The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Rastus on December 14, 2008, 07:04:40 AM
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OK... I went to websites for Cabela's, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, etc....right up front I see no link for shooting.
Hunting I see.
Shooting I do not.
MB, what was that % of money spent by shooters? Someone (besides my emails) needs to speak to these people. We're not getting respect from our "friends" who sell us things. They have guns and ammo in stores...why not a link for shooting supplies or ammunition or guns on the front page...why must we drill down through hunting...why can we not have our own link up front?
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I do see the Gun Library on the home page of Cabelas and BassPro. But I will say that most home pages are a reflection of where folks spend the most money. Where the store makes the most profit. I realize how everyone here is pretty much a 24/7 gun person. But the reality is that gun manufacturing is a VERY small industry. I understand that a gun sale makes around 15% of sale in profit. Ammo pretty much the same probably. That really is chump change. That to me means that selling guns is a losing proposition for these stores. You realize how many guns and much ammo they would have to sell to even be a blip on the radar screen?
To quote the sales guys motto, "don't believe your own bulls*%t". Guns and shooting don't make the sun rise in the morning.
From Q3 2008 reporting for Cabelas...
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Outdoor gear retailer Cabela's Inc (CAB.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) on Thursday posted quarterly profit that fell almost 27 percent to miss Wall Street targets, and it adopted more conservative full-year profit and revenue forecasts.
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Sportsman's Warehouse is also having to close stores.
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Let me add this to my earlier post ....
I happen to be on the email newsletter list for a guy in Texas that has a gunstore. He seems like a down to earth guy that I ran into because he knew and has a web tribute to Bill Jordan up and running. (if you are in his area you might want to give him some of your business). But I thought this particular newsletter of his hit it right on the button ! Read it and see why selling guns is such a tough business. IT IS BECAUSE OF FOLKS LIKE US THAT WANT TO DRAIN THE VERY LAST DIME OF PROFIT FROM THE SELLER ! I fully understand why he is venting below...
The following is the entire newsletter from JM Gunn.
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TIME FOR THE FACTS
It is time to face the facts and the majority of gun owners are not going to like them. As I write this I know that it will make many people angry but that can ‘t be helped IF it makes them face the facts. It is time that some of the things that will be written here will finally be put down in writing. Some of you that read this might understand. I sure hope so.
In January the most Anti-Gun White House and Congress EVER will be a Fact so we have to face that as reality. The “people” have spoken but it was the wrong people. We all must now suffer from it. If you thought the Clinton administration was Anti-Gun and bad, you will finally see a worse anti-gun administration take over. Read more Facts below, but only if you dare.
Since the November election, gun and ammo sales have been at an all time high. This has lead to a shortage of the guns, ammo and accessories and angry people not being able to get what they want and taking it out on the local gun dealer. It is now almost impossible to find any AR-15’s, AK-47’s, Hi-Capacity magazine clips, and the ammunition for them. Wholesale suppliers are sold out of those items and if they do have any, they are allocating them, limiting one or two per dealer, raising prices, and just plainly selling them only to their biggest and best customers. The small independent gun dealers do not have a chance to buy unless they are very lucky. I am here to tell you now that it is only going to get worse and not better any time soon. There are shortages of ALL kinds of guns and ammunition. We must get use to those facts.
Many people over the years have asked me why I do not carry Scopes, ammo by the cases, a complete selection of hi-capacity magazines for every gun made and other such request. I am going to tell you now, “It is not my Fault”. Let me explain why. Many years ago I had a customer come in that wanted a complete Cowboy Action Shooting outfit. He wanted an old type rifle in a cowboy caliber. He also wanted TWO single action revolvers in a caliber to match the rifle. Also, a complete cowboy holster rig that would hold the two revolvers, an old design shotgun, chaps, shirt, hat, you name it and he wanted it for a complete cowboy action shooting outfit. As I went through my big catalog and was finding the products he wanted, he wrote all the details and manufacturers numbers and prices down that I quoted. As he was doing this I thought to myself that I was been taken advantage of. This whole process took over FIVE hours of my time finding all the products he wanted. I even missed lunch and going to the bathroom because of it and the time involved. After we had completed all his choices I tired to close the sale and get his rather large deposit up front so that I could order everything for him. Maybe you know what happened next. He told me “I can’t get that from you. A guy I work will at the paper mill is an FFL dealer and he told me to come here, pick out everything thing I wanted, get the prices, manufacturer numbers and all this information and then he would sell it to me at ten percent above his cost.” Believe it or not but that really did happen. Take advantage of the poor gun dealer.
Then there is the reason that I don’t stock scopes. Many years ago, I did stock scopes. People would come in and I would show them the scopes, explain the benefits of each and let them step outside the door and look through the scopes so they could notice the differences in each one and pick out the one that they wanted. Then there came the problem. I would try and close the sale. The customer would tell me “Sorry but I can’t buy it from you. I just came in to look through the scopes to see which ones had the best view. Now that I know which one I want, I am going to order it though ones of those gun supply catalogs and save me a lot of money.”
Are you getting angry at me yet or is it something that you have done. Let me give you another example. People have long asked me why I don’t sell ammunition by the case and all the different brands of hi-capacity magazines. Here is the simple truth. It doesn’t pay for me to do it. Why you might ask? Because as so many people are proud to tell me, that they buy ammo by the case and hi-capacity magazines over the Internet from Wholesale suppliers that try to sell wholesale to everyone, licensed gun dealers and the general public. Now that those suppliers are sold out of these items that they were selling at or below my cost to the final consumer, those consumers are going to gun dealers asking for the items at the prices that the wholesale suppliers would charge if they had any of it. One recent customer demanded that I order him seven cases of 7 .62X39mm ammo for him and at a certain price that he had found from an internet supplier in Dallas. I told him I couldn’t get it because all my suppliers were sold out. He got angry at me because I told him I couldn’t get it. I told him I had some 40 round magazines left that fit the AK-47 rifle and told him he needed to get them while I still had some. He told me he didn’t need any because the day before he had just gotten a package in with 30 of the 30 round magazines from Cheaper Than Dirt and it saved him a bundle getting it from them and not from me. This was told to me from a young man in his late 30’s that I have know since he was a baby. Are you laughing yet! How do you think that makes me feel.
Now, are you angry or laughing. People don’t want a gun dealer to make any profit but they expect for the dealer to spend and hour or more showing them guns and accessories that they probably will never buy because they want to pick out what they want and then hit every gun store within 100 miles looking for the best price even if they save only ten or twenty dollars. I once heard a man at a gun show in Texarkana, Arkansas brag about the week before he had driven all the way to Dallas just to save Five Dollars on a gun he wanted. I had better not comment on that. Maybe you get the idea here. People want gun dealers to spend hours showing them products but they don’t want the dealer to make any or enough profit to be able to pay their bills. If a gun dealer or anyone needs to talk to a lawyer, doctor, accountant or just about anyone, those people expect to charge you for their time and consultation. If I need the services of a mechanic, plumber, electrician, or any one else, they are going to charge high rates or else they are not going to do the work.
When people come in and tell me they want a certain gun that I have and then ask me “What is out the door bottom dollar you will take for it,” that makes me wonder, do they ask the say thing on every purchase they make, at Wal-Mart, the grocery store, the gasoline station, the tire shops, the movie rental store, and everywhere else, OR is it only at the local gun shop. I sometimes wonder.
So, I am almost to the end of this sermon. How do people expect gun shops to say in business if they are not allowed to make a profit! The facts are that in the next few years there are going to be many, many less gun shops around. The small shops will not be able to make a living at it. That will leave only the Mega Shops and they will be charging much higher prices than they are at the present time. Simply because there will be less competition and the fact that there will be less guns and supplies available to sell, IF ANY at all. The new anti-gun White House and Congress will be pushing for more gun laws, higher excise taxes on ammo and a wide range of other policies that will not be gun owner friendly. They will appoint anti-gun Supreme Court Justices that will interpret the laws differently and will not be gun friendly. Change is upon us. Times change and things change. So will gun shops.
I hope this didn’t make you too angry. I just thought it was something that needed to be said. I sure hope that I got my point across and maybe you will see things from a different point of view. If you would like to let me know your views on the above information please send me an e-mail. My address is on this web site home page.
May God be with you and Especially with this Country. God Bless America.
Sincerely,
John M. Gunn
J. M. Gunn Company
December 2, 2008
J M GUNN COMPANY BUSINESS HOURS:
Appointments Preferred
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http://www.jmgunncompany.com
http://www.jmgunnco.com
http://www.gunnsguns.com
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TO SUBSCRIBE to Gunn-News Newsletters
mail to: jmgunnco@thebards.net Subject: SUBSCRIBE, In the message
area, type your Name, Address, Phone Number, and e-mail address.
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John M. Gunn, J. M. GUNN COMPANY, FIrearms Retailer
2207 Holly Street, Atlanta, TEXAS 75551-1864
Phone 903-796-5192, jmgunnco@thebards.net
LIFE MEMBER:
National Rifle Association http://www.nra.org
Texas State Rifle Association http://www.tsra.com
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......To quote the sales guys motto, "don't believe your own bulls*%t". Guns and shooting don't make the sun rise in the morning.
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Perhaps all those stores, etc. are closing because of the economy in general and too many stores for the market. Problem here seems to be we sell ourselves short and many are all too happy to apologize for our sport. By the way, I was looking to buy some ammo....but then, as you say, they probably aren't making any money on it so that's why it's hidden not up front...using your logic, of course...so I wonder why they even include it at all???????????
http://www.nssf.org/news/PR_idx.cfm?AoI=generic&PRloc=share/PR/&PR=031008.cfm
Report: Hunting, Shooting Gear Tops Golf in Sales
NEWTOWN, Conn. -- Fore! Sportsmen and women are playing through.
Hunting- and shooting-related equipment has out-driven golf in sales, according to data released by the National Sporting Goods Association.
New statistics show that hunting gear and firearm sales topped $3.7 billion in 2006, up 4.1 percent from the previous year. Only exercise equipment performed better, with sales of $5.22 billion, according to NSGA's most recent "Sporting Goods Market" report. Golf equipment, which claimed the No. 2 spot the previous year, fell into the third spot with $3.66 billion in sales.
"These statistics not only further demonstrate the willingness of America's 40 million hunters and shooters to spend big bucks to enjoy their lifestyles, but also show our industry's success in continuing to develop new products to meet their needs," said Doug Painter, president of the firearm industry's trade association, the National Shooting Sports Foundation.
"The increase in projected sales reported by NSGA corresponds to other increases we saw between 2005 and 2006 in production, excise taxes on firearms and ammunition, background checks related to the purchase of firearms and in hunting license sales," said Painter.
NSGA's sales projection for 2007 shows golf equipment and hunting and shooting equipment running neck-and-neck to claim the No. 2 spot, with exercise equipment remaining at No. 1.
Included in the hunting- and shooting-related equipment category are firearms ($2.18 billion in 2006 sales), airguns ($224.1 million), ammunition ($977.1 million), knives ($51.8 million), paintball guns/packages ($220.9 million) and reloading equipment ($52.0 million).
Below is a listing of the top 10 categories.
2006 Sales: Athletic and Sports Equipment
1. Exercise - $5.22 billion
2. Hunting and firearms - $3.71 billion
3. Golf - $3.66 billion
4. Athletic goods team sales - $2.62 billion
5. Fishing tackle - $2.22 billion
6. Camping - $1.53 billion
7. Optics - $1.01 billion
8. Snow skiing - $615.0 million
9. Billiards / indoor games - $570.9 million
10. Tennis - $419.8 million
The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), formed in 1961, is the non-profit trade association for the shooting, hunting and firearms industry. NSSF directs a variety of outreach programs to promote greater participation and a better understanding of hunting and the shooting sports, emphasizing safe and responsible ownership of firearms. For more information, visit www.nssf.org.
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Retail stores are notorious for living on the tightrope. Look at how many of the general department stores are closing now or will in January. These stores carry ammo because it brings in customers who buy other stuff in the store that has a higher profit margin.
Retail businesses like these live on single digit profit margins. And PROFIT IS WHAT BUSINESS IS ABOUT. I read the NSSF BS also. Yes sales revenue may be up. But you know what, PROFIT IS THE MEASURE A BUSINESS REALLY GETS EXCITED ABOUT. It is after all the charges are applied and the profit is calculated that makes or breaks a business. These are NOT CHARITABLE CAUSES. They can sell a couple of BILLION (revenue) but if that amounts to ZERO or NEGATIVE profit, the store closes. HELLO ... Does General Motors sound familiar? How come NSSF doesn't publish the profit numbers for these companies. CAUSE IT WOULD BE EMBARRASING.
Look I am not being argumentative. I just hear on all these forums/websites chat about this number or that. But you need to take a look at the publicly traded company reports. That way you can see ALL the info. Not just what the industry mouthpieces want you to hear. Take a look at Ruger, S&W, ATK (this is really a defense industry company), FN (I believe is public), Olin, etc. If you strip out the military contracts and go to the civilian numbers they are all marginal businesses. And by the way if Exercise Equipment is outselling guns you get an idea of how small this industry is. TONY LITTLE probably outsells Remington !!! Can you believe that ! GO GAZELLE !!!
Oh well, I am venting here. I apologize. Just be realistic about this hobby of ours. We joke about GUN PORN, but the reality is that these websites and magazines are not much different from regular porn. They try to gin up the business by extraordinary stories, pictures etc. Look kiddies, see how this is what you need today! Buy this ! Oh you NEED this ! MORE OF THAT !
Go out and buy your ammo. Shoot often, have fun. Bring new folks into the sport. But don't get caught up in the spin cycle....
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Go out and buy your ammo. Shoot often, have fun. Bring new folks into the sport. But don't get caught up in the spin cycle....
+100.....and buy local!
Support the small business that employes 95% of the American population.....It makes no sense to drive 50-100 miles to BassPro, Cabelas and other superstores or pay shipping charges to save a couple bucks on things....
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+100.....and buy local!
Support the small business that employes 95% of the American population.....It makes no sense to drive 50-100 miles to BassPro, Cabelas and other superstores or pay shipping charges to save a couple bucks on things....
Which is why I keep touting The Outdoorsman in Fargo - family owned - that and the fact that they have ARs and AKs on the rack. We have a Cabelas in Grand Forks (45 minutes away from me), and a Gander Mountain, Scheel's (also family-owned but a big regional chain) and Sportsman's Warehouse all within 2 miles of the The Outdoorsman. I have done my part this year to support them all.
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.............. Just be realistic about this hobby of ours. .........
I guess that is where we differ. It is not a hobby to me....it's a way of life. Ham radio is a hobby of mine, the $50k bass boat in the garage is a hobby of mine, R/C planes are a hobby of mine and woodworking is a hobby of mine like gardening when I get a chance. They are not the 2nd Ammendment and not, as I believe, crucial to living free and defending the life of my family and myself.
Enjoy your hobby.
I'll get on with my life.
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I guess that is where we differ. It is not a hobby to me....it's a way of life. Ham radio is a hobby of mine, the $50k bass boat in the garage is a hobby of mine, R/C planes are a hobby of mine and woodworking is a hobby of mine like gardening when I get a chance. They are not the 2nd Ammendment and not, as I believe, crucial to living free and defending the life of my family and myself.
Enjoy your hobby.
I'll get on with my life.
:( I don't confuse business with 2A.
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Used to work in a gun store in St. Louis, MO. They went out of business within a year after 9/11. Anyway, we used to have folks do the same thing to us. They would come to us and pick our brains, get all their questions answered and tell us they would think about it, then go to a chain store or something. I know because they would show up again with a rifle and scope and want us to mount it or would come back in for shotgun accessories etc. For some reason guns and cars get wheeled and dealed. I always pay what the dealer asks but I know what the gun sells for i.e. I don't have a problem with a guy making a profit but if one small dealer has gun for $25 less than another I will buy from them instead. For example two gun stores in my hometown sell the same box of .44 special one for $20 the other $29.99. Now both are private dealers not a chain store vs. dealer, so I buy from the cheaper one. Who wouldn't? Don't mind a guy making a profit but account for that? Anyway always support the local boys if we don't have them the chains are all we have and they can be politically moved i.e. pay their owners enough and tey will change to sporting goods or close up.
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Ive given my opinion on this on an earlier thread, and I will share it again....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3604.msg42301#msg42301
In my opinion, it is vital that we help to keep full service gun shops open and profitable. These places represent something greater then just a place to buy ammo or some hunting/shooting gear. They represent an uncompromising way to exercise our constitutional rights. Not everyone has a big box outfitter like Bass Pro, Cabela's, or Sportsman's Warehouse within driving distance, so we must make sure that our local community gun shop is not priced out of business by big box retailers or internet storefronts.
I dont have a FFL, so if the local gun stores go out of business I would have to drive halfway across my state to buy one at a Sportsman's Warehouse - wouldn't the Democrats consider that disenfranchisement?
Look, I know the importance of saving a buck or two or five, but all that I am saying here is that there is a greater good being served. I think it is becoming harder and harder for gun shops to stay in business and be profitable, and contributing to those who give us a viable and accessible source for guns, ammo, and gear is of the utmost importance. There are other effective ways to use your money to protect our right to bear arms other then just giving it to the NRA.
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I agree completely that we must support our local gun shops, but I won't pay excessively to do so. My area has only a couple full service gun retailers and I do business with the closest one to me as much as possible. However, since they have little competition they charge rediculous prices on some products. For example, I was planning on buying a PT1911 from this shop, but they wanted $700 and didn't want to negotiate. I have spent thousands of dollars in this store this year alone and can get this same gun from GB for around $550, so needless to say, I won't be purchasing this gun locally. (They won't even get the transfer fee as they want $50 when other FFLs in my area charge $10.) I help the local guy out when I can but when the difference in price is that great, I feel they have priced themselves out of competition and will shop elsewhere for that particular product with no guilt whatsoever. I don't waste their time, like others have mentioned in previous posts, and I won't waste my money.
Swoop
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Speaking as a local small retailer, you never know what the local guy paid. You may want it, and can get it, for a certain price but the dealer may have gotten it in just before a price decrease. He may have more money it that the big chain sells it for. DO NOT automatically assume that the local store is just trying to gouge you. It may just be as simple as the local dealer was gouged by the distributer. It is a FACT that the bigger the store, the better the price they get from the manufacturer. In my business, some big dealers can sell their product under their cost because the end of the year purchase goals and bonus' will still allow them to make a profit. I have payed the manufacturer, in some cases, far more than I can buy the exact same product for, from a wholesaler. In a way we have all been "Wal-martized", as a local pharmacist puts it in his advertising.
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I am a small business owner also, so I know exactly what your talking about. I realize my local gun shop cannot compete in price on everything, but with the PT1911, they had hiked their price by almost $200 over a 2 month period. Yes, I understand supply and demand and all that jazz, however I have been a VERY good customer (probably put atleast one kid through college) and expect, justified or not, a little give when they have increased their price to that degree. If not, then I go elswhere for that particular product with no shame. I would expect the same from my customers.
Swoop
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.........I have been a VERY good customer (probably put atleast one kid through college) and expect, justified or not, a little give when they have increased their price to that degree. If not, then I go elswhere for that particular product with no shame. I would expect the same from my customers.
Swoop
What do service/product do you sell?
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What do service/product do you sell?
Thanks to the hard work of my grandparents and parents, my brother and I have been left with a few irons in the fire. We own a restaurant which has been in continuous operation for over 50 years, a wholesale and retail floral business, and we also dabble in real estate. I realize these are not businesses in which you typically have to deal with price hagglers, but you can very easily price yourself out of contention for patronage. Especially in the floral business, sometimes our wholesale customers can get specific products cheaper elswhere, even though we try to bend a little for our better patrons. I don't blame them one bit, because, like I posted previously, it's impossible to be the cheapest on every single item and with today's economy, every dollar saved helps. So, when the same situation arises with my local gun shop, I don't feel bad about buying somewhere else. I won't buy somewhere else just to save a buck or two, but a couple hundred goes a long way toward other expenses.
Swoop