The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on November 25, 2008, 08:51:55 PM
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I know this forum is dedicated to all-things firearms, particularly in self defense. My question to the community is what is recommend for self-defense using no weapons of any kind other than one's body? There is Krav Maga, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Kung Fu, etc., but would be recommended for a middle aged male that has never had any martial arts training of any kind? Just kick ass and stay alive is the main focus.
Maybe when I have practiced for a hundred years, maybe I can do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v325wdgoFH4
;D ;D ;D
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Go with the basics to begin with, find a dojo (martial arts school) that includes training in street defense, not competitive tai-kwan-do or the likes.
As for ju-jitsu or krav maga or any of the other fighting arts (the Asian arts usually do not end in -do, like ia-do (Japanese fencing) , but itsu like iatsu (real swords, real fighting, kind of), these are usually full contact training - not a bad idea, part of the skillset that Gabe Suarez uses in his force-on-force firearms training using training rounds instead of Airsoft or the like. If you're middle aged, it may be more than you can handle. From what I have seen, you will get hurt, and that is just in training!
IMO - go with a dojo that offers self-defense, often coupled with women's defense training, especially if they will do 1-on-1 training or a small group (2-4) instead of a classroom full of people.
My $.02.
Look at aikido too. O-Sensei in the 1920's successfully defended himself for 8 hours against a Japanese Naval officer with a sword - the real kind. O-Sensei never armed himself, but wore the other guy out.
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Krav Maga is by far the most practical system. Other systems have merits, but Krav is pretty much all-inclusive. I trained with the OSU Police Department for a while and the techniques were a hybridization of Judo, Chin Na, and Muay Thai. Lots of people will try to sell you Brazilian Jujitsu, I would be hesitant for self-defense. Yes, it's an effective competition art. However, there is no time that you ever want to be on the ground in a conflict. Additionally, Aikido has some interesting techniques for disarms, throws, and hold escapes, but I see it as supplementary at best.
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I would probably crap myself or puke all over the place..... either one would make a fine deterrent! ;D
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I would probably crap myself or puke all over the place..... either one would make a fine deterrent! ;D
Yes, if someone intended to EAT you...
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I would probably crap myself or puke all over the place..... either one would make a fine deterrent! ;D
Reason #2579 why I carry a gun ;D
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Reason #2579 why I carry a gun ;D
Don't want to belittle martial arts and the many benefits of the training, but I would need months (years) of dicipline before I was in a physical condition to learn how to protect myself ... So I cling to my hero, Indiana Jones, and how he handled someone with a sword and well trained with it ;)
Damn :-[ I wasn't going to make fun of this thread or your desire to better yourself ... Forgive me Jesus, and be with the starving Pigmies in New Guinea :-[
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Don't want to belittle martial arts and the many benefits of the training, but I would need months (years) of dicipline before I was in a physical condition to learn how to protect myself ... So I cling to my hero, Indiana Jones, and how he handled someone with a sword and well trained with it ;)
Damn :-[ I wasn't going to make fun of this thread or your desire to better yourself ... Forgive me Jesus, and be with the starving Pigmies in New Guinea :-[
video here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pMeooVB3olE&feature=related
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FWIW, I would encourage you to look for a Personal Defense Readiness coach in your area of visit Tony Blauer's website and look into his programs, seminars or DVDs.
PDR is a great place for anyone to start in unarmed combatives. I've been a PDR Coach/SPEAR Instructor since 2001/02. The program is very intuitive and based on bridging efficiently between the body's natural reaction to close quarters ambush and an effective response.
-RJP
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However, there is no time that you ever want to be on the ground in a conflict.
This may be true, however most fights end up in a clinch or on the ground and you must train for that eventuality. I don't ever want to be in a gunfight, but I still train for the possibility.
Jiu-Jitsu (and Sambo) excels at grappling, throws, ground fighting, and just as important, fighting your way back up to your feet should you end up on the ground.
I would start off with some Aikido. It will introduce you to the Martial Arts world and develope several key principals in learning how to manipulate the human body. Afterwards, I'd look into some type of Jiu-Jitsu or Mixed Martial Arts (MMA.)
Tony's SPEAR system is also another very good system to learn, provided you can find it in your area. Definitely worth attending a training seminar if you get the chance.
Oh yeah, Welcome Rob!
USSA-1
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Hey, man.. Thanks!
however most fights end up in a clinch or on the ground and you must train for that eventuality.
Can't argue with that logic at all. Some type of grappling experience/training is vital to being well rounded.
At the end of the day, just getting yourself into ANY program is going to be a start. If you're interested enough to be active in a forum like this, your BS meter should help you figure out quickly whether or not the school you've found is geared towards making you safer or making you look good. You're going to get a lot of opinions on which "style" is better. In my experience, you'll find a great deal of variety from school to school and teacher to teacher in terms of practicality.
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I studied an Okinawan style called " Shoto Kan" (sp ? ) until my Sensei asked me about hand guns for his wife.
After that I decided the old "kick 'em in the nuts, thumb in the eye" style was more appropriate for my level of dedication, and the amount of time available to devote to training.
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I was checking into martial arts in my area on the internet and noticed some sort of eastern spirituality involved with some of the disciplines, which I want to avoid. Are there any that are a straight fighting and exercise discipline without the eastern spiritual crap?
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I was checking into martial arts in my area on the internet and noticed some sort of eastern spirituality involved with some of the disciplines, which I want to avoid. Are there any that are a straight fighting and exercise discipline without the eastern spiritual crap?
I doubt it as the whole underpinning of the warrior is based on balance, spiritual as well as mental and physical.
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Back in the day I was one of those serious MA guys. I studied things that most people have never heard of and would crap themselves if they saw it. One of the things that most of the 'Hard' MA's people either don't know or won't tell you is that you MUST stay in training. 'Iron Hand' or 'Iron Body' training is probably the biggest example of this. I have seen people that will pound their fists in stacks of steel plates 1000 times a day, have people beat their bodies with bamboo sticks for an hour, all kinds of stuff. The bones and joints of these people are like iron, analysis of their bodies show 7x the bone density of the average human. I myself use to do a version of this (a considerably less punishing version) until I received a near crippling injury (a crippling one in terms of my training) and had to stop training pretty much completely for about 5 years. The result was arthritis in my hands, knees, back and elsewhere. You see all that pounding stimulates bone growth, while also preventing the build-up of calcium in the joints, this makes your bones hard and dense, but if you stop the pounding the bone growth continues and the destruction of the growth in the joints ceases. What all this means is that a significant portion of the 'Hard Arts' are going to be very hard on your body and failure to stay in training is going to result in problems later on. Don't go down this road unless you are willing to make a lifetime commitment, as in marriage a divorce is going to be painful.
As to the "Mystical" aspect of MA, much of this is a problem of translation as many of the concepts involved have literally no counterpart in Western philosophy. One of the best examples of this is the Zen concept of 'No-Mind". "No-Mind" is a literal translation of the Japanese term and it has been understood by many in the west (Ayn Rand was especially guilty of this) as meaning the 'absence of thought' or a failure to use the mind and depending on some mystical 'thing' to replace it. However, in the late 20th century Robert Anton Wilson and others began talking about "Internal Dialog'. Internal dialog is simply that voice in your head that you hear all the time, you talking to yourself. People do this all the time, you brain is constantly going "Did I shut off the lights?", "Is this idiot ever going to shut up?" "If he does this I should do that" and on and on. Even as you read this you are thinking about examples for and against my thesis or composing your reply or whatever. The greater part of Zen meditation is devoted to simply turning off this voice, of quieting the internal dialog, but because it uses flowery words such as "The mind like water" and such it becomes confusing to the analytical, materialistic (i.e. physical world) western mind. If the Zen concept had simply said "Quiet that yammering voice in your head" we would have understood it. When a Zen parable tells us "When eating, eat" we don't understand it, but if it said "When eating, don't think about anything else, don't even think about moving the fork to your mouth" it would have gone better. Mantras are even worse for Westerners because people mistake them for prayers because it seems a lot like reciting 'Hail Mary's', when in truth the purpose of the mantra is simply designed to drown out the internal dialog, to give your brain something to occupy itself with rather than letting it get distracted. In truth most shooters have been trained in a concept very much like "No-Mind", we call it muscle memory training, or conditioned reflex, we train to do things like drawing or reloading without thinking about it, in Zen it is called "action without thought". Of course, too many Western and even Eastern trainers wind up making these things MORE mystical and pseudo-religious because they themselves cannot translate the concepts properly. So don't get too bent out of shape about such things unless it really detracts from the physical aspects of your training.
As far as what to train in, I recommend what is now called "American Combatives", which is simply the old WWII style hand-to-hand combat, especially that developed by the OSS and taught by Rex Applegate. In fact, if you cannot find training in this locally, get a few friends together, buy a copy of "Kill or Get Killed" and Practice what it teaches and you will find yourself fully capable of handling probably 75% of the situations you are likely to face. In fact Krav Maga in nothing more than the old Fairbairn/Applegate system tarted up with a bunch of borrowed stuff, mostly from Tae Kwon Do, which (IMHO) makes it harder to train in (especially for the more mature and out of shape among us) and less useful overall. Sambo is even worse because of the emphasis on hard grappling (many instructors here are into Combat or Special Sambo which is a harder version big on grappling and striking). Judo and Jujitsu are ok, if you can put up with the physical requirements, and Tai Chi Chuan is actually an awesome form of martial art, IF you get a good instructor who understands it's martial aspect and you have 5 or 10 years to get good (I do recommend it as a style to practice just for it's health benefits and it DOES have them). I wouldn't recommend much else right now for anyone who doesn't plan to devote years to training.
If I had my life to do over I would have gotten into JKD and Silat, but I don't. Just remember, if you urinate in Jet Li's cornflakes you are gonna' catch an ass-whoopin', don't think a couple days a week at Master Kwan's McDojo is going to change that. Keep your goals realistic, use what has been proven to work in the street and on the battlefield (i.e. "American Combatives" or The Fairbairn/Applegate system) for the last almost 70 years and you will handle the majority of problems which can be handled by empty-hand fighting. Remember too, the first thing to fight with is your brain, mostly by recognizing and AVOIDING a fight. I've been called a coward (and similar, less polite things) more than my grand kids have been called to dinner and it never hurt as much as one ass-whoopin' would have.
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Welcome back Warhawk, good to hear from you again, Fullauto, your profile does not show your age, I'm 50 and don't want to get into fights anymore, but so what, the bad guys don't care. If the fight go's into fist and feet, something has already gone wrong, but same deal, it's what is happening and you have to deal with it. Go to some of your local fighting schools and see what they have to offer. Stand up fighting is one thing, lay down fighting is another, on the street, a thug is not going to fall down on you and try to get you to TAP OUT, your gonna get kicked and stomped, until they get what they want, your dead or they get tired. I would see if you have a local street fighting school or find some good dvd's to watch. If your in your 20's or 30's go ahead and train, if your 40+ and not in good shape, get a good idea and train some, but have a damn good attitude. Fighting from the ground is not that hard if all you are doing is trying to keep from getting hurt. Keep your back on the ground, your arms in, and your legs ready to spring out, if you have more than 1 attacker, it's gonna suck, if they want to hurt you, they will, if they just want to rob you, they will, if they want to kill you with something other than their body they will. If your just trying to survive until you can get your gun into play, you might!!
The first thing I was taught in MA, was just because I got knocked down, did not mean it was over, that boy kept kicking my ass until I did something to stop it, 2nd thing was, even if I won, I got hurt, bruises everyday. Fighting for fun is a lot different than fighting for your life, but the alternative to fighting for your life is obvious, NEVER GIVE UP AND NEVER SURRENDER.
By the way, Welcome Rob Pincus, I really enjoyed the Valhalla stuff on Shooting Gallery, and I'm glad you joined up in the new best defense.
I agree with you about Janis, this is really where his opinion would shine, that slap technique of his really intrigues me.
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WarHawke, you haven't been posting much lately. But I'll tell you, What your lacking in quantity you sure make up for with quality !
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I can highly recomend 15+ years of wrestling and judo.
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Warhawke, great post, obviously based on real world experience. I always wondered about the problems the guys had when they pounded their fists into trees and posts to build up their power. Explains why professional athletes are so prone to arthritis later in life after they retire.
One caution, though, t'ai chi ch'uan in this country is usually a form of calisthenics or dance based on t'ai chi - the martial arts. Made that mistake taking what I thought was a t'ai chi class and ended up in a tutu! ;D
Not really, but the New Age crap the instructor was spouting made me too ill to follow the class. I took the class because of an intro I had to real t'ai chi and found myself sweating profusely after 10 minutes - and I had not even thrown a punch or blocked a kick - just the slow movements.
Age and a post-ranch sedentary life have put me out of shape enough (a lot!) that MA's are out for the moment. I am working on getting back into shape, I would look at MA as a method to do that but I don't have a lot of MA options here in eastern ND either, just a couple of McDojo's
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Warhawke, great post, obviously based on real world experience. I always wondered about the problems the guys had when they pounded their fists into trees and posts to build up their power. Explains why professional athletes are so prone to arthritis later in life after they retire.
One caution, though, t'ai chi ch'uan in this country is usually a form of calisthenics or dance based on t'ai chi - the martial arts. Made that mistake taking what I thought was a t'ai chi class and ended up in a tutu! ;D
Not really, but the New Age crap the instructor was spouting made me too ill to follow the class. I took the class because of an intro I had to real t'ai chi and found myself sweating profusely after 10 minutes - and I had not even thrown a punch or blocked a kick - just the slow movements.
Age and a post-ranch sedentary life have put me out of shape enough (a lot!) that MA's are out for the moment. I am working on getting back into shape, I would look at MA as a method to do that but I don't have a lot of MA options here in eastern ND either, just a couple of McDojo's
McDojo's at least help with flexibility and a start toward general conditioning. To put it another way, if it's a choice between McDojo and nothing, as long as you don't take them to seriously about the fighting , they will probably be better than nothing.
Remember when the Fred Villari schools promised a Black belt in 6 months ?
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you Tom, McDojo's waste your money and time and give you bad habits that require more money, time and effort to remove. I do not tell people lightly to buy "Kill or Get Killed" and work from the text. I had some friends some years ago who were planning to join a rather large McDojo in the Detroit area, one that I knew well from some other friends of mine who were ripped off by those charlatans. Unfortunately there was little alternative at the time for them, so I told them I would train them but it would take some time before I could do so as I had numerous other commitments. I told them to get KoGK and practice until I could get the free time (Honestly, I did it mostly to keep them occupied until I could get free). I was amazed when, almost three months later I managed to pry out enough time to get training with them, I had very little to teach them! All I had to do was help them refine their techniques and give them pointers on training for scenarios. After two months working with them (one day a week for 2 or 3 hours a day, they worked a couple days a week together as well) they were good enough to make me work to take them down and by the end I had to use advanced techniques to do it at all (can't let the young pup's get to cocky don't ya know).
Self training, alone or with your buddies, out of a book is not the best way to handle things, just as going to the range with your buddies is no substitute for good shooting school training. However it is better than having some schmuck take your money to teach you the crap he learned when he studied with Steven Seagal at his local VCR. Learn as, how and what you can and work to improve over time. If you and your bud's can't afford to go to a good school, pool your money and send the best teacher among your group and have him come back and teach the rest. Go down to the local VFW or AL and get to know some of the old guys there. One of the people who taught me when I was young, was a friend of my dad's from the 82nd Airborne Assn. who was OSS in WWII, he was old and not the best physically but he imparted priceless lessons and training to one young teenager. Just because a guy doesn't wear funny cloths and call himself Sifu does not mean he has nothing to teach. Resources are all around us, we just have to recognize and use them.
P.S. No I didn't rough up the guys I trained just to show how big and bad I was. I only used advanced stuff to show it was out there and (as much as I could) how to deal with some of it. I will admit though, I sometimes needed the ego boost, those guys got pretty good.
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Warhawke, great post, obviously based on real world experience. I always wondered about the problems the guys had when they pounded their fists into trees and posts to build up their power.
Actually we used 12 to 8 inch squares of ice 2 to 3 inches thick, plywood squares about 12 inches square (built up till some guys were doing 2 or 3 layers of 1/2 inch), one time we got an old skeleton model (from the days when they used real bones!) and practiced breaking them. The biggest part was using buckets or bags of sand and gravel and struck them with fists, elbows, knees, ect. or rope covered boards (4x4's 2x12's etc.) either freestanding, swinging from ropes of nailed to the walls. We would sometimes do like that show "Human wrecking ballls", we would get permission to go into houses that were being torn down and tear them up with our bodies. Today I look back and wonder what we were thinking back then, I sometimes suspect we all had testosterone poisoning.
Well, as old, soft and broke-down as I am I still am more then most punks can chew, and I am starting to get back in shape. The job at the pellet mill did one good thing, it slapped me in the face with how bad I let myself go after my injury.
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If you are in the Orlando area try Traditional Martial Arts taught by Susan Jackson. They are ZDK affiliates and are the real deal. You can also look for a place at dojos.com. I started training at 50. While I am still overweight, old and slow, I'm more than most want to bite off. I also am one of the martial artists that can appreciate the use of a gun. Just because karate means empty hand, doesn't mean thats the way I'm gonna go. As far as what style, whatever you are comfortable with. I prefer to stay off the ground, you will get kicked. MMA is the current fav for many, but too much ground and pound, on the street that will get you beat bad. Thats my 2 cents, good luck
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I think the biggest worry of us on the forum is... how to get a gun away from a BG when he surprises us by drawing first. do we learn MA, or look for specialized training in disarming these guys. there are times when the BG is preventing us from pulling our own guns because they have surprised us,... so how do we get theirs away from them, or, pointed elsewhere..
do we 'act panicked' and use his complacency (as we hand them what we've got) as an oportunity to pull our own? of course, not all of us can or will be carrying when we run into this situation (if, god forbid, we DO run into this situation).
EVERY situation is DIFFERENT.. the best defense is being ready for the unexpected, and reacting as the situation demands.
so should this thread focus more on what those of us that are not in the best physical condition can do to protect ourselves and our families? I think this is what we SHOULD focus on considering the majority of us are over 30. except, of course, M'ette ;)
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I think the biggest worry of us on the forum is... how to get a gun away from a BG when he surprises us by drawing first. do we learn MA, or look for specialized training in disarming these guys. there are times when the BG is preventing us from pulling our own guns because they have surprised us,... so how do we get theirs away from them, or, pointed elsewhere..
do we 'act panicked' and use his complacency (as we hand them what we've got) as an oportunity to pull our own? of course, not all of us can or will be carrying when we run into this situation (if, god forbid, we DO run into this situation).
EVERY situation is DIFFERENT.. the best defense is being ready for the unexpected, and reacting as the situation demands.
so should this thread focus more on what those of us that are not in the best physical condition can do to protect ourselves and our families? I think this is what we SHOULD focus on considering the majority of us are over 30. except, of course, M'ette ;)
Very Zen = prepare for nothing so you are prepared for everything.
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If your finger gets between the hammer and frame, or behind the trigger the gun can not fire, if you grab the barrel you have leverage to keep it pointed away from you, are these things going to hurt ? Of course, but not as much as getting shot.
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If they already have thier gun drawn... not to much you can do. Yes you can grab the cylinder on a wheel gun, or froce the slide out of battery on an auto, but the chance of you getting shot is in the 99.99999% range if you do that. Deflecting the gun gives you a better chance, but the odds still suck.
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FWIW, I would encourage you to look for a Personal Defense Readiness coach in your area of visit Tony Blauer's website and look into his programs, seminars or DVDs.
PDR is a great place for anyone to start in unarmed combatives. I've been a PDR Coach/SPEAR Instructor since 2001/02. The program is very intuitive and based on bridging efficiently between the body's natural reaction to close quarters ambush and an effective response.
-RJP
Thanks to Rob and others who took the time to post on this thread. I really received some valuable insight. In today's DR podcast and on an old Shooting Gallery episode, Michael and Michael (I guess that's Michael squared ;) ) covered some of what I was thinking when I posted this topic.
My intuition tells me most of the violent encounters I could possibly encounter will be with those who are unarmed or they do not have a weapon drawn and ready to use; but I reserve the right to be wrong on that one.....
The points made about having realistic expectations are well taken. To me it is like other disciplines, it takes time to be really good at them. So for me, it seems like Krav Maga might be the solution for me.
I have no illusions. I do not have any expectations of ever having a PhD in "Billy Badassology". I am a 40 year old male and I want to get the most practical training I can find. I have read parts of Kill or Get Killed and thought it was good; I especially liked the parts about using full auto weapons. ;D I need to go buy the book and keep it in my library.
My last question is this: If I am to evaluate an instructor and/or school, what questions should I ask? Right now, I don't know what questions to ask other than, "Did you get your training watching 'Kung Fu Theatre'?" You can tell I grew up in the '80s.....
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Watch the training and talk to the participants, ( customers ), go more than one time, does it look like ritual, or does it look like training??? Does the training look like what you want?
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Ask to participate in a class to determine if it is a good fit---then evaluate the class on your bumps, bruises, strains, and soreness the next day! :o
But really, you need to feel the effectiveness in the techniques, not go through endless kata of useless motions.
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In the vein of Kill or get killed you may want to look at some DVDs from Carl Cestari or Jim Grover (combatives 1-2-3). Any of the WWII combatives is straight to the point and does not take years to learn. Yes, Krav is also great. Good for you for taking the extra step because not every solution is a gun solution. Especially at bad breath distance.
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They didn't teach us hand to hand combat when I was in the army so I have to learn on my own. Take a look at U.S. Army Field Manual for Combatives FM 3-25.150. It's free online if you don't want to buy it.
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They didn't teach us hand to hand combat when I was in the army so I have to learn on my own. Take a look at U.S. Army Field Manual for Combatives FM 3-25.150. It's free online if you don't want to buy it.
Thanks for the info, I think that will be a good starting point for me.