The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: JohnJacobH on June 28, 2007, 09:03:09 PM
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Mr. Bane,
In your podcast you juxtaposed car carry of a battle rife*hi tech carbine* with the recent Juneteeth mob homicide of a passenger in a vehicle related
injury of a child.
While I frequently carry a car rifle ranging from a 30-30 lever action to sporterized beater Enfield bolt action I could not run the scenario you proposed
through my head without stumbling on issues such as overpenetration or weapon retention.
It would seem to me in this scenario a pistol would be as effective if not superior to a underfolder AK 47.
Short of absolute Apocalypse even a pistol caliber carbine would be as much a liability as an aid in an urban riot assault on an individual in a vehicle.
Other scenarios, vehicle to vehicle, or cross country off road travel an Ak 47 maybe more useful but still not as useful overall as an accurate 300-500 yard .308.
Please correct my misperception at your earliest convenience. Many thanks.
Best regards,
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Okay, I probably should have read the June 20 Blog and comments before I posted about the June 27 Podcast.
Most of the comments I would have made are already covered in one fashion or another.
The most serious point: if you are afraid to leave the scene of an accident, you should be terrified of loading an
AK 47 and firing even in the vicinity of a drunken, drugged out mob attacking your car.
I know Mr. Bane is old enough to remember Kent State, where a group of hapless National Guard fired their
rifles at an angry mob and managed not to kill or injure any of their assailants but did manage to kill or injure students
on the other side of campus on their way to class.
Target selection should be on the closest, most immediate threats and the opening that creates should be used to
drive as far and fast as you can in your vehicle.
The Juneteenth type mob attack illustrates more than ever the need for a short barreled (yes, sawed off) magazine fed
semi-auto shotgun. The exact type the government has inexplicably labeled illegal.
Short of that, a pistol of some sort, maybe a Tauras 410 Shotshell Revolver.
Just my humble two cents in inflation adjusted Euros.
Best regards,
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shotgun makes some pros, but still has a bunch of cons. A-Numero-Uno
he need for a short barreled (yes, sawed off) magazine fed
semi-auto shotgun. The exact type the government has inexplicably labeled illegal.
Notice even the person pushing for them addmit ILLEGAL!!
So what is a law abiding American with out classIII or NFA firearms to do.........AK or other hightech rifle seem to be the perfect go to. Let me just point out a little problem with the likeness of "Kent State" vs."Juneteenth".......undertrained National Guard vs. Citizen in fear of his/her/family/friend safty. Let me tell yall something, pull one of mine out of the car...........hope that person can pray to the Almighty like the Micromachine Guy, talk about flashback, because there time is coming to a end at about 1100fps. The seriousness in which i speek is grand. And if there is a mad mob. I hope I remember the face of my father and my aim is true. But then again a mob is a big target. So IMHO the situation grew extreme after the person left the car, which is way to late to hit-n-run, and the passanger would/sould of drew the hightech rifle to engage mob. Which is done faster with a hightech rifle rather than a shotgun. If you cant own hightech then shotgun is good choice but another opinion of mine, which I have many :) , is the barrel lenght of 18in. at least is needed due to the extreme spred of the shot and "garbage" and nontargets being hit all in one trigger pull. Why a gun company doesnt put more choke in defence gun is a wonder to me. But then again i have many question with the way things are. ;D ??? ::)
tex
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Tex it looks like we were trying to answer at the same time, johnjacobh, has some valid points but, this particular situation has a lot of concerns, and angles. What is the first priority " to live", our subjects were obviously concerned over their actions and wanted to help. The crowd, were obviously not concerned about their concern or reaction to the event. As I understand it, the little girl was ok, the crowd was enraged and took action " mob mentality action" and killed this man. Regardless of weapon selection, let's dissect this.
1) The deceased went into a heavily populated area of revelers, and was party to someone who hit " a child ", he was not the driver so he was attached, but did not commit the offense. rule #1 don't be somewhere if there is a high probability something bad can happen.
2) The operator of the car, got out leaving the passenger with nothing to work with. In good faith yes, in retrospect not a good decision. Who knew the mobs mindset?
3) " when confronted with superiour numbers, run in circles scream and shout " Heinlein.
4) This was a very delicate situation, in my opinion, the moment they got out of the car, they were toast.
5) What could they have done? I think nothing, they were vulnerable from the get go. If they even suspected the mindset of the crowd, they should have put it in reverse, and got out of there and called the police. Knowing they were leaving the scene of an accident. But these individuals thought of the child first, as most of us would.
6) Now as to the solution to the unwinnable scenario. If both participants had ccw, and were both armed. The instant of agression, could have presented arms and MAYBE, pushed the crowd back, and that is a big maybe. If they had battle rifles, yes they could fight their out, but what would happen after that?
7) I hope we all learn a lesson from this, Don't go where we should not be, and if the worst happens, get out of there. Where we want to go, and where we should go are 2 different places.
8) This unfortunately is a very good scenario of what can happen, when we try to do the right thing.
I hope all of us will review this situation, and comment.
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ex it looks like we were trying to answer at the same time
someone once said something about "minds thinking alike"......... but dont remember how the rest goes ;D
Well said m25operator, but life is full of "Bad desisions" which we all wish we could do over. Bad situations can always be solved with superior firepower. Well.........most of the time anyhow. ;)
tex
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this particular situation has a lot of concerns, and angles. While the first priority is " to live", our subjects were obviously concerned over their actions and wanted to help.
Mr. Bane's point of view seemed to be the need for everyone to be prepared so if an unruly drunken and drugged mob in one city attacks a vehicle the unruly
drunken and drugged mob in another city that mimics the behaviour of the first mob will get a nasty surprise from the muzzle of a battle rifle, preferably an Ak underfolder with the magazine in the drivers side door pocket and the rifle nekkid and exposed behind the seat.
This is the kind of legalistic hoop jumping that can get people killed. As you said, if you think you are about to be beset by an unruly mob, drive away! And if you think you will need a battle rifle you may as well just load it up and have it next to you ala the United States Armed Forces in Iraq.
My question was why a long range cartridge in those circumstances? A shotgun or pistol would effectively do as much to calm things down and you would not
see your picture on the front page of the New York Times as a wild and crazy guy who fired into a mob from hundreds of feet away.
Best regards,
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And if you think you will need a battle rifle you may as well just load it up and have it next to you ala the United States Armed Forces in Iraq.
My question was why a long range cartridge in those circumstances? A shotgun or pistol would effectively do as much to calm things down and you would not
see your picture on the front page of the New York Times as a wild and crazy guy who fired into a mob from hundreds of feet away.
John, if I understand the postings so far, you are NOT against being armed and prepared, you just believe that a shotgun or more likely a pistol would do in the situation being discussed. I tend to agree. We all have our preferences. However, I believe the New York Tiimes would still portray a person as "wild and crazy guy who fired into a mob..." even while protecting is own life.
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John, if I understand the postings so far, you are NOT against being armed and prepared, you just believe that a shotgun or more likely a pistol would do in the situation being discussed. I tend to agree. We all have our preferences. However, I believe the New York Tiimes would still portray a person as "wild and crazy guy who fired into a mob..." even while protecting is own life.
In my first post I referred to the lever action or bolt action that is my usual car carry rifle.
Mr. Bane has mentioned this mob scenario in at least three places that I am aware- two podcasts and a blog post. Given he has the ear of some of the best combat instructors in the business I imagine there is some basis for his suggestions.
My difficulty is walking through the various aspects.
Some aspects seem to be based on the current legal State of The Union (it is verboten to carry an actual loaded rifle in your car) and other aspects seem to ignore that exact same legal State of The Union (do not leave the scene of a collision even if you are about to be murdered, but definitely fire long range cartridges in all directions to pacify the crowd)
In sum, yes, I believe for this specific instance a pistol or short barreled shotgun would be a superior choice and yes, any thing a person says or does or does not say or does not do is likely to become fodder for the New York Times front page. The good news, no one really reads that paper anymore, especially the ruling class.
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Mr. Bane,
In your podcast you juxtaposed car carry of a battle rife*hi tech carbine* with the recent Juneteeth mob homicide of a passenger in a vehicle related
injury of a child.
While I frequently carry a car rifle ranging from a 30-30 lever action to sporterized beater Enfield bolt action I could not run the scenario you proposed
through my head without stumbling on issues such as overpenetration or weapon retention.
It would seem to me in this scenario a pistol would be as effective if not superior to a underfolder AK 47.
Short of absolute Apocalypse even a pistol caliber carbine would be as much a liability as an aid in an urban riot assault on an individual in a vehicle.
Other scenarios, vehicle to vehicle, or cross country off road travel an Ak 47 maybe more useful but still not as useful overall as an accurate 300-500 yard .308.
Please correct my misperception at your earliest convenience. Many thanks.
A few thoughts from a former urban dweller.
Weapon: I think MB is right, although the issue in my mind is more one of capacity and cover than over-penetration. IF you use a shotgun, even with an extended ammo tube, you are limited to 8 or 9 rounds, at which point the bad guys will be on you. And, at the ranges we are discussing, each round will drop 1 person due to lack of effective spread. A second person may be slowed or incapacitated if they are close enough, reasonable in a crowd situation.
Lever action rifle? Even worse, as there is time between shots - most of us are not SASS champions able to lever out 9 rounds in 2 seconds.
Handgun? Worse yet. Once you empty the 5 rounds from The Judge (.410/45LC) what do you do? Ask the crowd to wait while you reload?
So the small hi-tech carbine with multiple 30-round capacity magazines seems reasonable for some of the urban confrontations. It is also reasonable that you will be arrested and sued if your ball ammo goes through the bad guys who you target and starts hitting non-targets beyond the attacking crowd.
Interesting question - would it change anything to use frangible ammo in the car magazines to limit the over-penetration issue?
Michael keeps quoting someone who says the only reason to own a handgun is to allow him to get to his rifle. Seems like MB's solutions - carbine behind passenger seat, loaded magazines in driver's door pouch - is reasonable in light of this as well.
Threats: As the crowd moves in, and you start shooting at the closest/highest risk targets, MOST of the crowd will start screaming and running away. A few will increase their threat by coming after you quickly and seriously, perhaps even drawing their own weapons. If you are alone and out of the vehicle, you are dead the moment you fire the first shot, as you cannot cover 360 degrees effectively. If you have someone to cover your 6, both of you have a chance at survival.
M25 is right in that it is best not to be where bad things start to happen, or to try to get away if they are already happening. I personally do not know why this driver and passenger were where they were. In Chicago, where Junteenth riots happen every year it seems, and always in public Forest Preserves, maybe you are where you are trying to enjoy the limited outdoor space provided to the citizens of Daley's Hell. It does not matter WHY you are there, only that you ARE there when bad things start going down. Of course, if you're in Daley's Hell, you can't even own a hi-tech rifle, or a handgun for that matter. Daley's laws seem to have stopped the gang bangers' shootings though /sarcasm-off
It is better to have a weapon and not need it, than to need it and not to have it. These are tough times, and getting tougher. So if you already carry a wheel gun or 1911 as a car gun, carrying a carbine in the car seems a mild escalation in response to the realities of the day.
This thread is impetus to me getting my Mini-14 either a folding stock or that bullpup stock I've been eyeballing.
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This is to johnjacobh more than anyone else, my previous post shows my position, but luckily in the great State of Texas, there are no laws concerning the transportation of long guns, no law to break, unless you brandish it. Loaded, unloaded it's legal, as of september 1st 07, the same is true about handguns, unless you belong to a gang or are doing something illegal, but not a traffic violation.
But I would like to turn this post away from armament to a not what would you do, to a what could you have done scenario. Best case, Worst case, of course do to the outcome, We know the worst case or close to it, only one of them died. Regardless of your ability to respond, what would come next?
I invite MB, WALT RAUCH, hell even John Farnham to give this a look, I wish uncle Jeff was around to view it too.
On a lighter note. This is the Kobioshi Maru, the unwinnable scenario, it would be live or die, kill or be killed, and how many go with you. There is no winner. Only survivors.
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I invite MB, WALT RAUCH, hell even John Farnham to give this a look, I wish uncle Jeff was around to view it too.
I agree. So what happened to this topic/thread? Will it just die a slow, uncertain death?
Best regards,
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Yes indeed...the Kobayashi Maru conundrum!
For those of you who missed the last 50,000 repeats of Star Trek, here's the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru
A little background, here...as I mentioned somewhere, as a journalist, I've been fascinated by large-scale urban riots. I've been in several pretty scary ones, including the triaging of neighborhoods in Memphis after the death of Dr. King; the May Day demonstrations/riots in Washington D.C.; the Weathermen assault on the South Vietnamese embassy on Dupont Circle; some of the Overtown riots in Miami and a few assorted smaller events. I was in New York City for the '76 black-out with its rolling mini-riots. I have been clubbed, tear-gassed, arrested several times (and released on my press — get-out-of-jail-free — card), had various and sundry guns pointed at me, etc.
Several things stuck with me (in addition to the damned pepper gas):
1) Large urban riots can be seen as an almost organic entities — they can branch and spread like limbs from a tree, or they can go full viral (like the Rodney King riots in LA). They often defy prediction, as they can go viral, "jump" from area to area, for any number of reasons.
2) They are pure chaos systems in that they grow, spread and die based on the intentions and interactions of the individuals who have been drawn into the, for lack of a better word, vortex of the main riot. It was amazing to me how the group can be inflamed and led by often a single individual with an agenda or a massive hard-on. Because intention and interaction are singular events, the ferocity and speed of the riot can ebb and flow seemingly without regard to rationality.
3) What I refer to as "social dislocations" — events like a large urban riot or, say, Katrina — can be contageous on a larger scale and spread city-to-city.
4) Because of the chaotic nature of the event, it's easier to get caught in a riot than one might think — even if you're paying attention.
5) Most people don't even pay attention...as I said in the podcast, I was perpetually amazed at the number of people who just wandered into a riot zone..."well, this is how I always drive home!"
The Juneteenth situation is no different. My friend and fellow cave diver Michael Menduno was the first person to suggest, years ago when he ran a technical dive magazine, that every death in cave diving needed a full "incident report," an analysis of what went wrong, what failed, what safety rules were broken. Menduno theorized — correctly — that an analysis of deaths would yield not a plethora of individualized reasons/causes of death, but a sequence of small mistakes or missteps that led ultimately to a "non-recoverable" situation. By studying those missteps, we could synthesize Real World safety standards. If we look back at the Juneteenth situation with 20-20 hindsight, we can evolve a series of mistakes or missteps that are probably be ported over to any social dislocation situation.
1) "Don't be there!" Rule 1...when the feces hits the shredder, don't be there. This requires paying attention to your own locale and the world around you. I recommend you do what I (and virtually every other trainer I know) does...we alter our own personal "readiness" based on national social issues, disruptions, anything out of the ordinary. I laughingly refer to it as my own personal Def-Con, the old military "defense condition" standard. Or you can think about it as assigning a variation of Cooper's color coding to the macro situation. Def-Con 3 is normal; nothing out of the ordinary going on; Def-Con 2 is something worrisome happening nationally, say a Katrina in New Orleans or a Rodney King riot in LA. In 2, I am making sure I am "not there" should something blow up...I am careful of my driving routes; if I am traveling, I limit my exposure to unknown areas as much as possible. If I'm on the road in Def-Con 3, I might look for a restaurant I read about or go out to a movie; In Def-Con 2, it's whatever's on teevee at the hotel and room service or delivered pizza. In Def-Con 2, I will typically be heavier armed...I might go from my usual carry gun, a Sig Sauer 225 9mm, to a higher capacity 226 and at least two additional magazines on my person. If I am traveling by car in Def-Con 2, I will add a second, usually long, gun [IN ACCORDANCE WITH LOCAL LAWS, WHICH IS WHY I LIVE IN COLORADO, FOLKS!]. I have at various times carried a folding stock Mini-14 .223, a folding stock Remington 870 12 or 20 gauge or a collapsable stock AR-15. At various times while traveling to jurisdictions with hostile gun laws, I have CAREFULLY chosen firearms which are in compliance with the local laws. For example, I have a folding stock 20 gauge single shot that, in its locked plastic case is legal most everywhere...not my first choice, but surely better than a sharp stick. In the highest level of readiness, Def-Con 1, my impulse is to GO TO GROUND. The morning of 9/11 is a good example...I have no idea what is going on; I don't want to be on the roads or in the air; I don't want to be away from home base.
2) "Don't Leave the Car!" Pretty simple, huh? Car is Big Powered Metal Box that easily makes IPSC Major power factor! I talked about this a lot in TRAIL SAFE, The car gives me a chance to get away. I like my car. I like calling 911 and saying there is an assault in progress! I like running like a scared bunny in big metal box! If I am surrounded and people are moving on my car, I will fall back on what one of the top defensive/evasion/escape drivers in the world (he works with the military) calls "Baghdad Rules" — accelerator down; guns deployed but down. I am in fear of for my life and the lives of my passengers — which is why I have deployed the gun — and my first responsibility is to get out of the killing zone. The first responsibility of the people outside my car is to get the hell out of my way.
3) "If You Have to Shoot, Aim for Armed People and/or Apparent Leaders Who Are Actively Assaulting You!" People with weapons are your primary threat...guns & impact weapons like bricks are more of a threat to you in a car than knives or harsh language. Someone running toward your car holding a concrete block and screaming, "Kill them! Kill them!" is a primary threat because they can kill you kill you, breach your protective metal box and possibly, depending on how the windshield shatters and where the block lands, render you unable to drive away and/or defend yourself and your passengers. You are NOT "hosing the crowd!" You are NOT "firing for effect" or firing to"keep their heads down." You are firing in response to a grave threat against your life or the life of your passengers. One of the reasons I prefer a carbine over a shotgun is that an AR or an AK is more of a close-quarters surgical instrument than a shotgun, especially with a red dot optic like the military Aimpoint (which I have on two of my ARs). In terms of potential ammo penetration, Hornady TAPS in .223 are designed for close quarters work and designed to be less penetrative; shotgun buckshot and slugs are fiercely penetrative...moreso than we tend to think. Secondly, the standard capacity magazine for the AR is 30 rounds; for a shotgun with an extended tube, eight rounds. I am hoping for intimidation; if I don't get it, I want lots of rounds. The AR is designed to be swifty reloaded; the shotgun can be awkward to reload (Don't believe me? Go to a 3-gun match and what what happens when the shooter has to reload the shotgun in a constrained space).
In this situation, the reason I would favor a long gun over a handgun is, hopefully, an intimidation effect. Crowds aren't unconditionally stupid...in Miami, some store owners sat on top of their businesses with semiauto Thompsons and ARs...those businesses were spared. A long gun is more visible to a crowd than a handgun, and is generally perceived as more "dangerous." I am in my car, remember...if the crown is intimidated, it will tend to move away from said car, giving me the opportunity to drive away in the big metal box! I want some kind of red-dot optic on the rifle (or shotgun)...they are the easiest sights in the world to shoot, and in a super-tense situation where your life is threatened, you want EVERY SINGLE ADVANTAGE you can get. The handgun is the back-up, your final fallback if the car itself is breached. That scenario is why Bill Rogers at the Rogers Shooting School (which specializes in Feds and active duty military) puts such an emphasis on weak-hand shooting...you steer with your strong hand!
4) "If You're in a Juneteenth Situation and You Have to Leave the Scene because You are in Fear for Your Life, Don't Go Home!" Do it by the numbers...call 911 the instant you can after the accident; if you even think there's an injury, request an ambulance on the scene; call 911 again if a crowd threatens and tell them you are in fear for your and your passengers' lives and to warm incoming paramedics that a dangerous situation has developed; if you are forced to leave the scene, call 911 YET AGAIN and tell them that you have left the scene out of fear for your life, but you will be waiting for the police at "X" nearby intersection. I suggest, if possible, to remain on the phone with the 911 operators until the police arrive at your location. If you have deployed your firearm/firearms, un-deploy them...handgun back in holster; additional gun back to its resting place. As soon as the police get there, call your lawyer and do exactly what your lawyer tells you.
Some situations are lose-lose, as the Kobayashi Maru scenario points out. When I used to give talks about risk management, one of my big points was that the first lesson of surviving in a chaos system, be it nature or combat, was to first understand that you were in a chaos situation and that your greatest chance of survival lay in your mental flexibility. And as the first smart monkey learned back there on the plains of Africa, it doesn't hurt to have tools, either.
I hope this clarifes my postings...any more questions, ask. I'll see if I can get a couple of other trainers to chime in...
Michael B
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Micheal,
Excellent Advise.
If you need to shoot people in this situation you will need to justify every shot: I shot Junior because he had a cinder block, I shot Bubba because he was draging my wife out of the car.
I would say stay on the cell phone, do not hang up. Repeat a mantra, "Get way, Drop the weapon, I have called the police", what ever, just keep it up because it will be used by the court. You'll come off much better than, " I'm going to kill you(*& )(*!"
Jeff Gonzales wrote something to the effect that it was nice of Mercedes to put that front sight on the car. Use it and get away. Even if you move at 10-15 mile an hour you should be able to push your vehicle through a crowd. Movement makes you a difficult target.
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Good points Michael...
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In WA cannot have a loaded rifle in car- OK is seem to have a loaded magazine not inserted. Thought of my Underfolder ak-47 semi-auto with a full magazine attached/ not inserted with a rubber band. Have to find some low penetration rounds? HP I have would over penetrate. Was thinking of the Hi-Point carbine but there does not seem to be any reliable high capacity Magazines.
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Here's a note from Ed Head, the Numero Uno at GUNSITE, about the thread:
Michael,
I think you are very much on target. The problem with allowing these discussions to become endless "what if...?" scenarios is that they also,
inevitably, become unwinnable.
We get this from time to time at Gunsite with clients who want a specific answer for every possible variable or event. There are many problems
with this, such as the laws in various jurisdictions and the fact that all of us have widely different experiences and training, all of which
will have an impact on our decision making. My telling you what I might do, or have done, under some circumstance does not necessarily mean that
would be a good choice for you.
The bottom line is be be alert, aware, well informed and to avoid some situations as much as possible. The best (gun) fight is the one you don't
attend. I don't do biker bars on Saturday night, I avoid large crowds, such as in stadium sporting events, and I don't go on sailing vacations
in hurricane season. It's just common sense, as well as coming from a properly trained and exercised mindset.
And, risking the nit-picking of others, my personal metal box is a 4X4 PU. Besides the Colt LW Commander I carry daily there is extra
ammunition, an EMT level medical kit, three SureFire flashlights with extra batteries, an M1 carbine (sometimes an AR15 shorty), a machete, a
Glock 10mm, a fire starting kit and a selection of good music for the CD player on board, at a minimum, at all times. Paranoid? I think not...
Keep stirring things up, Michael.
DVC,
Ed Head
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Good responses Michael and Ed, Absolutely the best place to be is anywhere but there, and the best place to have your weapon when you know theres going to be trouble, is in your hand. One point I was trying to make if you were in the chaos, and had to retailiate, is to use what law enforcement is taught, be the most professional, serious person you can be, let the crowd have no doubt of your intent, and ability to carry it out. Give them an option, but get out of there as quickly as possible, no one knows if this would have helped in this situation, it was not only mob mentality, but being a celebration, the chances of alcohol and drugs would be greater for that many people at that time of day.
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. Besides the Colt LW Commander I carry daily there is extra
ammunition, an EMT level medical kit, three SureFire flashlights with extra batteries, an M1 carbine (sometimes an AR15 shorty), a machete, a
Glock 10mm, a fire starting kit and a selection of good music for the CD player on board, at a minimum, at all times.
not saying to much "outside-the-box" here, but if you want a instant riot stopper you need Naphlam or Quad 50's. That machette is the perfect "gotta" tool when the mob has pulled one of yours out and you dont want to send rounds tward them. There is very little training need to use one and they are short dough. WallieWorld has them under $10. As for the other armed lowlifes, when you lop-off one of thier arms it makes the others think twice and very hard to accomplish the onearmed, running toward your car holding a concrete block and screaming, "Kill them! Kill them!" is a primary threat because they can kill you kill you, breach your protective metal box and possibly, depending on how the windshield shatters and where the block lands, render you unable to drive away and/or defend yourself and your passengers.
Just an opinion. Michael B should get Michael Janich or other expert to advise machette use in very "close quarter" defense against large numbers of threats. Remember the number one thing that is disturbing about Juneteenth was the pulling of passanger from seat. Very few people I would let ride shotgun with me that I would just write-off and driveaway from. VERY FEW !
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Here's a note from Ed Head, the Numero Uno at GUNSITE, about the thread:
The bottom line is be be alert, aware, well informed and to avoid some situations as much as possible. The best (gun) fight is the one you don't
attend. I don't do biker bars on Saturday night, I avoid large crowds, such as in stadium sporting events, and I don't go on sailing vacations
in hurricane season. It's just common sense, as well as coming from a properly trained and exercised mindset.
And, risking the nit-picking of others, my personal metal box is a 4X4 PU. Besides the Colt LW Commander I carry daily there is extra
ammunition, an EMT level medical kit, three SureFire flashlights with extra batteries, an M1 carbine (sometimes an AR15 shorty), a machete, a
Glock 10mm, a fire starting kit and a selection of good music for the CD player on board, at a minimum, at all times. Paranoid? I think not...
Keep stirring things up, Michael.
DVC,
Ed Head
Mr. Bane,
This is a real good answer from Mr. Head. Of course, he left out the 100' of rope and another 100'feet of parachute cord, a couple of those sealed sardine can
survival kits, water bottles, pocket carry emergency blankets and a vest to pack it all in to carry across country without looking like you are a lost hiker with a knapsack on your back. But other than that he is a man after my own heart.
I am also glad to learn from the previous post that you think it is a good idea to drive away from a homicidal mob.
I have not had the good fortune to attend every major riot in the last half century ( so what agency of the National Intelligence Community do you work for exactly?) but I have lived in cities where the thin veneer of civilization was stretched to the snapping point and I was not amused.
The worst thing about those experiences was the first thing to fail were things like the cellular phone net. It became impossible to contact your loved ones,
connect with the authorities and just generally get solid information about what exactly is afoot.
Something as simple as a bank robbery with helicoptors overhead, police redirecting traffic in all directions and the only answer you get from the newsroom is:
we have been told not to talk about it until tonight's broadcast. WHAT?
So there is nothing on radio or TV and the only chatter from the local newsbreak crowd is" mum's the word". Maybe if I got one of those secret Masonic Decoder
rings they would open up to me.
In any case if Apocalyse comes in my lifetime I will probably have a rifle with me, even if it is not an AK Underfolder. I still can not see using it on a mob of drunk and crazy Juneteenth nitwits. If Rodney King comes to live in my city, that is another story.
Best regards,