The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: patrick_ford on December 03, 2008, 05:04:04 PM
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I have a Glock 19. I love it. I wanted a larger .45 ACP. I did a lot of research and ended up getting a M&P .45 ACP. It shoots pretty good, seems to fit the hand well, but I am very hung up on the Glock 21SF idea. I guess I thought that the large grip frame would be an issue. I like shooting both.
Can anyone convince me that this weird nagging feeling to get a G21SF is just a waste of time?
Thanks,
Patrick
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I have a Glock 19. I love it. I wanted a larger .45 ACP. I did a lot of research and ended up getting a M&P .45 ACP. It shoots pretty good, seems to fit the hand well, but I am very hung up on the Glock 21SF idea. I guess I thought that the large grip frame would be an issue. I like shooting both.
Can anyone convince me that this weird nagging feeling to get a G21SF is just a waste of time?
Thanks,
Patrick
NOPE! You should get another new gun! ;D
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You can never have enough guns...especially in .45 ACP
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Patrick as much as I love Glocks, unless your patient and a gambling man, I'd stick with the M&P strictly on the magazine issue, or availability there of. Even if you sell the one, mags are hard to come by, for Glocks, with no sure hope in the near future.
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m25operator,
I just bought a M&P9 and am planning a 45. S&W has a rebate program, and I chose the two extra mags. However, when I went online to order a couple more (magazines are like ammo - you can never have too many) I see they are out, and MidwayUSA lists them as out of stock and not ok to back order.
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For me, the 21SF doesn't feel any good at all, in other words I wouldn't have one. That is only my opinion. But as Haz said buy a new gun! And as MB said on his Podcast..."Buy all the Highcaps you can find!" I think they will be great barter/trade material in the not too distant future.
JMHO
Richard
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I have a Glock 19. I love it. I wanted a larger .45 ACP. I did a lot of research and ended up getting a M&P .45 ACP. It shoots pretty good, seems to fit the hand well, but I am very hung up on the Glock 21SF idea. I guess I thought that the large grip frame would be an issue. I like shooting both.
Can anyone convince me that this weird nagging feeling to get a G21SF is just a waste of time?
Thanks,
Patrick
Why the HECK would we do a terrible thing like that, You seem like a nice enough guy, get the Glock as well, don't forget Para either The "Super Hog " Long slide with 14 rounds of .45 ;D
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I have a couple of 1911's and an M&P in 45 and another M&P in 9MM. One of the gunsmith's at USSA gave me a great trigger in both of them...set at 4.5 lbs...M&P is known for having the ability to slick the trigger up. So..trigger is a consideration.
There are three grip profiles to fit your hand better in an M&P. This grip profile allows a Crimson Trace addition that is a lot slicker than you can get in a Glock.
The same gunsmith told me because of the machining that everything is exactly the same part wise...so if you disassemble several M&P's and throw them in a box and shake them they will come back together the same way the went to pieces...if you know what I mean.
I've put 500 or so 45 rounds down range and the same amount of 9MM rounds with no failures. I've seen a lot of M&P's run at USSA and I haven't noticed a failure yet. The M&P's are a bit less expensive than Glocks and most 1911's...save the money buy ammo or another gun.
Now...if on I could get such a trigger in an SR-9......
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I dont think I have wrote about my love affair with the 21SF on here. I think I have only manifested it in my own head. I think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And would own one right now if food for the next month wasnt so damn important.
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I dont think I have wrote about my love affair with the 21SF on here. I think I have only manifested it in my own head. I think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And would own one right now if food for the next month wasnt so damn important.
I feel that way about the 30SF
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M58, like I said, right now it's not what we want, it's what we need, support every firearm you currently have and not go experimenting, unless you are one of the fortunate few. If you don't have a good pistol, then by all means, get one and the magazines to support it, but it may not be easy. Pre order if you can, but that is not a guarantee. It is close to the vest time.
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M58, like I said, right now it's not what we want, it's what we need, support every firearm you currently have and not go experimenting, unless you are one of the fortunate few. If you don't have a good pistol, then by all means, get one and the magazines to support it, but it may not be easy. Pre order if you can, but that is not a guarantee. It is close to the vest time.
Sage advice.
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Get an M&P45c. I like mine a lot.
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Why don't you buy both and give us a report? ......... ::) .. both seems like good weapons. I've heard that M&P's in .45 are more accurate than other M&P's in 9mm,.40, etc. So, maybe the M&P wins on that. I know for a fact that I've shot several M&P's vs. several Glocks in 9mm and .40 S&W..and while both are good...Glock wins in the accuarcy department.. not just with me..but with several other experienced shooters too. That's honeslty the only real criticism I have of the M&P. They are almost as good as Glock...in my opinion..generally speaking :). Honestly, I think either would be good guns. Get whichever you like.. your buying.. ;)
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Each pistol will give good service. The 21SF is taking the place of many G22s in LE service. Many users of the standard G21 are adding/trading to the 21SF.
The M&P is probably THE best single action pistol in .45 ACP. It should be more durable and long lived then most all 1911s, and need less work to be completely reliable. Probably fine right out of the box for most folks, but there is a lot of interest in cleaning up the trigger on the M&P, as seen in the number of gunsmiths offering such services.
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The M&P is a DAO (double action only) striker fired action, like the GLock. The SA XD is a single action (SAO?) striker fired action.
Lots of different definitions of all of the above, I'm just using the official fed versions (BATF/NIJ/FBI, etc) as used for import and contract purposes. Pulling the trigger performs the single action of releasing a fully cocked striker (XD), the double action (only) of fully cocking and releasing a partially cocked striker (Glock/M&P).
Some (DHS) skip the whole action definition fandango and just ask for a "consistent trigger pull" for first and subsequent shots, don't care how it's done.
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The M&P is a DAO (double action only) striker fired action, like the GLock.
Having had an M&P apart on numerous occasions and circumstances, I'd beg to differ.
Even S&W only started calling it that in the last couple years, per their catalog. The initial release of promotional documentation avoided any mention of such, including the first catalogs. The 2007 begin the advertising as such, with 2008 being even more so. The past and present absence of functional cutaways for the M&P beg the question as well. At their first SHOT promotion, factory staff was not to use the phrase, but didn't correct gun writers and other tire kickers who did.
Physical examination of the mechanism does not support your claim. Unless we are intent on changing definitions, then it depends on what the meaning of "is" really is.
Is it important? Not to most shooters and gun owners. It is important to folks who write bid specifications for purchasing, for risk management evaluations and end users who may be affected by the chicanery of those seeking to fool purchasing/approval entities in government.
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Having had an M&P apart on numerous occasions and circumstances, I'd beg to differ.
Even S&W only started calling it that in the last couple years, per their catalog. The initial release of promotional documentation avoided any mention of such, including the first catalogs. The 2007 begin the advertising as such, with 2008 being even more so. The past and present absence of functional cutaways for the M&P beg the question as well. At their first SHOT promotion, factory staff was not to use the phrase, but didn't correct gun writers and other tire kickers who did.
Physical examination of the mechanism does not support your claim. Unless we are intent on changing definitions, then it depends on what the meaning of "is" really is.
Is it important? Not to most shooters and gun owners. It is important to folks who write bid specifications for purchasing, for risk management evaluations and end users who may be affected by the chicanery of those seeking to fool purchasing/approval entities in government.
Depends on how you define each, we have had several threads (maybe some one can link one ? ) that discussed the issue in great and exacting and excruciating detail.
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I'll differ w your differing. But I know what ya mean, and why. I can see why they might avoid SA, and like DAO as a label.
I asked S&W LE reps in 2005 and again in 2007 if it was SA or DAO and was told it was DAO as per the reasons I gave above. I'll give 'em a call Monday and see what they say (and why) for 2009. You may be right, but it may not matter as much as it used to?
SA? DA/SA? SAO? DAO? May not matter as much as it used to for contracts, risk mgt, et, as it still does for internet arguing?
Didn't matter as much for the largest US LE pistol contract ever (2004 DHS). I think the DHS approach nicely side steps the whole action definition issue; it's a consistent trigger pull for the first and subsequent shots, and how that is accomplished is irrelevant to them if it meets all the other performance and safety specs:
3.2 Operation: The pistol shall be an action that provides smooth and consistent trigger pull for the first shot and all consecutive shots.
3.3.2 Trigger Pull: The pistol shall have an average minimum of 5 pounds and maximum of 12 pounds with an optimal average trigger pull of 6—8 pounds min/max. A pistol’s trigger pull shall not vary by more than +/-0.5lbs from it’s average. The trigger pull shall be consistent in weight of pull for the first and all subsequent shots.
3.11 Drop Safety and Function: The pistols shall not accidentally discharge, or sustain a degradation of function or safety, when dropped six (6) times from a height of 48 inches (NIJ Standard) onto a solid slab of concrete with a full magazine and one round in the chamber. The pistol shall operate safely and require no further action by the operator to function after completing the drop test (i.e. the operator should not have to replace the magazine in the pistol).
I like the M&P action whatever it is/isn't, and any specs I write would reflect that. ;)
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Here we go ::) .......
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In 2005 S&W considered the M&P DAO. In 2007 they considered it DAO. In 2009, they still consider it DAO, for the same reasons they did in '05 and '07. From Tom Gordon, S&W US Government Sales and Administration/Technical and Sales Support Mgr:
"We consider this DAO because there is more striker mov,mt to the rear, albeit small."
So the trigger performs the double action of 1) fully cocking the partially cocked striker and then 2) releasing the now fully cocked striker. Or at least S&W is still saying it does.
From NIJ/NLECTC:
Double action: A mode of operation that permits a single pull of the trigger to cock and fire the pistol.
(See single action and striker fire action.)
Single action: A mode of operation that uses the trigger to fire the pistol only. (See double action.)
Striker fire action: A pistol design that employs an internal striker mechanism to detonate the primer. In operation, the pistol is normally in a partially cocked condition. Pulling the trigger completes cocking the action and then releases the striker mechanism to fire the pistol.
So is it a SA SFA like the XD, or a DA SFA like the Glock? Or is SFA off by itself and SA/DA/DAO do not apply and we are spinning our wheels again?
What works for S&W and the feds works for me. What works for you? ;)
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Any will do.
I don't view the comments of any company rep. as being unbiased. In my area, the S&W rep is persona non grata for cause.
I'd rely on the documentation issued by the company.
The M&P is a fine pistol and makes many owners very happy. I started shooting one in 2005 and went through a variety of problems, all quickly fixed by the factory.
I do take issue with manufacturers that step outside the normal bounds of competitive process when their product fails to pass the specifications outlined in the request. When this results in a cancellation of the process, no new guns for the end user, then I have an issue with that company. So it is important to be honest and above board, play by the rules and accept that the end user has a requirement as outlined in the required specifications. Anything less is unethical.
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I had the M&P and shot it extensively for the first time last Christmas with my brother in law. He liked it alot and picked one up for himself. It shot to point of aim and we had no failures. We both liked the configurable grip. Personally, I thought accuracy was lacking and the reciprocation of the slide seemed more noticeable, different. I did not like the release tab in the grip for disassembly and I did not like that they recommended not using +P ammo. Granted for the .45 standard loadings are more than adequate. I picked up the 21SF when I unloaded the Smith. I can't stand the trigger bar so I do what I do with all my glocks... stick a toothpick in that little hole and gently smooth it to match the trigger face. I like that the mag springs are guaranteed to not take a set so I have more than 2. I like the low bore axis and the accuracy at 1 to 1 1/2" at 25 yards is more than twice as good as the M&P. It is a fun gun to shoot. I like the ambi mag release. It is so natural I have to remind myself not to switch to the forefinger. I tried the solid metal recoil spring assembly and saw no difference so I went back to stock. Trijicons are next as well as the extended slide release though I never use it. I really like Null's shoulder holster so I'm working with that. The changes to the grip (and I'm sure they changed the grip angle) are really very nice. It's a better gun than it's parent.
As for the 30sf I have to say that the m30 and m29 point so naturally for me I can't imagine I'd like the change. One of these days I might handle one but now I'm waiting for the 20SF.
The 21SF is a gun I would buy again... maybe I'll get two of them, we'll see.