The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Fatman on December 06, 2008, 09:31:53 AM
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DPMS's printed instruction say to clean the chamber and bore after every shot for 25 shots, every 10th round up to 100 rounds, to achieve best results for accuracy.
It's a giving I'm following the manufacture's recommendation, so my question is this: bore snaking good enough, or should I actually get in there with a brush?
I'm new to this, and believe the only stupid question is one that goes unasked - so I'm asking. ;D
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DPMS's printed instruction say to clean the chamber and bore after every shot for 25 shots, every 10th round up to 100 rounds, to achieve best results for accuracy.
It's a giving I'm following the manufacture's recommendation, so my question is this: bore snaking good enough, or should I actually get in there with a brush?
I'm new to this, and believe the only stupid question is one that goes unasked - so I'm asking. ;D
I use a brush on my AR's. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that boresnakes are good for lever actions and for touch up between thorough cleanings. Maybe it's the barrels I have on my AR's...but the AR seems to be much dirtier (gas system?) than bolt actions, etc., and require more effort and soak time to get clean.
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I'd recommend the following:
JP Bore guide
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=115057
Carbon cleaning rod
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=342014
I use tipton brushes and jags and good old Hoppe's #9. (full strokes by the way with the brush. One push all the way to exit the barrel. Then pull it all the way back. With the patches and using a jag, you get one pass thru the barrel to exit and drop it on the table by the muzzle. Keep using new wet patches for these passes until clean. Then shoot next shot. The most important thing is to not screw up the crown of the muzzle in any way.)
By the way, you could also take a look at Tubbs ammo for break in to speed things up.
www.davidtubb.com
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=380492
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I use a brush on my AR's. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that boresnakes are good for lever actions and for touch up between thorough cleanings. Maybe it's the barrels I have on my AR's...but the AR seems to be much dirtier (gas system?) than bolt actions, etc., and require more effort and soak time to get clean.
Rastus, Yes, the reason your AR seems dirtier is because the "gas impingement" operating system blows hot muzzle gasses back into the action much like " gas Blow back" (it vents into that little tube at the top of the bolt carrier).
Gas piston systems on replacement uppers run cleaner, AS I UNDERSTAND IT (help me out here guy's/gal )because the gasses cool while pushing the piston back and so do not bake themselves on to the parts.
DPMS's printed instruction say to clean the chamber and bore after every shot for 25 shots, every 10th round up to 100 rounds, to achieve best results for accuracy.
It's a giving I'm following the manufacture's recommendation, so my question is this: bore snaking good enough, or should I actually get in there with a brush?
I'm new to this, and believe the only stupid question is one that goes unasked - so I'm asking. ;D
To get back to the OP, I would use a brush, again this is only my understanding of it and could be wrong, (heaven forbid ! ;D ) But what you are doing with the "break in " period is smoothing and more or less honing the inside of the barrel. Machining raises burrs and small flakes of metal, it also disrupts the way the metal molecules lay in relation to each other, the "Break in " process brushes them into line and smooths out the minor irregularities caused by the force of being machined.
An example of this , when I used to do "Sheet metal Fabrication" all our aluminum parts were run through a flat sander before forming, some alloys if run parallel to the bend line would crack, as the molecules were separated, but if sanded at 90 degrees to the bend there was no problem as each molecule would bend and no stress was placed between them.
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An example of this , when I used to do "Sheet metal Fabrication" all our aluminum parts were run through a flat sander before forming, some alloys if run parallel to the bend line would crack, as the molecules were separated, but if sanded at 90 degrees to the bend there was no problem as each molecule would bend and no stress was placed between them.
Exactly right, even on the bias would help in the forming process.
As for most AR barrels, are they not chromium lined as well?
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So basically half-field strip, clean with brush/cleaner, reassemble, shoot, repeat til numb. My range will love me! ;D
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So basically half-field strip, clean with brush/cleaner, reassemble, shoot, repeat til numb. My range will love me! ;D
No, Lock back the bolt and punch the bore if you use a muzzle protector.
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Exactly right, even on the bias would help in the forming process.
As for most AR barrels, are they not chromium lined as well?
Yes, that's what we did with parts with bends on several sides like boxes.
Many AR barrels are chrome lined, but not all.
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Yes, that's what we did with parts with bends on several sides like boxes.
We do a lot of forming on inconel, hastalloy and other Haynes high temp alloys. They can be real hinky when you bend against the grain as well. At 90 to 300 bucks a pound, you don't want to make things worse. Lots of variables to conisder...
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I pretty much do it the way 1776 outlined except I throw in a few passes with JB Bore cleaner and Bore Bright on a cotton patch wrapped around a brush for a tight fit. Then follow with Hoppe's.
I do it 1 shot and clean, for 10 shots.
Then 2 shots and clean, for 10 shots.
Then 5 shots and clean, for 20 shots.
Tedious, but has worked for me.
Takes up 2 boxes of ammo.
As a side note on the aluminum forming, aluminum will harden (temper) on it's own over time (a few weeks). We used to heat treat (rapid aging) our alloys in ovens. For example, alloy 6063-T6 was aircraft grade soft alloy that was heated to 350 degrees for 6 hours. After aging, the extruded aluminum would crack if bent or formed against the extrusion grain. If we needed to form it for a home-made part, we just heated it up with a rosebud torch to around 400 degrees and let it slowly cool. Then we could shape it any way we needed to. Just like annealing and tempering steel, just at lower temps.
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I never had to form Inconel , but machining it's a pain, it uses up a lot of tools.
As for T - 6 we just never used it on any thing but flat parts, usually had an alloy call out on the print, same as in machining.
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I'd recommend the following:
JP Bore guide
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=115057
Carbon cleaning rod
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=342014
I use tipton brushes and jags and good old Hoppe's #9. (full strokes by the way with the brush. One push all the way to exit the barrel. Then pull it all the way back. With the patches and using a jag, you get one pass thru the barrel to exit and drop it on the table by the muzzle. Keep using new wet patches for these passes until clean. Then shoot next shot. The most important thing is to not screw up the crown of the muzzle in any way.)
By the way, you could also take a look at Tubbs ammo for break in to speed things up.
www.davidtubb.com
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=380492
Cool. Thanks. Tubbs seems to be a pretty good way to go. Another 70 smackers going bye-bye, lol
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Fatman
I have to admit to being a guy who had the old man drill into my head over and over again "use the best tools", "do it right or don't do it at all", "buy quality buy quality". If you were exposed to this crap for the better part of 20 years you would turn out like me. So I plead to being a total nut case when it comes to stuff like this.
The JP bore guide is a really fine piece of machining. And once you start working on your AR you will see why you want a bore guide in cleaning. One piece carbon fiber cleaning rods seem to be state of the art in rods. Jags are better than the eye loop thingys. I go to a gunshow and there is a guy pitching Butchs Bore Shine. Yep, I says, GIVE ME A QUART ! I went back to Hoppes when I opened the bottle and used some. DAMM IT NEARLY PEALED MY SHOE POLISH OFF ! That stuff is powerful. If I had more guts I might use it. There is though lots of great cleaning product out there. I bought and used the Tubbs system on my competition AR. I can understand the concept (nearly like hand lapping) and I will swear that I could feel the bore becoming smoother while I pushed the cleaning patches thru the barrel ! Yup its expensive but the way I view it is my kids don't really need to eat 3 meals a day anyway !
Here is what cinched the deal for me. Lilja builds some of the best barrels in the world. Take a look at the video on their home page of a new Remington 700 barrel vs a Lilja hand lapped barrel. Nothing like pictures to scare me into spending more money !!!
http://www.riflebarrels.com/
Good luck on the break in and tell us how she shoots...
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Now that was a very informative video. Makes me want to invest in a bore scope. I'm sending this on to some friends in the long range business.
Here is some more info on barrels from Shilen:
Can I use Moly coated bullets to break-in my barrel?
Some bullet and barrel makers say that the best way to break in a barrel that is to be used with moly bullets is to break it in with moly coated bullets. Others say to use uncoated bullets to break the barrel in, then start using coated bullets. We hear from a tremendous amount of top-notch shooters and gunsmiths and they all have their own opinions on this subject (as you already know). In compiling this wealth of information, we have come to this conclusion: There is no BEST way. Some barrels seem to break-in very quickly with coated bullets. Some seem to take longer. We've had shooters tell us that if a barrel didn't seem to want to really "come-in" with coated bullets, a few uncoated bullets down the barrel actually helped the initial break-in. Then they went back to the coated bullets with good results. Our recommendation is to load and tune the rifle with jacketed, uncoated bullets. Then try the moly coated ones.
Back to top.
How should I break-in my new Shilen barrel?
Break-in procedures are as diverse as cleaning techniques. Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don't think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal. All our stainless steel barrels have been hand lapped as part of their production, as well as any chrome moly barrel we install. Hand lapping a barrel polishes the interior of the barrel and eliminates sharp edges or burrs that could cause jacket deformity. This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning.
Here is our standard recommendation: Clean after each shot for the first 5 shots. The remainder of the break-in is to clean every 5 shots for the next 50 shots. During this time, don't just shoot bullets down the barrel during this 50 shot procedure. This is a great time to begin load development. Zero the scope over the first 5 shots, and start shooting for accuracy with 5-shot groups for the next 50 shots. Same thing applies to fire forming cases for improved or wildcat cartridges. Just firing rounds down a barrel to form brass without any regard to their accuracy is a mistake. It is a waste of time and barrel life.
Back to top.
How do I clean my new Shilen barrel?
As with break-in and using coated bullets, you will find many diverse opinions on this subject.
EQUIPMENT: Cleaning Rods: Use a good quality coated cleaning rod with a rotating handle. The rotating handle allows the brush or patch to follow the lands and grooves. A non rotating handle forces the brush bristles to jump over the lands and grooves instead of following them.
BRUSHES: Use a good brass or bronze brush with a looped end. Do not use a brush with a sharp, pointed end.
SOLVENTS:
Every shooting product manufacturer has their own miracle solvent, and most do the job as advertised.
BORE GUIDES: Highly recommended!
PATCHES: Flannel or cotton patches work the best. Either trim or fold your patch to insure that it will fit snugly into the bore, but not so tightly you have to force it. Forcing a patch causes the rod to flex inside the bore of the rifle. If you are using a coated rod, this usually won't hurt anything, but the uncoated stainless steel rods that some shooters use can batter against the inside of the bore and damage rifling.
PROCEDURE: Once again, many different procedures abound. All accomplish basically the same thing. Here's ours: With the bore guide and the brass brush on the cleaning rod, apply the solvent to the brush by dipping it in the bottle or squirting a few drops on the brush. Slide the bore guide up over the brush and insert the bore guide into the chamber with a twisting motion. Push the brush through the barrel until it comes out the end of the muzzle. Now pull the brush back into the chamber guide. This is one "cycle". Make one cycle for each bullet fired, then apply more solvent to the brush and repeat this procedure. Now, fold or cut the patch for a snug, not tight, fit. Push the the first patch all the way through the bore and out the muzzle. As you draw the rod back, the patch should fall off. Put on another patch and push it towards the muzzle until you can feel it touch your finger placed over the muzzle. Then draw the patch back to the chamber and push it once more out the end of the muzzle so that it drops off. Repeat this with one more patch and you are finished. If you are through shooting for the day, lightly wet a patch with a light viscosity machine oil to prevent or retard rust. Push this patch through the bore. Let it drop out the muzzle, and you are done.
Back to top.
How clean is clean?
We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way. Picture a car's fender. If the fender has a small dent in it, then professional application of body putty fills the dent. When painted over, the dent becomes unnoticeable, and the surface of the fender is smooth and consistent. The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove. I have a 7x08 Improved that shoots the same 1/2" MOA after 15 minutes of cleaning or 3 hours of scrubbing and de-coppering. Personally, I prefer shooting to cleaning. The gist of this is to set a regular cleaning regimen and stay with it. If the accuracy of the rifle is acceptable with a 15 min. cleaning, why clean longer? I would much rather have people admiring the groups I shot than marveling at how clean my barrel looks on the inside.
http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question10
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Fatman
I have to admit to being a guy who had the old man drill into my head over and over again "use the best tools", "do it right or don't do it at all", "buy quality buy quality". If you were exposed to this crap for the better part of 20 years you would turn out like me. So I plead to being a total nut case when it comes to stuff like this.
The JP bore guide is a really fine piece of machining. And once you start working on your AR you will see why you want a bore guide in cleaning. One piece carbon fiber cleaning rods seem to be state of the art in rods. Jags are better than the eye loop thingys. I go to a gunshow and there is a guy pitching Butchs Bore Shine. Yep, I says, GIVE ME A QUART ! I went back to Hoppes when I opened the bottle and used some. DAMM IT NEARLY PEALED MY SHOE POLISH OFF ! That stuff is powerful. If I had more guts I might use it. There is though lots of great cleaning product out there. I bought and used the Tubbs system on my competition AR. I can understand the concept (nearly like hand lapping) and I will swear that I could feel the bore becoming smoother while I pushed the cleaning patches thru the barrel ! Yup its expensive but the way I view it is my kids don't really need to eat 3 meals a day anyway !
Here is what cinched the deal for me. Lilja builds some of the best barrels in the world. Take a look at the video on their home page of a new Remington 700 barrel vs a Lilja hand lapped barrel. Nothing like pictures to scare me into spending more money !!!
http://www.riflebarrels.com/
Good luck on the break in and tell us how she shoots...
Yeah, I'm in the same boat with tools. I've found over the years properly caring for anything pays off in the long run. I'm used to cleaning pistols, my rods are carbon, and I use jags. The loop is definitely not effective. Years ago I found what I arguably consider the best patches I'd ever used - U.S. Arsenal patches. They have a ribs embossed into a cotton weave patch, and worked quickly and effectively. Gotta search and see if they have a smaller diameter more suitable for .223 as opposed to the 2" ones I have for the .45s .
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Barrel break-in is BS. Period.
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Yeah, I'm in the same boat with tools. I've found over the years properly caring for anything pays off in the long run. I'm used to cleaning pistols, my rods are carbon, and I use jags. The loop is definitely not effective. Years ago I found what I arguably consider the best patches I'd ever used - U.S. Arsenal patches. They have a ribs embossed into a cotton weave patch, and worked quickly and effectively. Gotta search and see if they have a smaller diameter more suitable for .223 as opposed to the 2" ones I have for the .45s .
Got to agree, The "old Man" always taught me that paying top dollar for the best tool was cheaper in the long run than paying bargain prices for cheap ones over and over. As for your parents etc. doesn't it just amaze you that the older you get, the smarter they get ;D
Barrel break-in is BS. Period.
Not really. It depends on what you want to use the rifle for. Hunting , plinking etc. no need to break it in as that will happen with time, but if you want to shoot teeny tiny little groups or real long range it's a must.
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On a chrome-lined bore I think any break-in is BS. Honing or Tubb's FinalFinish Bore Conditioning System may help but I doubt anything else will. As for the direct impingement system, it makes the action dirtier but not the bore as far as I can see.
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On a chrome-lined bore I think any break-in is BS. Honing or Tubb's FinalFinish Bore Conditioning System may help but I doubt anything else will. As for the direct impingement system, it makes the action dirtier but not the bore as far as I can see.
Yes, but the action is where all the little fiddly parts are that make it a pain to clean.
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Yes, but the action is where all the little fiddly parts are that make it a pain to clean.
Is that a technical term? ;)
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Yes ;D
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Yes, but the action is where all the little fiddly parts are that make it a pain to clean.
Crap. I bought a rifle with fiddly parts. My kids have sippy cups with fiddly parts. Are they interchangable?
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I bought a new rifle from Fulton Armory with a Douglas barrel. They told me not to bother with "break in" because the barrels were hand lapped already. They also said that the break in routine does more damage than good. I choose to believe them.
All this BS about breaking in a barrel is relatively recent.
I have also come to believe that you can clean too much. As a result I have cut down on my cleaning routine, but I still make sure my semi-automatics are not run dry -- unless it is very cold when the oil may gum up. Then it is time for graphite. But I find at my age I no longer need to stock graphite because I don't go out if it is too cold. I grew up in Michigan and learned the lesson the hard way about oil or grease creating stoppages in the cold. My 1903A3 even froze up in the cold one day and wouldn't shoot until I cleaned out the gunk in the bolt!
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I bought a new rifle from Fulton Armory with a Douglas barrel. They told me not to bother with "break in" because the barrels were hand lapped already. They also said that the break in routine does more damage than good. I choose to believe them.
All this BS about breaking in a barrel is relatively recent.
I have also come to believe that you can clean too much. As a result I have cut down on my cleaning routine, but I still make sure my semi-automatics are not run dry -- unless it is very cold when the oil may gum up. Then it is time for graphite. But I find at my age I no longer need to stock graphite because I don't go out if it is too cold. I grew up in Michigan and learned the lesson the hard way about oil or grease creating stoppages in the cold. My 1903A3 even froze up in the cold one day and wouldn't shoot until I cleaned out the gunk in the bolt!
Many agree here too.
As posted earlier from Shilen Barrels:
How clean is clean?
We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way. Picture a car's fender. If the fender has a small dent in it, then professional application of body putty fills the dent. When painted over, the dent becomes unnoticeable, and the surface of the fender is smooth and consistent. The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove. I have a 7x08 Improved that shoots the same 1/2" MOA after 15 minutes of cleaning or 3 hours of scrubbing and de-coppering. Personally, I prefer shooting to cleaning. The gist of this is to set a regular cleaning regimen and stay with it. If the accuracy of the rifle is acceptable with a 15 min. cleaning, why clean longer? I would much rather have people admiring the groups I shot than marveling at how clean my barrel looks on the inside.
http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question10
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Not to nit pick, but I will....The discussion is not about cleaning a new barrel. It is about how to treat a new barrel to optimize its accuracy. Shilen, Douglas, Lilja all conceed that hand lapping a barrel makes it better. They charge more for it cause it takes time and effort. If you have purchased a hand lapped barrel then your done. Get a box of ammo and shoot a little and clean a little. Your ready to enjoy an accurate shooter.
But if you have purchased a "regular or normal" barrel then you can either try hand lapping yourself (too much trouble) or fire lapping it. That's all. Instead of one box of ammo try two boxes for "break in". Then go about enjoying an accurate shooter.
Cleaning the barrel during its lifetime is a different issue I argue.
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;) My doctor said that his cousin, who is a gunsmith, said that you can't do better than Remington 700 barrels. Seems his cousin takes all the Remington take off barrels that result when some sport has to have a big name barrel and builds fantastically accurate sporters using the take off Remington barrels. :-\ The doc says he and his boys have six of the rifles his cousin built and they are all at the very least MOA off the bench.
I will admit that my Remington 700LH is more accurate than my favorite Ruger No. 1. But I still hunt with the No. 1. And I will say that I have no complaints at all about my Remington M788LH -- it is a sweet shooter -- way better than MOA. Nether of the Remingtons nor the Ruger enjoyed being broken in by the current break in fads. They are all older than that myth. ;)
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Not to nit pick, but I will....The discussion is not about cleaning a new barrel. It is about how to treat a new barrel to optimize its accuracy. Shilen, Douglas, Lilja all conceed that hand lapping a barrel makes it better. They charge more for it cause it takes time and effort. If you have purchased a hand lapped barrel then your done. Get a box of ammo and shoot a little and clean a little. Your ready to enjoy an accurate shooter.
But if you have purchased a "regular or normal" barrel then you can either try hand lapping yourself (too much trouble) or fire lapping it. That's all. Instead of one box of ammo try two boxes for "break in". Then go about enjoying an accurate shooter.
Cleaning the barrel during its lifetime is a different issue I argue.
No, it's not being nit picky, to an extent, but cleaning is part of the 'break in' process cycle, if you bother with such at all.
The point was that if you are going to even bother with break in at all, then cleaning too often (after) is detrimental to the accuracy that was caused by the break-in in the first place.
These posts do tend to wobble, don't they. ;D
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Actually Reb, the discussion and pointers on cleaning the rifle are helpful also. The part about over cleaning the barrel effecting initial accuracy makes sense. jumbofrank's point about breaking in (or not) a chromed barrel is also interesting. My barrel is not chromed, none in stock. Anyway, jf got me thinking - would the chroming effectively smooth the barrel, or would it just chrome the machining rings, imperfections, etc. I would imagine it would fix some of the minor issues, but some of the stuff i saw on the Lilja vid would most likely just get a layer of chrome, making for shiny machine marks and digs.
Putting the Tubbs finishing rounds (first two grit sets) down a chrome barrel seems to be a good way to scrape the chrome off.
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Fatman here goes a wobble.....
I wouldn't go for a chrome barrel in an AR. Why you say? .... cause
Actually here is a clip from an AR barrel site (worth taking a look at his site). Neither of us is going to war with these rifles. So with regard to having an accurate rifle here is this guys point on chrome lined barrels and chambers....(makes sense to me :) )
>Is it chrome-lined?
No, Chrome lined barrels are only available when a company mass produces them. The chrome needs to be applied after the chamber work is done. This requires special barrel blanks and chamber reamers, made larger than spec and then plated back down to spec size. It would be cost prohibitive to do custom barrels with chrome lining. Any barrel that is chrome lined is certainly not a match grade barrel. It is not possible to put the attention into the chamber details that you need for extreme accuracy when you are mass producing barrels.
http://www.ar15barrels.com/faq.shtml
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Fatman here goes a wobble.....
Neither None of us is going to war with these rifles.
Can you yell that loud enough for the Brady Bunch and the rest of the hysterical left to hear? ;D
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Can you yell that loud enough for the Brady Bunch and the rest of the hysterical left to hear? ;D
They've been too deaf for too long........... ;)