about the rifle and also describe the feel of the trigger. It seems a foregone conclusion with many AR 15 owners that the triggers are awful out of the box, with the exception of a few makers. It seems Sig has done an excellent job in this regard from what I have read as well as Walt Rausch's comments in Michael's video.
Thanks again TW...much appreciated and congratulations on a great rifle. What scope is that you have mounted on your Sig? The one my dealer is getting has a SeeMore Halo sight....no idea if they are any good, but one review stated that it was hard to see in the sunlight.
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From what I hear, the SIG appears to be a great rifle. For my Oly AR I will be getting an Aimpoint sight for it. I am not familiar with the holo sight on the SIG, so no comment. I have two nephews, one retired Army Ranger MSGT with tours from Desert Storm to Iraq and Afghanistan and the other Army 10thMtn, LERP and SpecOps and Marine Recon. They both recommended the Aimpoint, having used different sights in combat. Just a suggestion.
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Agreed DesertMarine. It appears the state of the art for red dot sights are the Aimpoint and EOtech as they are both widely used by our military.
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Hey CDR, I haven't made the transition to Holo, or Red-Dot, I'm, I guess, just a traditional crosshair guy. The scope is a NcStar 6x42 P4. It has an illuminated reticle in green or red, with adjustable brightness. Quick yardage compensator on top. Very budget oriented, (to buy more mags and ammo). 8)
I enjoy the extra weight," feels" very, very solid when fired. For me, when shooting slowly, the recoil doesn't even move the rifle off target, and the field of view remains on the target. At 100yds. or less, it is right at POA. If I had a local facility that had 200-250-275 yds. or more, I'm confident it could consistently reach out. I never really purchased it for long range apps anyway.
I put a plain black vertical fore grip up front, after trying with and without, and the ergonomics "feel" better with it on. (IMHO).
No other plans to add light, lasers, hood ornaments, or accessories. Although, it has the rails for it.
The trigger, when slow precision firing, on a rest has some travel to the "break". I usually take up the travel and the pressure needed to send the round "downrange" is just a little "pressure". In "fun" mode, the trigger is reset almost instantly, and travels right back. I have no problem with the trigger. I don't have a trigger pull tool, but it cant be that much? Does anyone else know?
The factory sights are a ligit complaint, flip down huge blade up front, and thats it.
Hope it works out for you to get one.
Good shooting.
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OK......I found out today that Sig Sauer, for the four states that require post pan configurations, i.e. New York, New Jersey, California and Massachusetts, don't do what every other AR manufacturer does with respect to the stock and compensator. They don't pin/lock the retractable stock, they replace it with an A2 style solid stock. Further, they don't pin and weld the compensator, they remove it. I must say that I am bummed by this as I feel it completely changes the look of the rifle for the worst. This is the only configuration that they will ship to these four states as confirmed by my conversation directly with Sig Sauer. It's bad enough we have to comply with the absurdity of these rules, but Sig could have at least maintained the look of the rifle and still complied, just like Bushmaster, Colt and all the others do. I even put a $100 deposit on the Sig 556, prior to learning this, which is expected to arrive in a week or so but am turned off by the modifications. There are a couple on Gunbroker with the A2 stock and removed compensator if you are curious what the converted Sig looks like.
Lastly, I have a lead on a Colt M4 Match Target, New in Box, which is as scarce as it gets for an M4 these days....about $60 less than the Sig. I'm seriously considering the Colt given what Sig did to the 556 to make it post ban. Any opinions are welcome.
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OMG. A couple at Gunboker are selling for almost 4 times what I paid for my first AR-15. I didn't see the converted 556 but I can imagine what they look like. The folding stock version sure looks good.
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OK...I went with the NIB Colt Match Target M4. The modifications Sig Sauer has made to the 556 for the four postban only states is completely unacceptable and horribly executed, IMHO. They could have secured the collapsable stock instead of putting a solid A2 style stock, which destroys the look of the rifle. They also could have pinned the compensator instead of just removing it. Those two modifications are what all the other manufacturers do for those lucky enough to live in the states of NY, NJ, MA and CA.
The Colt box was still sealed when I arrived at the shop. I picked it up this weekend and also got a few of the Colt 9 round magazines, the same ones that come with the AR. More importantly, I was fortunate enough to also pick up, at the same gun shop, four 30 round preban magazines that are brand new old stock and legal in New York State. Magazines manufactured prior to September 13, 1994 are legal but scarcer then hens teeth these days..... ;D
Thanks everyone who replied for all your assistance.
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Ahemmm ..... of course you know....there will need to be pictures..
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But of course..... :D
I will be happy to......right after I get to play with it and take it out of its box on Christmas Day. It gives me time to look at Aimpoints, EOTechs and ACOGs as well as all the tremendous information found on ar15.com.
Here's a great article I found last night on keeping your AR running. Pat Rogers, who writes for SWAT magazine, wrote this article and contributes regularly to the site. He's a fountain of knowledge and a top national instructor on the AR 15 platform.
http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf
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But of course..... :D
I will be happy to......right after I get to play with it and take it out of its box on Christmas Day. It gives me time to look at Aimpoints, EOTechs and ACOGs as well as all the tremendous information found on ar15.com.
Here's a great article I found last night on keeping your AR running. Pat Rogers, who writes for SWAT magazine, wrote this article and contributes regularly to the site. He's a fountain of knowledge and a top national instructor on the AR 15 platform.
http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf
I know where you're coming from.
A couple of years ago my wife and I passed a hardware store while returning from a 'Friday after T-Day' shopping adventure. They had a sign that said 'All Guns Reduced For Clearance'. Of course I did a U-turn. They had a neat little single shot .223 that I liked and it was priced at $200 out the door. The wife said it could be a Christmas present, along with a varmint scope I had on order already for another rifle. So, I had to take it home and wait 'til Christmas to play with it.
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No one has posted on this thread for a long time. But just my two cent 4 years later...the M&P is will get you what you want with very good quality at a lower price than the Colt.