The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: wtr100 on December 11, 2008, 08:12:42 AM
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M14/M1A: Clunky, heavy, and overpowered. Essentially a Garand tarted up with a removable magazine, in a half-baked attempt to adapt a 19th century rifle design philosophy to the mid-20th century. Most often named as favorite infantry rifle by people who never had to hump a 10-pound wood-stocked rifle with lots of sharp protrusions and no collapsible anything on a three day exercise, or try to make it through a firefight with the standard battle load of five 20-round magazines.
AK-47: Crude and inaccurate bullet thrower designed by and for illiterate peasants. Chambered in a caliber that manages to cut the ballistics of a proper .30-caliber battle rifle in half without passing on any weight savings to the grunt. Ergonomics only suitable for Russian midgets. Archaic cable trigger spring, crummy sights, no sight radius to speak of, no bolt hold-open device, and a clumsy safety. Favorite infantry rifle of Middle Eastern goat herders, guys named Abdullah, and backwoods militia types who like the fact that it shoots cheap ammo and has ballistics like their familiar .30-30.
H&K G-3/HK-91: Ergonomics of a railroad tie. No bolt release, and a locking system that requires three men and a mule to work the cocking handle. Fluted chamber that mauls brass, and violent bolt motion that dings the brass that didn’t get mauled too badly by the chamber. Stamped sheet metal construction, yet just as heavy as a milled steel M14. Safety lever that requires unnaturally long thumbs, and a trigger pull that feels like dragging a piano across a gravel road with your index finger. Favorite infantry rifle of Cold War nostalgics and third world commandos.
M-16/AR-15: Underpowered varmint rifle burdened by a crummy magazine design. Nasty direct-impingement gas system that poops where it eats. High sight line, flimsy alloy-and-plastic construction. Generally favored by range commandos, tactical disciples, military vets who have never fired anything else for comparison, and Brownells addicts who a.) enjoy spending three times the cost on the rifle on bolt-on accoutrements, and b.) never have to use their rifle away from a dry, sunny range.
G-36: Flimsy plastic rifle with non-user adjustable fair-weather optics that fog up when a gnat breaks wind in front of them. Magazines that take up twice as much pouch space than others in the same caliber because of the "clever" coupling nubs on the magazine housing. Skeleton folding stock that is about as suitable for butt-stroking as a plastic mess spork. Twice as expensive as other rifles in its class because of the "HK" logo on the receiver. Preferred infantry rifle of SWAT cops, and soldiers whose militaries haven’t been in shooting conflicts since the 1940s.
Glock: Butt-ugly plastic shooting appliance with the ergonomics of a caulking gun. Five-pound trigger with no external safety makes it ill-suited for its target market (cops who shoot a hundred rounds a year for qualification). Favored by gangbangers because the product name is short and rhymes with other short, rap-friendly words.
Beretta 92F/M9: Clunky and overweight rip-off of a clunky and overweight German design from the 1930s. Shear-happy locking block, ergonomics that are only suited for linebackers, barely adequate sights that are partially non-replaceable, and low capacity for its size. Favored by Eighties action movie fanatics and John Woo freaks.
1911: Overweight and overly complex piece of late 19th century technology. Low capacity, useless sights in stock form, and a field-stripping procedure that requires three hands. Favored by people who are at the cutting edge of handgun technology and combat shooting…of the 1960s.
H&K P7: Wildly overpriced, heavy for its size, low capacity in most iterations, and blessed with a finish that rusts if you give the gun a moist glance. Gas tube has a tendency to roast the trigger finger after a box or two of ammo at the range. Favored by gun snobs who think that paying twice as much for half the rounds means four times the fighting skill.
SIG Sauer: Top-heavy bricks with the rust resistance of an untreated iron nail at the bottom of a bucket of saltwater. Ergonomically sound, if you have size XXL mitts. Some minor parts made in Germany, so the manufacturer can charge 75% Teutonic Gnome Magic premium. Favored by Jack Bauer fans and wannabe Sky Marshals/Secret Service agents.
S&W Revolvers: Archaic hand weapons from a bygone era, the missing link between flintlocks and autoloaders. Low capacity, and reloading requires a lunch break. Heavy for their capacity, unless you’re talking about airweight snubbies, which hurt as much on the giving end as they do on the receiving end. Rare stoppages, but few malfunctions that don’t require gunsmith services, which are hard to come by in a gunfight. Favored by crusty old farts who just now got around to trusting newfangled smokeless powder, and Dirty Harry fans with unrealistic ideas about the power of Magnum rounds vs. engine blocks.
SMLE/Enfield: Refinement of a 19th century blackpowder design. Weapon of choice for militaries who either couldn’t afford Mausers, or had ideological hangups about Kraut rifles. Rimlock-prone cartridge that only barely classifies as a battle rifle round because of blackpowder derivation and insufficient lock strength of the platform. Favored by Canadians with WWII nostalgia, and people who think that semi-auto rifles are a passing fad.
Browning HP: Fragile frame designed around a popgun round. Near-useless safety in stock form that’s only suitable for the thumbs of elementary schoolers. Strangest and most circuitous way to trip a sear ever put into a handgun. Favored by wannabe SAS commandos, wannabe mercenaries, and Anglophiles who think that hammer-down, chamber-empty carry is the most appropriate way to carry a defensive sidearm.
Benelli shotguns: Plastic boutique scatterguns made by people with the martial acumen of dairy cows. Hideously expensive, and therefore popular with police agencies that get their equipment financed by tax dollars.
FN FAL: Long and lightweight receiver that’s impossible to scope properly. Overpowered round, twenty-round magazines that run dry in a blink, and an overall weapon length that’s only suitable for Napoleonic line infantry, but utterly useless for airborne and armored infantry. Made by Belgians, a nation with a military history that is limited to waving German divisions through at the border. Favored by Falklands veterans, Commonwealth fanboys, and people who think that dial-a-recoil gas systems are the epitome of infantry technology.
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Okaaaaayyyyyy.... now that the writer dissed almost every weapon known to modern man, what does this genius recommend we use? Ah. Most bolt actions are missing from the list, as are lever actions, all shotguns except Benelli, and breech loaders. And wait! small caliber pistols, as long as they are not S&W.
Was this lifted from the American Hunters and Shooters Association?
It takes a great person to turn on their previous employers, to form a small organization funded by shadowy sources and harangue the NRA for many years without any popular support.
It takes a man of principle to receive instructions from those same shadowy sources and carefully position oneself as a sensible, alternative voice to the NRA for no political gain whatsoever
It takes a true patriot to stand up and say that Americans do not have the right to own firearms save for a purpose determined by the government.
- Bob Ricker edit: or someone thinking he's praising him, I'm not sure which...
My take - it may take a true patriot to stand up and say that Americans do not have the right to own firearms save for a purpose determined by the government, but that person certainly is not an American patriot.
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Now tell me how you really feel :D :D :D
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While I would have to agree about the M-16 AR-15 and a little bit in some of the other areas, I have to wonder;
Who is this ass and where does he buy his dope, seems like good stuff.
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Not sure what to make of this list ???
I have several from that list, and I can't say I agree with the comments ???
Is there a sarcasim I'm missing, or am I just an idiot ???
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I guess whoever wrote tis has n/ever actually had to depend on them to stay alive.
M14- Great rifle, little heavy but so what? Hits what is pointed at HARD.
M16-Varmit gun, maybe but has done well (not necessarily great) in every environment its been in so far
Glock- That many cops can't be all THAT wrong
M9- Much better ergo than above Glock (at least to me) and the locking block issues were traced to ammo and improvements made.
1911-Made when and still viable? Need I say more
S&W revolvers-See Glock
Overall opinion: TROLLING
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This same post was entered on the DR radio thread also...
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Okaaaaayyyyyy.... now that the writer dissed almost every weapon known to modern man, what does this genius recommend we use? Ah. Most bolt actions are missing from the list, as are lever actions, all shotguns except Benelli, and breech loaders. And wait! small caliber pistols, as long as they are not S&W.
Also note that most of the list is/would be on a Brady/Obummer AWB or similar attack on freedom.
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Got to be sarcasm, says the M14 is under powered says the FN FAL is over powered, they use the same cartridge.
Some of it is spot on, though other parts are pure imagination.
Either a joke or an idiot, and since the poster has never before come across as a troll or idiot I'm betting satire.
PS, Read WTR100's signature line, Appleseeds were originally intended for M 1 A shooters, it reinforces my guess of satire. ;D
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Got to be sarcasm, says the M14 is under powered says the FN FAL is over powered, they use the same cartridge.
Some of it is spot on, though other parts are pure imagination.
Either a joke or an idiot, and since the poster has never before come across as a troll or idiot I'm betting satire.
PS, Read WTR100's signature line, Appleseeds were originally intended for M 1 A shooters, it reinforces my guess of satire. ;D
WE GOT A WINNER!
;D
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I didn't mean to imply the poster was the writer. wtr's previous posts don't paint him as a troll. Rather, I thought he found and clipped this from somewhere. Plenty of inane comments floating around. I was going to counter his find with "The Ten Manliest Guns", but I think it was posted prior.
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M14/M1A: Clunky, heavy, and overpowered. Essentially a Garand tarted up with a removable magazine, in a half-baked attempt to adapt a 19th century rifle design philosophy to the mid-20th century. Most often named as favorite infantry rifle by people who never had to hump a 10-pound wood-stocked rifle with lots of sharp protrusions and no collapsible anything on a three day exercise, or try to make it through a firefight with the standard battle load of five 20-round magazines.
AK-47: Crude and inaccurate bullet thrower designed by and for illiterate peasants. Chambered in a caliber that manages to cut the ballistics of a proper .30-caliber battle rifle in half without passing on any weight savings to the grunt. Ergonomics only suitable for Russian midgets. Archaic cable trigger spring, crummy sights, no sight radius to speak of, no bolt hold-open device, and a clumsy safety. Favorite infantry rifle of Middle Eastern goat herders, guys named Abdullah, and backwoods militia types who like the fact that it shoots cheap ammo and has ballistics like their familiar .30-30.
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FN FAL: Long and lightweight receiver that’s impossible to scope properly. Overpowered round, twenty-round magazines that run dry in a blink, and an overall weapon length that’s only suitable for Napoleonic line infantry, but utterly useless for airborne and armored infantry. Made by Belgians, a nation with a military history that is limited to waving German divisions through at the border. Favored by Falklands veterans, Commonwealth fanboys, and people who think that dial-a-recoil gas systems are the epitome of infantry technology.
Wrong thread, mister! You should've posted to the Classic Joke thread ;)
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Come on guys. It's sarcasm. How could it possibly be anything else?
M-16/AR-15: Generally favored by range commandos, tactical disciples, military vets who have never fired anything else for comparison. As a vet who only shot M16s in the army I have to agree with that part.
I'm not going to win any popularity contests with my next remark. The M14 was obsolete before it got off the drawing board. Not my personal opinion, but that of a lot military leaders, gun designers, and one of my firearms repair instructors. Most say that it was a refined version of the M1 and nothing more.
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hehehe
SMLE/Enfield: Refinement of a 19th century blackpowder design. Weapon of choice for militaries who either couldn’t afford Mausers, or had ideological hangups about Kraut rifles. Rimlock-prone cartridge that only barely classifies as a battle rifle round because of blackpowder derivation and insufficient lock strength of the platform. Favored by Canadians with WWII nostalgia, and people who think that semi-auto rifles are a passing fad.
or for those that can not get semi-auto rifles
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Come on guys. It's sarcasm. How could it possibly be anything else?
I'm in a bad mood, that's why. Just found out this morning my school district is the only one in the area w/o a rifle team. Dropped in 1998. Also found out the new road (Fire House Rd) was supposed to be named Reagan Way. Both courtesy of feckin' feckless libs who ground them out through threats of lawsuits. AND we now have security guards in our local McDonalds because of 'undesirable youth activity.'
I've just stepped up my spare ammo by one mag.
Rant off
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I must apologize to WTR as far as bad trolling, we do throw out off the wall comments at work to see if we can reel in someone into a story just to see how far it can go. ;D ;D
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You almost sounded like Larry Vickers for a minute. LOL
Its a joke.
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Come on guys. It's sarcasm. How could it possibly be anything else?
M-16/AR-15: Generally favored by range commandos, tactical disciples, military vets who have never fired anything else for comparison. As a vet who only shot M16s in the army I have to agree with that part.
I'm not going to win any popularity contests with my next remark. The M14 was obsolete before it got off the drawing board. Not my personal opinion, but that of a lot military leaders, gun designers, and one of my firearms repair instructors. Most say that it was a refined version of the M1 and nothing more.
I understand what you are saying about the M - 14, It was the last "battle rifle" when technology and tactics were changing to embrace the select fire "assault rifle" / "Sturm gewehr" philosophy, It came along one war to late to displace the Garand as the ultimate "Battle Rifle". Still a hell of a rifle though.
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I'm not going to win any popularity contests with my next remark. The M14 was obsolete before it got off the drawing board. Not my personal opinion, but that of a lot military leaders, gun designers, and one of my firearms repair instructors. Most say that it was a refined version of the M1 and nothing more.
That would be the same M1 that Patton described as the best battle implement ever invented?
Yes, the M-14 is a refined M1 Garand, but if it were obsolete, why WTSHTF in various endeavors after Grenada do our people continue to flock to the M-14 for its stopping power and it's long range capabilities - far longer than the AKs and ARs. It's not plastic and aluminum, and it certainly may not the best for urban warfare for its length. But it is still an excellent weapon, and hardly obsolete.
Besides, when we dumbed down the military, moving to a spray and pray weaponry (what was the shot-kill ration in Nam - 2 million shots for 1 kill?) - easier than making them riflemen - I hardly think that obsoletes previous generations of weapons, just makes them different.
It is heavy though . . .
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That would be the same M1 that Patton described as the best battle implement ever invented?
Yes, the M-14 is a refined M1 Garand, but if it were obsolete, why WTSHTF in various endeavors after Grenada do our people continue to flock to the M-14 for its stopping power and it's long range capabilities - far longer than the AKs and ARs. It's not plastic and aluminum, and it certainly may not the best for urban warfare for its length. But it is still an excellent weapon, and hardly obsolete.
Besides, when we dumbed down the military, moving to a spray and pray weaponry (what was the shot-kill ration in Nam - 2 million shots for 1 kill?) - easier than making them riflemen - I hardly think that obsoletes previous generations of weapons, just makes them different.
It is heavy though . . .
It's not necessarily "dumbing down" the military,. It was about a fundamental change in the philosophy of small arms usage. Prior to WWII the Germans and Russians started the trend, with the aim of increasing the fire power of small units they began issuing large numbers of sub machine guns to infantry units, this left them with the problem of supplying multiple calibers Rifle ammo for reach and pistol ammo for volume, the Germans followed by the Russians tried to eliminate the supply problem by combining the rifle and SMG functions and capabilities in one weapon, granted, it was not necessarily the "Best" of both worlds, but in most of the world the current crop of Sturm Gewehr / assault rifles are sufficient for what they are used for. The problems with long range engagement are really a fairly special purpose situation. Most of our combat situations since WWII have been in much shorter range environments, designated marksmen and snipers are the only troops to regularly engage targets at long range.
The M 14 is the ultimate iteration of the Battle rifle (while the box magazine deprives it of the classic lines of the M1)
Unfortunately the day of the Battle rifle has passed into history as it no longer fits into military doctrine.
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M14 is by no means obsolete and plays an important role as the Designated Marksmen Rifle (DMR).
I would love to see it replace the M4/M16 provide a truly effective platform for rifllemen. Necessarily, the engagement dictates the weaponry, so the M4/M16 is a good compromise, but in a open environment the M14 is vastly superior.
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I would still rather carry a m14 ( or m1 for that matter) then a AR.
Some one has to teach the bad guys the diffrence between cover and concealment. ;)
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M14 is by no means obsolete and plays an important role as the Designated Marksmen Rifle (DMR).
I would love to see it replace the M4/M16 provide a truly effective platform for rifllemen. Necessarily, the engagement dictates the weaponry, so the M4/M16 is a good compromise, but in a open environment the M14 is vastly superior.
I to would like to see the M 14 re adapted by the Army, ain't gonna happen, as I stated before DMR is a fairly special purpose weapon. The best you can expect in the future is an AR type weapon in an intermediate caliber like .270 or so.
You will never see the Armed forces adopt another 7.62 x 51 (.308) for general issue due to the fact that in individual weapon weight ranges it is uncontrollable in full auto and MODERN doctrine requires select fire capability. Semi auto may be fine for extended engagements but in modern warfare full auto is mandatory for achieving fire superiority in the assault or counter ambush situation where keeping the enemies head down, preventing him from applying accurate fire is more important than killing people who you probably can't see any way. The reasoning behind the "battle RIFLE" died in the mass assaults of WWI and unlike Lazarus will not be resurrected.
Would I love to have an M1A for competition, HELL YES ! Would I carry one in combat? only till I could get my hands on an AK (full auto) In modern warfare the trend is the same as in industry, "Do more with less", smaller units engaging in patrols raids etc. in these circumstances "fire superiority" is the key to success If the amount of fire your unit puts down forces the opposition to keep their heads down they aren't aiming therefore they are not presenting EFFECTIVE resistance, this makes it easier for your unit to achieve their objective, whatever may be. Notice I never said, "spray and Pray"? If one aimed round is effective (and probably impossible when the enemy has had time to dig into an ambush or defensive position) Then 3 - 5 aimed rounds will be more effective. When the situation warrents it, you select semi assume a stable firing position and pick them off.
Remember, we are talking about general issue to Infantry units, NOT Marksmanship units or specialists like DM's or snipers.
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I would still rather carry a m14 ( or m1 for that matter) then a AR.
Some one has to teach the bad guys the diffrence between cover and concealment. ;)
TAB, with the M203 (grenade launcher under M16 barrel) you can teach them that neither one is good enough ;D
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Did a google on the "Appleseed Project". http://www.appleseedinfo.org/
Did a very quick read on it and not sure what they are trying to promote. Claim they are trying to promote markmanship. Try the site.
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What about a select-fire version of Springfield Armory's SOCOM II in 6.8 SPC or something along those lines? 6.5 Grendel? Is that practical in the M1 platform?
That would fit the bill handily! :P
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I was working on a new rifle design before I moved (what can I say, I have weird hobbies). It is a super lightweight weapons platform, modular like the XM8, able to go from PDW to Sub-machinegun to carbine, rifle, DMR rifle and SAW. It uses a roller-locked delayed blowback like the CETME/G-3 with a recoil reduction system. Chambered in 6.5 Grendel it would use 90gr flat-based bullets for CQB and standard use, 123gr VLD bullets for longer range use and 144gr VLD for special applications. I would weigh less than an AR, be as reliable as an AK and it would be super accurate given good ammo. It would (IMHO) be the Uberweapon until somebody can out with Phasers or phased-plasma weapons, but of course the problem is getting it built, getting it tested and getting it adopted.
Governments do not buy one or two weapons, they by thousands, even millions of them, plus spare-parts, magazines and cleaning kits, tens of Billions of rounds of ammo and all the other things it needs to equip hundreds of thousands of troops, to say nothing of having to retrain all the troops. Replacing the M-16/M-4's would take billions of dollars, which is why they don't want to do it. Even just going to a new upper like the H&K 416 would be massively expensive. No, I fear that we are stuck with what we have until those Phasers come out.
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I was working on a new rifle design before I moved (what can I say, I have weird hobbies). It is a super lightweight weapons platform, modular like the XM8, able to go from PDW to Sub-machinegun to carbine, rifle, DMR rifle and SAW. It uses a roller-locked delayed blowback like the CETME/G-3 with a recoil reduction system. Chambered in 6.5 Grendel it would use 90gr flat-based bullets for CQB and standard use, 123gr VLD bullets for longer range use and 144gr VLD for special applications. I would weigh less than an AR, be as reliable as an AK and it would be super accurate given good ammo. It would (IMHO) be the Uberweapon until somebody can out with Phasers or phased-plasma weapons, but of course the problem is getting it built, getting it tested and getting it adopted.
Governments do not buy one or two weapons, they by thousands, even millions of them, plus spare-parts, magazines and cleaning kits, tens of Billions of rounds of ammo and all the other things it needs to equip hundreds of thousands of troops, to say nothing of having to retrain all the troops. Replacing the M-16/M-4's would take billions of dollars, which is why they don't want to do it. Even just going to a new upper like the H&K 416 would be massively expensive. No, I fear that we are stuck with what we have until those Phasers come out.
Keep at it Warhawk, remember, Sam Colt started out with 3 things, an idea, a pocket knife and a block of wood. (he also went broke once or twice)
Did a google on the "Appleseed Project". http://www.appleseedinfo.org/
Did a very quick read on it and not sure what they are trying to promote. Claim they are trying to promote markmanship. Try the site.
Great program, started by Fred of Fred's M -14 stock's, Sole purpose of the Appleseed project is to promote American Rifle Marksmanship skills, We are having one up here in the spring. Several other members have attended them and reported favorably. Search for it on here, I know there are a couple threads.
What about a select-fire version of Springfield Armory's SOCOM II in 6.8 SPC or something along those lines? 6.5 Grendel? Is that practical in the M1 platform?
That would fit the bill handily! :P
I'm not familiar with the rounds mentioned (heard of them but never fired them) but even if you converted it to shoot laser beams The Govt will not buy it unless it is "Modular". The complexity of the weapon removes it from consideration. Govt. buyers do not buy for the cadre, they buy for the million or so draftee's that could be called upon to use a given weapon. That is why so many countries field some variant of the AK,you don't need much smarts, education, or technical background to safely and effectively use it, or maintain it, you can be a medical student like Che Guavarra, or a cattle herder in the deepest Congo and still become equally adept with it.
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Ok, I can't remember the blog that this originates from, but I remember reading it last week on the authors's site, and yes - it is sarcasm. Some of his regular readers took him to task for not including his (evidently) favorite wheelguns, which he proceed to mock in his comments section, in the interest of 'equal time'.
It's a swipe at the ever-present naysayers, not the guns.
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Tom, the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are readily available in AR-15s. You're probably wondering like I am why anyone would custom-chamber a M-14 in either of those when you can get them in AR-15s. And you hit the nail on the head on your previous post about assault rifles and changing tactics. The M14 was a MBR invented in a time AFTER assault rifles were already becoming common. Right weapon, wrong time. Also when you carry an M16 with 240 rounds it still weighs less than an M14 with 100 rounds IIRC. If you fire an M14 full-auto the second bullet is probably 6 feet too high and after that you're gunning down airplanes. :)
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Tom, the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are readily available in AR-15s. You're probably wondering like I am why anyone would custom-chamber a M-14 in either of those when you can get them in AR-15s. And you hit the nail on the head on your previous post about assault rifles and changing tactics. The M14 was a MBR invented in a time AFTER assault rifles were already becoming common. Right weaoon, wrong time. Also when you carry an M16 with 240 rounds it still weighs less than an M14 with 100 rounds IIRC.
There are those of us that would argue that you can do more with 100 rounds of 7.62 than 240 of .223.
Why do you think they added the 3 round select? ;)
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There are those of us that would argue that you can do more with 100 rounds of 7.62 than 240 of .223.
Why do you think they added the 3 round select? ;)
Trying to control an uncontrollable platform, why do you think the BAR weighed about 20 pounds compared to the Garand at around 10. Same reason the Belt fed version of the HK 91 was a flop (HK 33 ?) . Full auto weapons need more weight than semi's to help keep you somewhere near the target. Any .308 that is heavy enough to be an effective full auto is to heavy to serve as an infantry rifle, any .308 light enough to serve as an infantry rifle is to light for effective full auto, it's part of the reason the .223 AR design was adopted instead of the AR 10 in .308. In fact that makes the best illustration possible of my point, same design .223 is usable in full auto . 308 isn't.
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SO, what you are saying is that YOU can't control a 308 or pull off a three round burst on one. Gee, the Thompson .45 is uncomtrolable too! ::)
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SO, what you are saying is that YOU can't control a 308 or pull off a three round burst on one. Gee, the Thompson .45 is uncomtrolable too! ::)
No it's not, but it also weighs 10 pounds compared to 42 oz's for a 1911. And No I'm not saying I can't control .308 in full auto , I'm saying that was the decision of the Army Ordnance board, based on feed back from troops in Vn.
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Give me the 'heavy' .308, thank you very much or if it is all 'close', I'll take the M1A2 carbine. (been there, done that)
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The M-1 carbine was so weak the it was replaced by the more powerful M16. Thinking the M16 is too weak but the weaker carbine is okay... ??? I don't get it.
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Give me the 'heavy' .308, thank you very much or if it is all 'close', I'll take the M1A2 carbine. (been there, done that)
I agree with Frank, M1 carbine is a sweet little plinker but based on personal experience with steel and aluminum plates I'd rather trust my life to a Marlin camp 9.
You are being purposely dense to twist my tail. First, I LIKE the .308,in semi auto rifles it's a great round, in machine guns it's a great round, in a select fire hybrid of the 2 it's either an uncontrollable POS or else the weapon is to heavy to serve the purpose it was designed for. Thats why Saiga markets a .308 SEMI auto AK but never developed the full auto version that would be the logical next step if the idea hadn't already been proven to be unworkable, even with the AR's buffer system. Second, you won't be firing full auto out of your Ishy so your comments are irrelevant in the context of what you will practically be doing with it.
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I carried the M14 and the M1A2 AND the POS M16. I speak from actual experience.
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Was the M 14 SELECT FIRE ?
This thread is getting WAY off track, Many of the things you say about the M 14/ M1a are perfectly true in a CIVILIAN application, but not in the context of the original thread, which was about MILITARY weapons, in that context the M 14 was a foot note in history that was by passed by changes in tactics, doctrine, and ordanance buying logistics before it ever hit the drawing board, it was at best an interim stop gap until something could be developed that filled the bill for changing requirements.
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Yes and is still used by:
* Argentina: Used by Argentine soldiers of C Company, Regimento (Especial) de Infanteria 25 in the Falklands War at the Battle of Goose Green and San Carlos.[5]
* Australia: Used by Australian SAS troops during the Vietnam War.
* China: Created by Norinco and Poly Technologies for export,[3][4] the rifle being made by the former as the M14S[6]. A semi-auto version is said to be made as the M305[7].
* Colombia
* Costa Rica
* Dominican Republic
* Ecuador
* El Salvador
* Estonia: Used by Estonian troops with a modified version called the Täpsuspüss M14-TP (Precision Rifle M14-PR), with changes to the stock with a thumbhole and its wooden body with a plastic green one.[8]
* Ethiopia
* Greece
* Haiti: Used by Haiti security forces and rebels in the 2004 Haitian rebellion.[5]
* Honduras: Seen in rebel hands in 2003.[5]
* Iceland
* Israel: Used as sniper rifle with eventual conversion and production as M89SR.[5][9]
* Latvia
* Lebanon: Armed Christian militiamen during the Lebanese Civil War.[5]
* Lithuania: Modified locally by Koncernas Pergale as the M14L1 with changes to body, stock with large thumbhole and scope mount including exposed gas piston and rod.[10]
* Malaysia: Minor used by Royal Malaysian Navy PASKAL only as well as RMN vessel crews for rope launching.
* Niger
* Philippines: Used by the Armed Forces of the Philippines and primarily by the New People's Army.[5]
* Poland: Used by FORMOZA
* South Korea: Limited use, seen in honor guard duties.[11]
* South Vietnam
* Republic of China: (Taiwan) Made under license as the Type 57.[5]
* Turkey
* Venezuela
* United States: Uses the M14SE, manufactured by Smith Enterprise, in SDM roles.[12] Also uses M14s custom built or modified in military armories, such as the M14 DMR.
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As it turns out a guy on another forum I'm made this list up just to stir up stuff on the net. I just found this out by accident a little while ago. I took him to task over it.
Thanks for the encouragement Tom but Sam Colt lived in a country where;
"If you build a better mousetrap, the world shall beat a path to your door"
I live in a world where;
"If you build a better mousetrap, the Mousetrap Manufactures Association will call their lobbyists and get the Federal Trade Commission to sue you for unfair trading practices and the Media will do an expose funded by PETA showing you as a mass-murderer who is destroying poor oppressed rodent-beings for your own selfish profit"
Of course, I might just be a tiny bit cynical.
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SanJuanCB, the question was about the M 14 Haz carried, I should have made that clear but since he was the one busting my chops I sort of forgot about the rest of you, ;D Sorry ;D.
I have to point out about your post though that NONE of the countries listed issue the M 14 as their primary arm most if not all are semi auto, and used for special purposes, such as DM's Snipers and (I can think of no more degrading end for a rifle) line launching, the USN uses the M14 in this capacity as well.
The Chinese never used the M 14 the Norinco version was initially built for export to the US civilian market, and was about what you would expect from a pirated copy, although their 1911 has a better reputation, based on the one I had it was not deserved.As it turns out a guy on another forum I'm made this list up just to stir up stuff on the net. I just found this out by accident a little while ago. I took him to task over it.
Thanks for the encouragement Tom but Sam Colt lived in a country where;
"If you build a better mousetrap, the world shall beat a path to your door"
I live in a world where;
"If you build a better mousetrap, the Mousetrap Manufactures Association will call their lobbyists and get the Federal Trade Commission to sue you for unfair trading practices and the Media will do an expose funded by PETA showing you as a mass-murderer who is destroying poor oppressed rodent-beings for your own selfish profit"
Of course, I might just be a tiny bit cynical.
Warhawk, part of the reason Old Sam went broke the first time, this happened to a couple others as well, is that the world was perfectly happy with the mouse traps they were familiar with, Sam, Gatling, Maxim and other successful designers had to cram their mousetraps down peoples throats in order to get the initial large contracts. Sam Colt was notorious for giving presentation revolvers to people who might be able to help with marketing, and Maxim never did get a US contract, ALL his sales were to foreign Govts. In WWI when Hiram Maxim ( born and raised in Wells Maine) died, the British, Germans , and Russians were slaughtering each other with Machine guns, ALL were license built Maxims.
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Haha...gotcha. Tunnel vision with text? lol
The point I was making is that the rifle is far from obsolete and is functional, especially in it's niche.
I looked up the Estonian version and I like it a lot!
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Haha...gotcha. Tunnel vision with text? lol
The point I was making is that the rifle is far from obsolete and is functional, especially in it's niche.
I looked up the Estonian version and I like it a lot!
Haha...gotcha. Tunnel vision with text? lol
The point I was making is that the rifle is far from obsolete and is functional, especially in it's niche.
I looked up the Estonian version and I like it a lot!
I'll google it, but could you post a link ?
We are technologically savvy, with greater experience and (Presumably) skill levels than the average military recruit, we are not likely to be staging assaults on prepared positions or getting ambushed, with that in mind, the M 1 A is an excellent rifle for us. with an optional 5 round magazine (depending on state game law round restrictions ) it is suitable for any use WE would have for a .308 . The only qualification I would add to that is I don't like the idea of scoping an action directly over the ejection port, for scoped rifles I would prefer an AR or HK type ejection location, I realize that MANY M21's are in service, and working well but that's my little prejudice.
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http://www.sodur.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24&Itemid=34
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Thanks, Interesting stock design.
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Mini-14 would look good wearing one of those stocks.
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Good reading on the M14. As a Marine infantryman (MOS 0311) I carried an M1Garand, M14 and M16. Never did like the M14, never could get used to it, uncontrollable in full-auto. On full-auto the M14, probably hit the first round and next two, punching holes in the sky. As far as weight is concerned, watched one guy once with an FN type rifle shooting full-auto, first round on target, next one about 3 foot high and third at least five foot high. BAR was great but to be accurate you had to be prone, with bipod and hold it down. Never felt the M14 to be as accurate as a Garand but I only carried the M14 for a year. Maybe with more time could learn and like it. At first did not like the M16 but got to know the rifle and enough that I have an AR. Used the M16 as a Marine infantry/recon and federal officer. As far as caliber is concerned, I'll take the .308.