The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: texcaliber on June 27, 2007, 11:26:41 AM
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At what distance should I zero my crimson trace laser grips for my S&W1911PD 4.25"? The gun is going to be carried and also home-defence. I have had a huge variance in opinion among friends and coworkers. Lets see what yall think.
tex
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At what distance should I zero my crimson trace laser grips for my S&W1911PD 4.25"? The gun is going to be carried and also home-defence. I have had a huge variance in opinion among friends and coworkers. Lets see what yall think.
tex
What is the trajectory of the round?
If it is relatively flat to 25 yards that is where I would zero.
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What is the trajectory of the round?
I like the GoldenSaber 185+P from Rem. and out of the gun at around 1100f/s ! As the trajectory " I dont know?" But I can clang a Rifle PepperPopper with it at a 100yds. with very little hold over for center mass hits. Headshots hit knee area of pepperpopper.
As for,
If it is relatively flat to 25 yards that is where I would zero.
Why?
You are not the first person to suggest the 25yd. but remember I am using this for a personal carry/home system. And I do not know how good your eyes are but mine are junk at distance, hence the grips. But my front sight is nice-n-sharp so in good light that fiber optic pops and that blurry target looking thingy get hit, the use of the grips is for low light defence and dry-fire pratice. Maybe this need-to-know information will help you.
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Well Tex, I don't think of 100 yards for self or home defense with a handgun. That's what they make rifles for IMO.
If it was me (and I intended to shoot that far) I would find out what the trajectory is and the zero in so that I could get maximum distance with a 3 inch or less under or over the red dot.. What that zero is and what the max distance is would depend on the caliber, barrel length, load, etc.
Example; 44 Rem Mag 240grn JSP with a zero of 100 yards is only about .6 inches high at 50 yards and .6 inches low at 70 yards while a 158 grain JHP out of a .357 is 202 inches low at 75 yards. (4 inch barrels)
So you need to know your gun and load then find anticipated trajectory and then set the dot for the best results based on the trajectory.
I said 25 yards as it would easily cover anything to 50 yards pretty much dead on for large calibers and I'm not going to be shooting past that with a handgun.
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Well Tex, I don't think of 100 yards for self or home defense with a handgun. That's what they make rifles for IMO.
If it was me (and I intended to shoot that far) I would find out what the trajectory is and the zero in so that I could get maximum distance with a 3 inch or less under or over the red dot.. What that zero is and what the max distance is would depend on the caliber, barrel length, load, etc.
Example; 44 Rem Mag 240grn JSP with a zero of 100 yards is only about .6 inches high at 50 yards and .6 inches low at 70 yards while a 158 grain JHP out of a .357 is 202 inches low at 75 yards. (4 inch barrels)
So you need to know your gun and load then find anticipated trajectory and then set the dot for the best results based on the trajectory.
I said 25 yards as it would easily cover anything to 50 yards pretty much dead on for large calibers and I'm not going to be shooting past that with a handgun.
Well Hazcat, you know what "they" say about Opinions dont ya? ;D
All joking aside, for me, the long shot is eaiser with a pistol do to the need of a cane. But thats not saying i cant shoot a rifle. Just a little off balance.
So back to the pistol. Where i am using it for PD sould I not set the point of impact for 21feet or less? Hazcat cant be the only one with an Opinion yall, although appericaited Haz. No one thinks the zero shoulld be closeup. ???
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home defense I would center it at 25'
for my carry weapon I center it at 10'......shooting at a greater distance invites a lawsuit and very rarely happens in a real world scenario
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Alright Tex I've gotta type fast as I have a computer invasion happening. Ok 1st before I wade into these waters, what does CT say. I'd go with their recommendation first.
Now let's look at the device, the line of sight is below the barrel instead of above like the sights, in most instances the distance from the center of the bore is greater on the grip than on the metallic sights. The laser will only intersect the path of the bullet on the rise and on the fall, 2 places on a hand gun, that may be cool depending on the point blank range of the load, remember each .005" change on the height on the front or rear sight = 1" @25yards on a 5"barrel, and the height of the metallic sights is different from the laser below the bore. kind of like an ar15, with the line of sight so high above the bore, up close it does substantially different than at 100 yrds. I would sight mine in, and have at 15', at 10 yrds it is about 3" high, still ok, and then go range test it, @ 10, 15, 20 and 25 yrds,then document it so I know what to expect. In low light their great, in daylight too hard or long to pickup. I hope this was confusing enough for you, but trying my best.
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I hope this was confusing enough for you, but trying my best.
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As a matter of fact yes it was confusing ???
Ok 1st before I wade into these waters, what does CT say. I'd go with their recommendation first.
;) Kidding aside man great advise I will give it a try.
The big problem i am having is the off set from the center line of the muzzel to lazer relationship. I am having a wierd vector problem with the lazer being off paper at some distances nice tight group at others at point of impact, and the odvious discrepincy(stupid no spellcheck) from gravity trajectory changing the distance. There has to be a simple awnser which I am over looking but the one under your nose is always the hardest to find. >:(
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Tex,
I may have missed it but what are shooting? (caliber, barrel length and round)
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Tex,
I may have missed it but what are shooting? (caliber, barrel length and round)
.
No worries Hazcat, my setup is a S&W 1911PD w/4.25 inch barrel, shooting a Remington GoldenSaber 185gr+P which is traveling around 1100fps. I just picked up a pair of used crimson trace grips which some one picked up and they set the dot to thier flinch(which was bad at like 5 to 5 1/2" to the left at 7 yards). So before I start to bring the dot back, meaning sighted without flinch/punch/yank or other trigger blunders and hitting X-rings, I am looking at my odvious ingorance with the new product which didnt have the manual. Lucky for me it did come with the supersmall allens.
Hope this helps Hazcat.
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Tex,
Here is a link to the ballistics for your round (it's on the Remington site)
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/handgun/golden_saber_HPJ.asp
I would think that if you contact them direct they could give more in depth info.
Haz
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Low light personal defense, I would go with the 21 feet zero.
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The big problem i am having is the off set from the center line of the muzzel to lazer relationship. I am having a wierd vector problem with the lazer being off paper at some distances nice tight group at others at point of impact, and the odvious discrepincy(stupid no spellcheck) from gravity trajectory changing the distance. There has to be a simple awnser which I am over looking but the one under your nose is always the hardest to find. Angry
I took m25operator's advice and talked to CT, and they let me know that the reason the laser was off on my pistol was the fact that it was sighted in on a 5" and I had switched it to a 4". The previous owner is owed a sorry form ol' Tex for questioning his trigger-control. But a big problem solved. Oh yeah, by the way CT recommends a 50' sight in. I asked why of course and with out any irritation the CT person awnsered, " you will be able to hit anything in a defencive setting with placing the dot on target with correct trigger control. Its also the factory setting we have tested and approved."
Now dudes and chicks I may question athority, but its hard to argue with the experts. He also stated that,"most people punch the trigger under stress so dotting the eye versus low dot, the low setup is better". Hope I never get to prove him wrong, but I am going with the lazer dot on top of front sight for dry-fire pratice which should put me around 2-3 inchs low at 21feet.
Tex
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I took m25operator's advice and talked to CT, and they let me know that the reason the laser was off on my pistol was the fact that it was sighted in on a 5" and I had switched it to a 4". The previous owner is owed a sorry form ol' Tex for questioning his trigger-control. But a big problem solved. Oh yeah, by the way CT recommends a 50' sight in. I asked why of course and with out any irritation the CT person awnsered, " you will be able to hit anything in a defencive setting with placing the dot on target with correct trigger control. Its also the factory setting we have tested and approved."
Now dudes and chicks I may question athority, but its hard to argue with the experts. He also stated that,"most people punch the trigger under stress so dotting the eye versus low dot, the low setup is better". Hope I never get to prove him wrong, but I am going with the lazer dot on top of front sight for dry-fire pratice which should put me around 2-3 inchs low at 21feet.
Tex
Good Info to have Tex. Thanks for clearing this up for all of us.
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Good Info to have Tex. Thanks for clearing this up for all of us.
No prob. Hazcat, gald to be more help then trouble for once. ::)
I need to find those cool smilies that Marshal'ette has to ! my point at times
Tex
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The laser will only intersect the path of the bullet on the rise and on the fall
This is true only if your laser, like your sights, is mounted above the barrel. The bullet's path is parabolic, rising from the muzzle to reach its peak, and then falling back to earth. If your Line Of Sight (or your laser) is above the barrel, you can be zeroed at 0 (no intercept between LOS and the parabola), 1 (LOS intercepts parabola only at the peak), or 2 distances (typical set-up, where the LOS intercepts the parabola on the rise and the fall).
If your line of sight is below the barrel, you can only zero at one distance. You can pick the distance, but you can only have 1 intercept between the LOS and the parabola.
This subject is further complicated by the fact that your laser, which functions as your LOS, is offset laterally to the right. At distances closer than your zero point, the group will be displaced slightly to the left of the dot. At distances beyond the zero point, it will be displaced progressively further to the right. At 2 zero distances, the group will be as far to the right of the dot as the laser is to the right of the bore axis. At 3 times the zero distance, it will be displaced twice that far, and at 6 times the zero distance, it will be 5 times that far. Consequently, even if you think you are going to use it at 1 yard, you shouldn't zero it at one yard, because at 7 yards that displacement will be significant. If you zero it at 50 feet, you have to be over 100 feet away before this creates a displacement any greater than the distance between the bore axis and the laser.
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If you zero it at 50 feet, you have to be over 100 feet away before this creates a displacement any greater than the distance between the bore axis and the laser.
almost word for word the awnser form CT. But I do not have the typing nor spellcheck for yours truly to post it. The maybe .OOOOO1% of a chance that I will engauge a 2 or 4 legged animal with my personal carry pistol over the sighted in 7yds. mark, (which after checking at range produces 1.5" to right and low @point-blank and the oppisite results @15yds) well i will either use my sights or possible at that time I will be using the D.R. Middlebrook FistFire system and I will not need either sight system ;D
Tex
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I guess I have to be the heretic here.
I really don't see a need for them. I know your all :o but I think point and shoot is the way for most self defense situations. As I stated in my update in the P=3AT thread i was nailing the target at 7 yards with no problem from the hip. We did a two target set up and would try a one in the first then a one two in the second and back for another in the first and many other variations. I think that if I had had a laser I would have been looking for it instead of at the 'whole picture'.
I know some (most?) will disagree but that's the way I see it. Know you gun and practice and you'll do fine.
BTW I am FAR from a super shooter like I have seen on this thread like TEX, 2How, Squibby and I am sure many others .
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BTW I am FAR from a super shooter like I have seen on this thread like TEX, 2How, Squibby and I am sure many others .
Good to know, glad I am getting Squibby in the "AirSoft Shootout" giveaway! :)
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Good to know, glad I am getting Squibby in the "AirSoft Shootout" giveaway! :)
HEY! I had first dibs on Squib! >:(
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HEY! I had first dibs on Squib! >:(
I will find the quote tomorrow but you were the one who called MB. But if you want to buy ocean front in AZ who am I to tell different. ;D
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Re: "Survive a Weekend with Michael Bane..."
« Reply #56 on: Yesterday at 05:55:29 AM »
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Quote from: Squibby on June 28, 2007, 11:45:40 PM
Nice...blame this ALL on the girl Hazcat Grin
Hey! I'm not responsible for MB having sexier legs than most men (or women for that matter) Kiss...it must be all that biking activity he does. Wonder if he owns any stiletto shoes?
Squib, I just put some visualization to your suggestion (and a wicked one it was Cheesy) then I get the heat! Oh, well.
Here's a suggestion; you and I against MB and Tex. What ya think? I'm old and fat BUT I was in the military (US Army) for 10 years. I think we can take them. You scare the spit out of MB and I'll keep Tex busy until you can rescue me Grin
You were right Hazcat, you called Squibby and as far as i kno, Verbial contracts are BINDING!!
Yup, toooo late Hazcat. DOWN ON THE PAGE! Cant delete. Sorry man. And I though I was getting the sort end of the stick earlier. She's great with revolver, but airsoft semi's, we will see. :-\ Thank goodness for your post ;D