The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: 1776 Rebel on December 15, 2008, 06:58:35 PM
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Been reading MBs blog regards getting caught in NE winter freeze. Got me thinking (doesn't happen that often :) ).
We talk about SHTF types of situations but not every ugly event means fighting Zombies or Mad Max bands of bikers. What if your caught up in some event, maybe a natural one (like MB), where you and your loved ones are caught off guard. How about you took the family on a Sunday drive to Aunt Martha. Then bang. You have NO FOOD or WATER or HEAT or extended supply of MEDICINE for your kid. What was supposed to be 3 hours turns out to be 3 days in brutal conditions. Are you willing to apply your gun skills to stay alive? You come across a farmhouse, a pharmacy, a food store. You ask for help and are refused. They are in the same boat. GO AWAY. The owner/ proprietor makes it clear you won't get help there.
Do you take what is needed at the point of a gun? YOUR LIFE AND LOVED ONES depend on it. Do you kill to take it?
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No!
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Look at my signature. This is definitely one of those situations we can discuss. Given your parameters, (all of us in the same boat) it seems I can be the facilitator to get the other three together and we can help each other through the situation. I'll owe for my share, as I have apparently had a mental fart and removed the emergency supplies I always have in the back.
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My parameters are that if you walk away or don't get what you need someone dies. Talking ain't gonna help. Matter of fact it may just push the owner/propreitor to shoot you. Do you kill him first and take what you need or do you watch your child die?
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Still no. I'll figure it out w/o anyone getting hurt.
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Tough question. I can't imagine that if it was that bad and I was one on one with someone, I couldn't talk them into at least sharing a small portion for my child if nothing else. If it was medicine ( like diabetes medicine.. or something life threatening like that) and I was being flatly turned away......well.................lets just say.. when it comes to my child's life.. I will do what I have to do, in the least violent way possible.. and all circumstances are different, but I wouldn't ever give up on getting the "necessity's " I needed to save that life.
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I'll defend my family with my life but in your scenario, the hand your dealing is unplayable! Aces & 8's...damned if ya do, damned if ya don't...
Still No!
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This is why everyone should carry portable bug-out bags if at all possible...
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Several references come to mind.
If you have a chance rent the Gregory Peck movie The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit. It is a post WWII movie (a great one) and examines a solider adjusting to civilian life. In one scene he tries to describe to his wife how he slit the throat of a young german solider because it was cold and he needed the germans coat. Read Marcus Luttrells book Lone Survivor. Read how he struggles to this day if he should have killed in cold blood a couple of goat herders to protect his unit from detection. Utimately Lt. Mike Murphy would die in the combat earning the Medal of Honor. Could it have all been avoided? A green beret unit on recon got busted by an 8 year old girl. Should they shoot her and kill her quickly before others come?
Yes these are war related illustrations. And I am talking of a purely civilian situation. But the moral dilemma is the same. And trust me civilians get caught up in such moral morasses also. Live or die, and you don't have much time to either think about it or discuss it over tea. My own personal thoughts are not clear. I don't suppose to have an answer. I believe I am more in line with M'ette. My wife or kids are NOT going to die. Period. Full Stop.
Let me relate one more tid bit. A study was done on survivors of airplane crashes/fires. What came out was that the most likely to survive had nothing to do with preparation or training. You know what the major factor was? Those who showed no interest in the survival of others. They climbed over seats. They pushed people aside. Pure animal instinct. Live or die. They related how they felt guilt. But they were alive and the others had burned to death.
Of all places it was at the last years NRA annual meeting. The big banquet on Saturday night. It is on the second floor of the Marriott. One escalator up. Everyone has a couple of drinks in them from the reception on the first floor. They make an announcement to head upstairs. SEVERAL THOUSAND people start moving. The up escalator I swear is the fastest I have ever been on. People start piling onto each other as they spill out from the top of the escalator into a very small hallway to the banquet. If you don't know it, PEOPLE CAN DIE IN THIS SITUATION (Hello Walmart the other week!). My first thought was "oh excuse me"..."sorry may I step thru". In a matter of 10 seconds I realized that this was a SHTF situation. I'm not very tall nor strong at my age. I thought "heck I might just die tonight". I changed gears right then. I just drove thru a half dozen people and have no shame about it. It wasn't gonna be me.
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I agree that it's a tough one to give a definate answer. folks say NO I wouldn't but when people are desperate they will do things they would not normally do. Saw it in N.O., I agree with Marshal-ette in the fact that 99.9% of the people will do what it takes to save their child/loved one etc.
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No one can really say with certainty what they would do in any given situation until they have it thrust upon them. That being said, I am a Christian and I could not justify taking another life unless it is in self defense. My faith dictates that my needs will be met by my God. This may not be a popular nor credible answer to some of you, but it is the way I was raised and the way I believe. God has never let me down no matter what particular "lions' den" I have been thrown into.
Swoop
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Are you a terrorist? Is your life more valuble than someone elses life? What gives you the right to take a member of someone else's family away to save a member of your family? Are you God? Are you playing God? Is your family's live worth more than their family's? If you answer those questions truthfully I think you'll have the answer you need. I'm not a cold-blooded murderer. Are you?
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Fortunately I'm alone, and used to doing for myself. I'm in the middle of where MB was, towns all around me lost power, and a guy a couple towns over died, (from stupidity) I went to work same as normal, came home , did my usual stuff. This was no big deal I've seen a lot worse here.
But to answer your question, bearing in mind it's just me, NO. I'll work out a deal, make do, or do without. I may resort to LIVING like an animal, but I will not resort to thinking like one.
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I can't really say what I would do there, but if I was on the other side of the coin...
If you ask for help and I can, I will help. If you try to take what I have by force. I will defend it with deadly force.
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Hope I would never have to make the call on what crosses the line. But like others have said I would only use deadly force if it was do or die. And I have done all I could to keep from making that call.
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No one can really say with certainty what they would do in any given situation until they have it thrust upon them. That being said, I am a Christian and I could not justify taking another life unless it is in self defense. My faith dictates that my needs will be met by my God. This may not be a popular nor credible answer to some of you, but it is the way I was raised and the way I believe. God has never let me down no matter what particular "lions' den" I have been thrown into.
Swoop
+1
I carry my weapons for defense of my family first and myself second.
Unless in future dark times the need arises for a repeat performance of the Revolutionary War, I see no need for offensive use of said weapons.
That being said, I can only pray that I am never faced with that type of dilemma.
1776's question reminds me of the movie "John Q" with Denzel Washington. Similar type situation where a father seems to run out of options and takes the extreme path.
Thanks for making us THINK.
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The entire reason I am a survivalist is to avoid just that situation. PREPARE! If you are not prepared, if you do not have food, water, fuel, etc. you might well be placed in a position of stealing or dying. Get what you need to survive NOW, don't wait.
I tell everyone that being a survivalist is NOT about nuclear war, or an asteroid hitting the earth, it is about any disaster. If you lose your job it is a disaster, if you are caught in a blizzard it is a disaster. Real disasters happen all the time and they are just as bad for those caught in it as a world shattering mega-disaster. Get prepared because tomorrow will be what it will be and you have to be ready to deal with it.
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Good points, Warhawke. The media has portrayed the term 'survivalist' as the stereotypical loony running around the woods living off squirrels and shooting up everything with full-auto weapons.
Being a survivalist (in my mind) means being prepared to survive under any circumstance that may arise at a moments notice.
I must admit I am not prepared for extreme circumstances. But, thanks to this thread, I will work on it.
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Warhawke.. you are exactly right! I never go anyplace that I don't have all of my medicines and not just the allotted pills for the time I am gone. ( Except this last trip to Vegas for a we. God, I forgot my Premarin ( hormone) about 4 days into the trip I was having so many hot flashes you could have cooked an egg on my body.. LOL My moods stayed nice and level ( thank goodness) but my body was sure screaming for some estrogen.. LOL
But back to the subject.......don;t just randomly be prepared. be prepared and equipped as best you can all the time whether you are at home or away.
And I can't imagine not trying to help someone who knocked at my door that REALLY needed some help. I think for the most part, people still help people if it is a one on one situation and not a mob crowd mentality. I try to keep a full stocked everything plus quite a bit of extra for when the time comes I and others might need it.
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The entire reason I am a survivalist is to avoid just that situation. PREPARE! If you are not prepared, if you do not have food, water, fuel, etc. you might well be placed in a position of stealing or dying. Get what you need to survive NOW, don't wait.
I tell everyone that being a survivalist is NOT about nuclear war, or an asteroid hitting the earth, it is about any disaster. If you lose your job it is a disaster, if you are caught in a blizzard it is a disaster. Real disasters happen all the time and they are just as bad for those caught in it as a world shattering mega-disaster. Get prepared because tomorrow will be what it will be and you have to be ready to deal with it.
Warhawke I don't disagree with you. BUT...you have to admit that there is always the potential of you not having access to your stash, the stash being destroyed or taken from you. That puts you right back on square one. The body IMMEDIATELY starts the clock on thirst, hunger and cold. You have only so much time before they take their toll.
I do follow survival anecdotes and incidents. They happen in the most ideal locales. Remember a few years back when a hurricane blew thru the Virgin Islands unexpectedly. Devasted one of the islands. No help for a week before some ones navy arrived. The storm scraped the island clean.
It may be easy to say "I'm better than that" but take a look at the starving crowds of women and children pushing and shoving to get the food from the helicopter...A starving body will make you take the aggressors role.
Jumbofrank, I am neither a terrorist nor God, just a man wanting to live. My family is worth more than any other in my eyes. The natural rights of man gives me the right to survival. If I come across AN EMPTY HOUSE should I not break in for food and shelter because its againist the law? What rules do I follow? Survive or die.
I didn't say it would be easy to consider these things.
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I will do what is needed short of personal violence to exist. Hopefully charity will prevail, or a realization that we need to work together. In a TEOTWAWKI situation skills as well as tangible stores will be valued.
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It's questions like these that give people pause to open the door and offer assistance and who can blame them. I grew up in an area of Michigan that had NO locked doors. I never had a key to my home and never needed one!
The immorality of thinking that one mans right to survive trumps the rights of another is unconscionable! If this "Mad Max" scenario ever becomes reality, it is not a society worth saving!
As Tom has already said, I choose NOT to live like an animal...
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1776, I don't think Frank was accusing you, he was comparing the mindsets. This is one of the reasons I stay in NH, after most of 48 years here there is nothing I might need that I can not get out of nature in fact DURING the Ice storm that sparked 1776's thinking I pointed out to some one at work that if I had to I could get a meal out of the swamp across the parking lot,heat, shelter, there are lots of evergreens around here, my ax would make it easier but I can get by with the Swiss Army knife I ALWAYS have, (it's why I bought that particular model) evergreens provide boughs for shelter, or shelter building in the longer term and are a reliable source of dry wood for heat, but with the magnesium chips I stored in my bottle of "lifeboat" matches I can start a fire with pavement ;D. Water ? I live 200 yards from one of the largest lakes on the east coast, got another little one 100 yards in another direction for back up ;D
It's questions like these that give people pause to open the door and offer assistance and who can blame them. I grew up in an area of Michigan that had NO locked doors. I never had a key to my home and never needed one!
The immorality of thinking that one mans right to survive trumps the rights of another is unconscionable! If this "Mad Max" scenario ever becomes reality, it is not a society worth saving!
As Tom has already said, I choose NOT to live like an animal...
The question is not the problem Timothy, the question gets us thinking about things BEFORE you find yourself saying, "OH OH, I'm screwed." It also reminds us that many in society ALREADY think like animals when things are normal, remember the guy trampled in Wal Mart because a sale is more important than a human life ?
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I still don't see any justifiable reason to kill someone because I want something they have. I'm pretty sure there are commandmants against that type of thing.
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1776, I don't think Frank was accusing you, he was comparing the mindsets.
Tom I fully understand. That is why I posed the question. I do like to hear how folks go thru the decision tree of life. As I said I don't have answers on this one. I THINK I know what my moral framework is. I THINK I know how I might react. But just like the Donner party or those soccer players in the Andes I might have to end up eating my friends to stay alive. I pray that we here are smarter than the average bear and can either stay out of such situations or McGiver our way out of them before it comes to such a difficult choice. God help us if it does.
P.S. I wouldn't necessarily shoot to kill the owner/propriotor. Maybe a round or two at his feet might stir his "servants heart".
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1776 thanks for posting this question. I like to see the mind sets and see some points on views I haven't.
Growing up loving the outdoors,hunting,fishing,traping,camping I have seen the need for survival skills. Tom has brought up some great points. Knowing how to make a shelter, starting a fire is a REAL life saver. As we all have said I hope we will never have to know what happens when our personal line is crossed. The more we know better we will be to make those calls if need be.
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By the way I know how we would all like to take various courses at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch etc. I have watched as these schools themselves have evolved over the years to include different scenarios etc. But just as high up on my life list are a couple of schools (not exhaustive at all, you can google for more) that are survival skills based schools. I agree that knowledge is always better to have than not. You can check them out...
http://www.boss-inc.com/
http://www.trackerschool.com/
http://www.jackmtn.com/
http://www.mountainshepherd.com/index/
And finally a great website hosted by Doug Ritter on survival gear:
http://www.equipped.com/
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The first place you must prepare is between your ears. Your supplies might be lost or stolen but training goes with you. Stay smart and get trained to survive and you can stay alive after being dropped nekid in the Rocky Mountains, a stupid untrained person would die in a fully stocked Wal-mart.
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You mind is your primary weapon. Use it. I was Red Cross certified in basic first aid when I was 11 years old and learned CPR later on. Believe it on not you'll be able to remember your survival training decades later. Especially after you've survived a few situations you didn't think you would live through. And you'll pick up some habits that stay with you.
I always carry a lighter and not just because I like starting fires. A fire is one of the most important things after having some drinking water. Water is easy to find around here so I don't always carry it with me. If I'm not near one of the great lakes, the other 11,000 lakes, or 13,000 miles of rivers, that's okay, I know how to make a solar still. I always have at least one knife on me and quite often two of them. I feel naked without one. Gutting animals is a lot easier when you don't have to use your teeth. ;D Be prepared. I was shown how to rip the head off a chicken and drink it's blood, and how to crack a snake like a whip to break it's neck. I know a bit about butchering and anatomy. Don't forget, people are made of meat too. I know some of the edible species of plants and I've eaten some mighty tasty insects. I'm going to survive on my own like I always do.