The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on November 18, 2008, 01:12:20 AM
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Lets just say for the sake of argument that another AWB is going to happen... no ifs ands or buts...
Would you support a cluase in the AWB that stated it applied to LEOs and LEAs? In other words, every one but the miltary had to fallow it.
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I would not support ANY weapon ban, under ANY circumstances, in any state or country on this planet, for any reason at all. One gun a month is not a limit, it's a goal.
PS, Well maybe no nukes for anybody else. We invented them and as far as I know we never licensed their manufacture to any one else, so under Patent law we can have them but everyone else owes us royalties.
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thats not what I asked...
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The clause itself ? It's ridiculous.
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The clause itself ? It's ridiculous.
So your ok with the police having things that you can't? When I say police, I don't mean the agency. I'm talking about the officers themsefls.
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So your ok with the police having things that you can't? When I say police, I don't mean the agency. I'm talking about the officers themsefls.
Thought you meant agencies.
No, just because a person is in that profession should not make him special, (Yes I know I support nation wide carry for Cops, but as I stated in that thread, only because it gives us a toe in the door)
More Police officers are arrested for violent crime annually than CCW holders.
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I have not read anything on it for a while, but as I recall England's ban is similar to what you are stating. Most police officers do not carry or have access to firearms (or at least they did not back when I studied their system). Like all weapons bans, it has not worked! It has left the officers subject to firearms held by criminals, and it has made them in danger from clubs, knives and fists.
As much as I would not want a ban of firearms for citizens, and as much as I think it is a double standard to give the police force something the general citizenship can not have, I feel to completely disarm local communities would be one more step down the staircase to servanthood.
However, think of the irony that would be involved in disarming law enforcement. They would leave the general citizenship with the exact situation that the Revolutionaries were in when they used private arms to fight for our freedom that is now being stripped by removing our arms ::)
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I think ALL laws should apply to EVERY citizen, period.
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So your ok with the police having things that you can't? When I say police, I don't mean the agency. I'm talking about the officers themsefls.
Under your way of thinking....
Rule #1 Assume a weapons ban
How bout this..... Lets just not have an AWB!
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Under your way of thinking....
Rule #1 Assume a weapons ban
How bout this..... Lets just not have an AWB!
That works for me. There's no such thing as an assault weapon anyway, and assault rifles are already restricted. Off duty police officers should have no rights that the general populace has, whether it's owning assault rifles, carrying a concealed pistol, speeding and running red lights without getting a ticket, or getting free coffee and donuts, etc.
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Assault is an action, not a tool.
As far as I know, the previous AWB had no effect on crime. To those of us who live in the real world, this would indicate that the AWB was useless. To those with the liberal/socialist mindset, this means it wasn't tried hard enough. So I predict they will try it again.
That said, I agree that no police force should be able to have any weapon that is prohibited to the average citizen.
Grizzle Bear
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Assault is an action, not a tool.
As far as I know, the previous AWB had no effect on crime. To those of us who live in the real world, this would indicate that the AWB was useless. To those with the liberal/socialist mindset, this means it wasn't tried hard enough. So I predict they will try it again.
That said, I agree that no police force should be able to have any weapon that is prohibited to the average citizen.
Grizzle Bear
What about a drill?
I personally dont get so worked up about the term "assault weapon". I think that you could make the case that it is a legitimate description for the semi auto versions of the full auto rifles being used on the battlefield (ARs, AKs, etc).
I think that this debate really causes us to lose the forest for the trees (Yeah, it has kinda become the N-word to most progun people). I think that its important to remember that with the battle over the 2nd Amendment, presentation is everything. The ignorant masses dont get all worked up over M1 Garands or the Remington 7615s because they dont look like the full auto spray and pray rifles that they see on CNN being used by terrorists and by our soldiers. I would also submit that if given an image of a SA 80 (especially with the magazine removed) they probably would not have the same knee jerk reaction either.
What is so despicable about the term "assault weapon" is how members of Congress use it to manipulate the uneducated American people into furthering their anti-gun agenda. They understand the fear that the masses have and are using it to their full advantage. The term "assault weapon" has become so synonymous with AKs and ARs that the masses think anything congress has classified as an "assualt weapon" is a weapon of mass destruction.
I would bet that most Americans that favor an AWB dont even realize what all it entails. They probably just think that it will get AKs and those "evil black rifles" off of the streets and out of the hands of criminals and gang members (because they are all full auto and they only belong on the battlefield -- tongue in cheek). They dont realize how many other semiauto rifles Congress has earmarked to be included in that ban simply for the purpose of arms control.
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would bet that most Americans that favor an AWB dont even realize what all it entails. They probably just think that it will get AKs and those "evil black rifles" off of the streets and out of the hands of criminals and gang members (because they are all full auto and they only belong on the battlefield -- tongue in cheek). They dont realize how many other semiauto rifles Congress has earmarked to be included in that ban simply for the purpose of arms control.
+10 Hear this all the time >:(
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It's not just rifles that look like assault rifles either. And it's not even just rifles. It's weapons. They put shotguns and pistols on lists like that all the time. People who aren't gun enthusiasts think it means machineguns or assault rifles because that's what the news videos show whenever they say assault weapons. They don't realize that it's actually rifles, pistols, and shotguns, but NOT the assault rifles and machineguns they show.
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What about a drill?
I personally dont get so worked up about the term "assault weapon". I think that you could make the case that it is a legitimate description for the semi auto versions of the full auto rifles being used on the battlefield (ARs, AKs, etc).
I think that this debate really causes us to lose the forest for the trees (Yeah, it has kinda become the N-word to most progun people). I think that its important to remember that with the battle over the 2nd Amendment, presentation is everything. The ignorant masses dont get all worked up over M1 Garands or the Remington 7615s because they dont look like the full auto spray and pray rifles that they see on CNN being used by terrorists and by our soldiers. I would also submit that if given an image of a SA 80 (especially with the magazine removed) they probably would not have the same knee jerk reaction either.
What is so despicable about the term "assault weapon" is how members of Congress use it to manipulate the uneducated American people into furthering their anti-gun agenda. They understand the fear that the masses have and are using it to their full advantage. The term "assault weapon" has become so synonymous with AKs and ARs that the masses think anything congress has classified as an "assualt weapon" is a weapon of mass destruction.
I would bet that most Americans that favor an AWB dont even realize what all it entails. They probably just think that it will get AKs and those "evil black rifles" off of the streets and out of the hands of criminals and gang members (because they are all full auto and they only belong on the battlefield -- tongue in cheek). They dont realize how many other semiauto rifles Congress has earmarked to be included in that ban simply for the purpose of arms control.
"Assault Weapon" is a meaningless phrase coined by the anti gun lobby with the PURPOSE of confusing the uninformed into thinking that semi automatic military look a likes are some sort of demon machine gun.
In order to defeat the grabbers agenda we need to educate the uninformed masses with accurate information, this begins with terminology, if you use their propaganda words instead of accurate terminology you are undercutting your own message. The proper terms are "Utility Rifle" and "standard capacity Magazine".
And join the NRA if you are not already a member.
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Here in MA, where the original 1994 AWB still exists, (with modifications) the stupidity of the law is that I CAN buy a AR varient in several styles like a Colt Sporter, Bushmaster and several others as long as they have fixed stocks and NO flash suppressors. Simply idiotic that they ("The Peoples Republic of Cambridge") think it's any less dangerous without these options.
Same thing with Glock pistols. You cannot buy a NEW Glock in MA but you can buy a remanufactured Glock from an FFL because LEA's turn in old pistols and they resell them in MA as new/retrofit pistols. Up here it is all about how much money can be generated and dumped into the state coffers for subsequent mis-spending by the afformentioned communist regime that runs this state. At about 5000 bucks for each and every handgun approved regardless of model type, it can, and does get a little expensive for PARA, Colt, Springfield, Glock and the meriad of other gun makers to get anything approved. Smith and Wesson gets a pass and everything they sell is approved, including the AR varients that they make.....
This can happen everywhere across the country. They may never take away the right but they can surely make it a royal pain in the ass for every enthusiast out there...
One of the dumbest things on the books up here is ANYONE can buy a muzzle loading firearm here because they are considered "Primitive Firearms" and according to the dumb asses in Boston, MUST be safer for the public...seems to me that a rifle that can throw .45 or .50 cal sabot rounds out to 200 yards is PRETTY dangerous.....(we'll keep that little tidbit a secret and no one will ever find out...)
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Once again! If you have not joined the NRA do so NOW! Send the NRA $10 (or more) every month when you set down to pay your bills. ;D This will be constructive help in the fight to keep our rights.
And then, when dealing with the non-gun toting folks out there, do what you can to present a good image and constructive imformation about our hobby/sports.
If good PR can elect a president it could help our position. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Here in MA, where the original 1994 AWB still exists, (with modifications) the stupidity of the law is that I CAN buy a AR varient in several styles like a Colt Sporter, Bushmaster and several others as long as they have fixed stocks and NO flash suppressors. Simply idiotic that they ("The Peoples Republic of Cambridge") think it's any less dangerous without these options.
Same thing with Glock pistols. You cannot buy a NEW Glock in MA but you can buy a remanufactured Glock from an FFL because LEA's turn in old pistols and they resell them in MA as new/retrofit pistols. Up here it is all about how much money can be generated and dumped into the state coffers for subsequent mis-spending by the afformentioned communist regime that runs this state. At about 5000 bucks for each and every handgun approved regardless of model type, it can, and does get a little expensive for PARA, Colt, Springfield, Glock and the meriad of other gun makers to get anything approved. Smith and Wesson gets a pass and everything they sell is approved, including the AR varients that they make.....
This can happen everywhere across the country. They may never take away the right but they can surely make it a royal pain in the ass for every enthusiast out there...
One of the dumbest things on the books up here is ANYONE can buy a muzzle loading firearm here because they are considered "Primitive Firearms" and according to the dumb asses in Boston, MUST be safer for the public...seems to me that a rifle that can throw .45 or .50 cal sabot rounds out to 200 yards is PRETTY dangerous.....(we'll keep that little tidbit a secret and no one will ever find out...)
Infringement
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Infringement
I don't disagree entirely Eric but, I have NOT been denied a right to posess firearms or to protect my family. I've just been denied WHAT I can use to ensure that protection. My local LEA is very understanding and the store I buy from is run by an off-duty LEO from another town...
The list is not very extensive but there are plenty of fine firearms to choose from on the approved roster...
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I don't disagree entirely Eric but, I have NOT been denied a right to posess firearms or to protect my family. I've just been denied WHAT I can use to ensure that protection. My local LEA is very understanding and the store I buy from is run by an off-duty LEO from another town...
The list is not very extensive but there are plenty of fine firearms to choose from on the approved roster...
Well at the very least (by Dem standards) it is disenfranchisement. When a $500 gun has been driven up to $5000 by govt policies you and many others in your neck of the woods are being priced right out of your 2nd amendment right.
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Well at the very least (by Dem standards) it is disenfranchisement. When a $500 gun has been driven up to $5000 by govt policies you and many others in your neck of the woods are being priced right out of your 2nd amendment right.
The 5K is what the gun makers have to pay the state to get a firearm approved. The approved guns themselves are no more pricey than anywhere else...
As with all gun laws, they don't affect the criminals, they can buy whatever they can find on the street!
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I don't disagree entirely Eric but, I have NOT been denied a right to posess firearms or to protect my family. I've just been denied WHAT I can use to ensure that protection. My local LEA is very understanding and the store I buy from is run by an off-duty LEO from another town...
The list is not very extensive but there are plenty of fine firearms to choose from on the approved roster...
And if they start taking guns off the approved list???
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How about this? Since most of us believe that the 2nd was partially created to keep the tyranny of government in check, how about a clause that says, "If the people can't have them, the military and police can't either." That might change the thinking of some of the politicos. No AWB!
We have the leftovers of the '89 assault weapon ban still in place in Kalifornia and that was added to before the sunset of the national AWB. Additionally, we have an "approved" list of "safe" handguns which is continually getting smaller. Especially since we now have a law, going into effect in a little over a year, mandating that handguns microstamp the serial number on the primer of every round fired. There are no manufacturers that make guns that do this, so in 2010, handgun sales end in CA. Many gun makers have already stated that they will not do business in CA, including law enforcement. If the police can't get their guns, maybe they'll raise enough stink to get the law repealed. Maybe that would work on a new AWB too.
There is no "reasonable" gun control. The non-gunny type has been fooled by politicians and the media for too long on that one. Laws don't stop the lawless. People like my father-in-law see AR's on 24 and The Unit and believe that they can just fire forever. Or they see Glocks that never miss on cop shows and feel that criminals who have been shot by the police should have just had the gun shot from their hands.
Wake up your families, friends and neighbors. Take them to the range! I knew an ex-marine, who'd embraced eastern philosophy and became a miserable, lonely, veggie-anti-gunner-bicyclist. Took him to an open shooting area and let him blaze away. He's now a happily married cop with kids that loves to shoot and talk guns. He even eats a little red meat now and then. He's always smiling and actually credits me with some (I'll only accept a little - his wife is great) of the change in his life.
Tab, are you friendly to the idea of another AWB? You're allowed your own opinion, but I'd like to know the reasoning if you are.
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And if they start taking guns off the approved list???
Then I'll just buy em off the street! If that happens, it'll be survival of the fittest!
I don't like it, can't change it and my boss (wife) says I gotta live where she lives! Since I get special favors, I gotta agree with her! ;D
I moved to the N. England area in 1982 and have been trying to leave ever since...every once in a while, I get to go back to the America I grew up in and served for but then, reality sets in and it's back to the family!
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Then I'll just buy em off the street! If that happens, it'll be survival of the fittest!
I don't like it, can't change it and my boss (wife) says I gotta live where she lives! Since I get special favors, I gotta agree with her! ;D
I moved to the N. England area in 1982 and have been trying to leave ever since...every once in a while, I get to go back to the America I grew up in and served for but then, reality sets in and it's back to the family!
Move NORTH Tim, Nashua sucks but the south west corner of NH isn't THAT far from where you are now and we need all the right minded Ma. refugees we can get to off set the "Massholes".
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Move NORTH Tim, Nashua sucks but the south west corner of NH isn't THAT far from where you are now and we need all the right minded Ma. refugees we can get to off set the "Massholes".
I've planted that seed in the bosses head already Tom. May be a few more years but it's a definate possibility! Just have to work a little longer or commute a little further...I'm a ski bum so I should fit right in.....