The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on December 21, 2008, 09:37:08 PM
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I did a search and know the Blackhawk SERPA holster has been mentioned many times here, but I couldn't find anything related to what I'm about to ask. I know there are quite a few IDPA and other style shooters (most more learned than I) and many range members here so maybe you all can clue me in.
OK, I've been looking at a lot of web info on various defense schools and also looking into different matches in my area. Several have a statement in the class requirements or range rules section specifically forbidding the use of SERPA holsters.
I was just wondering why this is.
I have been using a SERPA CQC on a daily basis for a year now with no troubles but was wondering if there was something (safety-wise or other) causing such an issue for them not to be allowed.
Thanks,
PegLeg
8)
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Good question, and thanks for asking!
I've wondered the same because of a response I got once. Please don't take this as an answer, because it is only a reply I got by a shooter at a club: His response was that in situations where retention is required it gives an "unfair advantage" over the standard strap and snap system that traditionally used.
One thought I had was that it is similar to the Production list used by USPSA - It needs to be presented to the organization by the manufacturer for approval, and Serpa has not gone through the process.
Just a response I received and a thought I had.
I'd love to hear an official response.
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Here is one good reason.
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=45333&highlight=serpa
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Wow. I was looking at those too. Not looking anymore.
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Very good point made by Suarez.
But, on the CQC Serpa holster (I am in no way defending the serpa, just pointing out something based on the model I use) there is a guard that completely blocks the trigger until the finger is off the safety retention device and the gun has cleared the holster
(see photo).
I did notice that it is a smaller area on some models and that may be one reason they are banned based on Suarez's statement. Better to ban them all instead of trying to select a few based on a certain criteria (I can understand that point).
I am in no way trying to stir up a hornets nest, just wanting info.
***EDIT: I should clarify (after SigShooter's post) I am comfortable with my SERPA and will continue to use it also. When drawing my Glock, my finger is never near the trigger (no more so than any other holster I have for it) at any time during the draw stroke.
PegLeg
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The training staff at the armed guard class I took insisted that the Serpas aren't safe. They believe that because there is a little hook that grabs the trigger GUARD, it will magically press the trigger through it's full stroke and discharge the pistol.
I realize people who teach these classes are typically very experienced with firearms, but from time to time, experts aren't just aren't experts. I own a Serpa holster and will be using it once my armed guard card comes back from the state. There's no way in hell I'm giving it up.
Look into the holster and you will see that yes, it does grab the gun by the trigger guard, but there's really no way for the pistol to be shoved in far enough to get to the trigger and press it all the way through. It's difficult to tell if it even touches the trigger with the gun in place (My example is for the P220/P226, don't know about other models).
I always listen to my instructors and do what they say in a class, but that doesn't mean that I'll believe everything they tell me and follow only what they say and not come up with any solutions of my own.
Mojave Desert's link describes an issue that is basically not an issue for me. Finger off the trigger no matter what holster is the golden rule. Doesn't matter if you have to hit a release near the area of the trigger, under no circumstances do you touch the trigger unless you intend to shoot. Remember, there are no accidents in the world of firearms.
I do appreciate Mojave Desert bringing that link up though, that's not something I've heard before. Or maybe that's what my instructors were trying to say about them and didn't communicate it effectively to me. I used it in my class. They knew I and another had them. Neither of us had any problems and they didn't ask us not to use them.
Bottom line, I have a Serpa and I won't have anything else for open carry. End of Story.
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If I have to fight a bad guy off my gun in the holster... the shit has already destroyed the fan.
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If you're using a SERPA to keep the gun out of the BG hands, you may be in for a rude surprise. Recently (within the last few years) retired NYC cop told me the holster he had was supposed to make it 'impossible' for anyone but the cop to access the gun when properly holstered. Except some BG found a way to get the pistol from both in front and behind and apparently grapevined the info through the prison system.
In a stressful situation, the monkey muscles take over and fine motor coordination suffers. I can see this possibly causing an issue with the trigger finger being pushed towards the trigger as you draw. You may not be able to stop the finger travel as the force applied is probably more under stress than you normally would use, and you probably won't even realize it. Duration/distance of finger travel may be longer too.
Borrowing jumbofrank's 2 cents he saved on rock salt from Home Depot v Lowes.
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I knew that 2 cents worth would come in handy. ;) Now I'm wondering what kind of holster I should use. I have a molded leather holster from Dillon that holds on okay without any snaps, strap, or buttons, but it's for a 3" gun and now I have a 3.5" gun too. I was looking to get another holster and wonder if I should get one with a thumb snap. Some of the Kydex holsters look like they'll hold on tight without a strap.
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Every leather holster I have ever had without a thumb-break eventually loosened up too much to trust with retention.
The kydex holsters that I have, and many that I have looked at retain the gun by squeezing at the trigger guard (I know some high-end holsters use other means).
If your grasp of the gun is the same every time, your trigger finger will always be in the same location during the draw stroke, regardless of holster type.
I understand the point is that the release on the serpa 'might' cause 'extra' inward pressure of the trigger finger. On mine, if you press in on the release and move the gun upward with the finger straight, the trigger finger ends up on the side of the frame (directly above the trigger opening) right where you would place it when in the low-ready position.
If you are prone to put your finger on the trigger too soon, the holster may not be the problem.
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I knew that 2 cents worth would come in handy. ;) Now I'm wondering what kind of holster I should use. I have a molded leather holster from Dillon that holds on okay without any snaps, strap, or buttons, but it's for a 3" gun and now I have a 3.5" gun too. I was looking to get another holster and wonder if I should get one with a thumb snap. Some of the Kydex holsters look like they'll hold on tight without a strap.
Make your own!
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-holsters-carry-options/39371-make-your-own-kydex-holster.html (http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-holsters-carry-options/39371-make-your-own-kydex-holster.html)
(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/mhm2a/Jan09_0010.jpg)
Paracordsecrets.com had a really good section on making kydex holsters w/belt clips, iwb mag carriers, etc. But I see the site is on godaddy now... >:(
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FWIW, every single piece of gear we use (including the pistol) can malfunction and can cause injury if used improperly. The SERPA Holster "problems" are on the same level as the Glock "KaBoom!" problems.... you can google either and find stories (some first-hand, some not) that will make you think that either piece of equipment would cause at least one death if ever allowed to go through a 2 day pistol course. Of course, that is not the case. I've had hundreds of them go through classes with no issues at all. We've had the occasional loose screw (literally) and one "blocked" button after half a day of rolling in dirt and pea gravel. The one safety issue we had with them (see below) was diagnosed as a severe case of operator error combined with poor supervision and design issues.
While you're googling, you can find my other (maybe even lengthier) explanations of why I not only let SERPAs into my classes ( ::)), but I actually like the holsters. They are intuitive and efficient. If used properly, they don't pose more risk than most other pieces of gear. Proper use includes pulling the gun STRAIGHT UP out of the holster and not canting the grip/slide forward during presentation (entirely inefficient, unless you are shooting to the rear, yet many people with sloppy presentations do it.....). The one design issue I have with the SERPA is the very "speed cut" (or whatever you want to call it) that allows the rear of the top of the slide to be pushed forward during presentation on some (most) SERPA equipped holsters from BHPG.
In the first generation, the SERPA did not play well with the extended take-down lever used with the LaserMax guide rod on Glocks. We had a student fight this problem inappropriately (yanking on the gun repeatedly through several presentation drills) and shoot himself through the holster and his leg at Valhalla a few years ago. I wasn't on the range, but I watched the video. The student (Assistant Instructor for another nationally known school, Very Experienced Shooter, etc, etc) was the cause of the injury, not the gear. I believe that the lack of involvement by the instructor running the range (who clearly saw that the shooter was having trouble) was due to the profile of the shooter and I know that it affected the instructor personally after the fact. He learned a hard lesson and, in my opinion, was at least as responsible as the piece of gear. When I brought the problem to the attention of both Lasermax and BHPG, both companies responded professionally and BHPG has since changed the design to allow these two modifications to work well together.
L
In the interest of full disclosure: No, I am not sponsored by BHPG. I do get T&E samples of their stuff, as I do from several companies. I do use their stuff on my training DVDs, as I do use items (including hoslters) from several companies. They also are clothing sponsors for The Best Defense TV Show and one of the co-hosts (Mike Janich) works for the company. He and several other employees at BHPG are friends of mine, as I have friends at other holster manufacturing companies as well.
Getting to the point of what Fatman said above... No holster is going to solve retention issues if you are not paying attention and if you can't fight in close quarters. The SERPA adds an extra level that does not require much (any, in truth) action that is incongruent with proper drawstroke... that is what makes it intuitive ("works well with what the body does naturally in the context of fight") and efficient. You can find demos of the holster being ripped off the belt loop, but you can find that for many lightweight modern holsters. Read my last blog ("Fighting Through It") here at DRTV for a little info about the problems with presenting from a typical "retention" holsters. Lastly on this topic, and again to Fatman's anecdote, I attended the G.R.A.C.I.E. LE Grappling Instructor's course with a guy from a PD in TN who had just bought the latest/greatest Level 3 retention holster (the kind I describe in class as requiring "Grip, unsnap, push, twist, stomp you foot three times and hope" to present from) and couldn't get his presentations down after a couple days. Within a few minutes I learned how to unholster his pistol from the front with my left hand much easier than either he or I could get it out properly while wearing it!
There are scores of thousands of SERPA holsters in circulation. In the mid 90's when scores of thousands of Glocks entered US Law Enforcement use, every negligent discharge was blamed on the Glock. In time, it became obvious that it wasn't the gun that was responsible. In many cases, it was poor gun-handling habits that people "got away with" during the double action revolver days (whether it was an urban legend or not, many of us could certainly imagine a cop hanging a Glock on the hook on the men's room door!). There have also been other, less elegant and effective, designs that involved the trigger finger to release the firearm, but none have been as successful as the SERPA.
How many guns "kaboomed!' before there were Glock .40's ? How many people put rounds out negligently during presentation before there were SERPAs?
-RJP
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The value of professional experience and knowledge cannot be overstated.
Training with real instructors has it's benefits. It's not a requirement in our world...but it is sage advice. I've experienced extensive survival and firefighting training for the decade or so I worked offshore, drills, classes, etc...training in anything pays. I wish I had as much training with weapons and have decided to correct my training deficiency over time.
The "monkey reflex" can be trained to behave....as one learns basics and has trained the "monkey" out, it's time for another more advanced level of training...such as drills where your primary arm (several levels above basic) is out-of-service and you need to manipulate, fire and reload with your weak arm only.
Thanks Rob!
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IMO, if your not willing to get some training from a professional and pratice, you should not carry a gun.
Like many things in life, its not the "hardware, its the software"
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IMO, if your not willing to get some training from a professional and pratice, you should not carry a gun.
Like many things in life, its not the "hardware, its the software"
TAB,
Are you saying "should not carry" as a personal choice or by law?
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TAB,
Are you saying "should not carry" as a personal choice or by law?
I would hope personal choice, but I don't have a prob with mandatory classes before you get/renew your ccw.
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I have no problem with laws like alcohol consumption tied to carry. However, I believe that every time you create a law that requires education, training and application to any level of firearm ownership, possession or usage you start to drive a wedge in Second Amendment Rights. It may seem like a small thing, but have you ever seen how small a wedge it takes to split a huge block of granite?
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TAB, Literacy tests for voting were deemed unconstitutional, and that is NOT a constitutionally guaranteed right, Therefore mandatory training is NOT acceptable.
Read the amendment carefully, it states reasons that are not acceptable for disqualification, race, gender etc. it does NOT say you have a right to vote. Else where in the Constitution it leaves the choice of who can vote to the states.
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You can have some one help you vote, you can't have some one help you carry.
is it really such a bad thing to be educated about the laws of your state and demostrate some practical skill?
Most of our rights we have to pay for... want to march on washington... fine, but you better get a permit and pay the fees.
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I still don't see a ringing endorsement FOR the Serpa. I see defense of it in this thread, but what problem is it designed to solve, outside of gun retention? ANY system that creates muscle-memory that has to be consciously countermanded is an inherently flawed system. The Serpa allegedly forces your trigger finger to press down in a position, that as you draw extends to an unfortunate conclusion: pressure on the trigger before a target is acquired. Your index finger is pressing the release, and unless you TRAIN yourself to relinquish that pressure, you're destined for a ND. I've said before that I don't have any personal experience with the system, but then again, I don't plan to. I'm inclined to err on the side of caution, and go with the anecdotal evidence and the outright ban of the holster on certain ranges. The argument about kabooms doesn't hold water - that's the difference between physical properties of firearms, loads, and shell casings, not training. I'm of the opinion that this holster system trains poor finger control habits. Good finger and muzzle discipline is hard enough to instill in students without a system that MAY encourage poor habits.
Negligent discharges are caused by only ONE thing: a finger pulling the trigger. Why exacerbate that?
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Jimbob_tx, you said:
I still don't see a ringing endorsement FOR the Serpa. I see defense of it in this thread, but what problem is it designed to solve, outside of gun retention?
Stop there.... gun retention is exactly what the SERPA addresses and is important.... Thinking that gun retention isn't important is living in movie world where gunfights are clean, planned things that happen in a vacuum.
The rest of your post is missing a huge point that is also important for you (and anyone) to understand: The SERPA does support trigger finger discipline and proper placement.
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Be careful about over thinking the problem or starting from an assumption that there is a problem that doesn't really exist... that is the reason I brought up Kabooms! in the first place...... ;) .
I don't want to pick on you, but:
I've said before that I don't have any personal experience with the system
.... that's kinda relevant here..... you are working on assumptions that are really flawed.
Anecdotal "evidence" and "erring on the side of caution" is what leads to no one being able to shoot from the holster on public ranges.... or shoot more than one shot per second.... or have CCW permits...... or own guns at all...... etc, etc.....
5 years ago, this was the discussion over whether or not it was "OKAY" to let people take defensive shooting courses with IWB holsters. Seriously, there were schools that didn't allow it because the instructors thought is wasn't safe.... or were afraid of the liability.... or couldn't figure out how to teach their use safely because it wasn't what THEY used. The same is true on some ranges where people aren't allowed to use shoulder holster, crossdraw, fanny packs or ANY other method of carry. If the instructor can't figure out how to help a student become better prepared to use their method of carry, they shouldn't indite the method out of hand. FWIW, if an instructor has the integrity to say " I don't like it, so you can't use it!" OR "I don't know how you can use it safely, so you can't use it" I have nothing but RESPECT. At that point it is up to the student to make a decision about the instructor's opinion.....
If I have student show up who is carrying a 1911 and insists that holster-less pocket carry, chamber loaded with the safety off is his preferred method..... well, in that case, I think I can make a 98+% safe statement that "no reasonable instructor" would allow it. Either way, I am okay with the student making a decision about my opinion and choosing where to spend his money and time. The SERPA issue is a far cry from that type of situation.
-RJP
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I am going to say this and I hope that it doesnt piss off the people who are big names and sponsored on here. I respect so many of the ones that I see on here I hope I dont turn into "that guy".
But alot of big name trainers, i.e. Larry Vickers, really push the products they are sponsored by. Now I am not the end all be all on saying the Serpa is perfectly safe, but I have used it alot on with my 1911 and have not had an issue.
I bet if you ask Todd Jarrett about the Serpa he would tell you all the great things about it and not any of the safety issues.
There are alot of products out there and I am sure everyone has their hang up somewhere. Just like the safariland hood latch on 6004 becomes inoperable when doing low crawls in mud.
So I think alot of this has to do with the person who owns the range and the people that have the power to change rules do to their personal afflictions about a product.
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I should also add to what I wrote about not having a problem with my Serpa. I use it with a 1911 and I was taught to snap off the safety while bringing the gun up, so when I draw I have something that prevents me from firing right when the gun comes out of the holster.
So maybe the problem is with firearms without a manual thumb safety. Or if you flick the safety off while the you are still drawing out of the holster in one motion.
Guys that train many people, at many different levels of ability, are the ones that make the call most of the time so who am I to say one product is ok. But I know what works for me.
Update: I just went back and read what Mr. Pincus wrote in his first post on page 2 and I feel like I may have said a couple of the same things he did so I am sorry to cross pollinate, I should have read before I opened my mouth. (I pretty much take what ever he says as gold.)
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Mr. Pincus,
Serpa holsters OK in this class?
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=595
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***this is a tangent***
Mojave,
That is a good question...... ;D.
I'll find out. But before I even ask, I will tell you that, since I teach on a lot of different people's ranges, my safety speech almost always includes the following (if the range owner, local instructor, host of course, whatever is present..):
"...... so those are my safety rules. [turning to host] Is there anything else I need to add to meet your requirements here at the range or anything you're concerned about?"
I do that out of respect for using someone else's place (and sometimes name/business to bring in students) and as a bit of CYA that everyone was on the same page when we started, in case something goes terribly wrong later!
I would obviously do so the same thing on this case. So.... while the SERPA is fine with me, I might get overruled by local range rules.
OTOH, we might over-ride local range rules, as we do when the local range has one of those 50 item long lists of "Range Rules" posted that includes things like "If the gun fails to fire, keep it pointed in a safe direction and notify a range officer." ::).
Stand by.
-RJP
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Update: I just went back and read what Mr. Pincus wrote in his first post on page 2 and I feel like I may have said a couple of the same things he did so I am sorry to cross pollinate, I should have read before I opened my mouth.
Ksail, you aren't the first, and you won't be the last - don't sweat it.
Update: (I pretty much take what ever he says as gold.)
In the interview portion of the podcast a few back, the one with Rob, Michael Janich, Tim Cremins (sp?) and MB talking about the upcoming TBD show, someone said they told their instructors that he didn't ever want to hear anyone say "Do this because so-and-so said to do it that way." OTOH, experience and training will out, and since I have so little of either, I too listen to MB and his guests and gain their perspective and the benefits of their experience and training.
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This is definitely one of the better discussions and threads. Advice, dissent, all coming together to ponder. Nothing wasted, knowledge gained.
Now to train.....but it's raining at the range today...if it keeps up I'll have to consider putting a little lead fertilizer in the wife's flowerbed.
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Anecdotal "evidence" and "erring on the side of caution" is what leads to no one being able to shoot from the holster on public ranges.... or shoot more than one shot per second.... or have CCW permits...... or own guns at all...... etc, etc.....
Most of your points are well taken, except for this notable extrapolation. Public ranges are public ranges, and anyone with a pulse can show up and shoot there. Those rules are in place for good reason. I've been muzzle-****ed enough times at public ranges to testify to why that's the case, and as to why I don't shoot in that environment anymore.
I think what's missing from this discourse is that I'm talking strictly in the context of teaching new shooters the basics of shooting, in a classroom/range environment. Hollywood notwithstanding, my context for teaching is primarily in the competition arena, not self-defense/military/police applications (in spite of the cross-over skills). I've seen my share of retention devices, yes, even in the competition context (shoot what you carry is the prevailing logic there). Obviously, for us gamer-types, any sort of retention device just slows us down. I use a Ghost holster for USPSA, if that's any indication. I use the Comp-Tac locking paddle holsters for IDPA and carry. I carry an IWB Glock 26 in a Comp-Tac rig, too. To each his/her own.
I still see only apologetics regarding why one system is better than another, and good marketing often trumps common sense. I personally think it's a bad idea to train ANY trigger-finger movement until the gun is unholstered and the target is sighted. Snapping that index finger into action as the first step of a draw from a holster is more likely to lead to an ND than simply to draw, find the sight picture, THEN move the finger to the trigger.
My mileage obviously varies.
Respectfully,
jr
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Thanks for the more in depth exploration of the topic, jr.... In the context that you are dealing with (non-defensive, administrative settings), I think we agree that the SERPA isn't the first choice by any stretch.
I do think that you would benefit from hands-on time with the SERPA, however, just to understand it better. You'll see that you really shouldn't be "pushing" the button at all (as you have to push the thumb button on the Ghost, for example (at least the only Ghost I've used), it simply moves under the natural pressure of extending your finger along the holster so that it is along the frame when you draw.
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Pathfinder,
Thanks for pointing that out... I was in a hurry during my last post about the Suarez Course, but I almost referenced the concept that you are talking about. It was me who was saying that on the podcast and I say it often in class. I don't want anyone reading this thread, for example, and showing up at some course with a SERPA and say "I use it because Rob Pincus said it was okay!".... the reasons for WHY I think the SERPA is okay may make sense to someone... in which case they should use those reasons to explain why they are choosing it. The idea was more thoroughly explored in this Blog Article: http://breachbangclear.blogspot.com/2008/09/guest-blog-respectful-irreverence.html. (http://breachbangclear.blogspot.com/2008/09/guest-blog-respectful-irreverence.html.).
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I got the answer from Mr. Suarez, the important part is quoted below, but the bottom line is that YES, you can use a SERPA in my CFS course that he is hosting.
(from an email earlier today):
[because so many people are using SERPA] ...I won't be so agressive about it, but I will require each Serpa user to
sign a special release, and videotaped, acknowledging the holster is
dangerous to themselves and acknowledging all liability...ALL liability
arising from them using it.
My note in response:
"Okay.... I'l let them know.
I don't agree with the statement "acknowledging the holster is dangerous to themselves" anymore than the gun that they will be carrying in it is also "dangerous to themselves"... but your range, your rules."
****
-RJP
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Is the button in the trigger guard or above it? In the pictures I see it looks like it's above the trigger guard. If it is above the trigger, and your trigger finger is above the trigger housing before you draw, and ends up on the side of the frame above the trigger after you draw, then how can it cause a ND? Your finger wouldn't be on the trigger at any time or even inside the trigger guard. I'm still trying to figure out if there's a problem or not.
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jf,
Scroll back and read my original response.... in it I describe how you could end up with your finger even with the trigger when you draw..... but, by design, your finger is "above" the trigger aligned with the frame.
-RJP
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I helped teach a class this weekend - intro to competition shooting, and sure enough, a student showed up with a Serpa holster. I didn't say a word about it, but watched for a while, and asked what he thought of it. My observation was that he used the flat of his index finger to activate the switch, and typically kept his finger along the frame. I asked him what he thought about it, and he professed that he didn't care for it much, but it was cheap and in stock. He had plans to replace it. When I asked what he didn't like about it, it was the fact that his index finger came into play before he could draw. He also gave himself a wedgie a couple of times when it didn't activate. :o
No shooters were harmed in the making of this testimonial. ;D
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I helped teach a class this weekend - intro to competition shooting, and sure enough, a student showed up with a Serpa holster. I didn't say a word about it, but watched for a while, and asked what he thought of it. My observation was that he used the flat of his index finger to activate the switch, and typically kept his finger along the frame. I asked him what he thought about it, and he professed that he didn't care for it much, but it was cheap and in stock. He had plans to replace it. When I asked what he didn't like about it, it was the fact that his index finger came into play before he could draw. He also gave himself a wedgie a couple of times when it didn't activate. :o
No shooters were harmed in the making of this testimonial. ;D
The index finger coming into play is why it ends up on the frame above the trigger and not on it.
I've had some issues with the gun not coming out because I didn't press the release correctly due to an improper grip, so that's a training issue not an engineering flaw. No wedgies yet though. ::)
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Well, a self-induced wedgie may get the BGs laughing so hard you need not worry about the draw.
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The index finger coming into play is why it ends up on the frame above the trigger and not on it.
I've had some issues with the gun not coming out because I didn't press the release correctly due to an improper grip, so that's a training issue not an engineering flaw. No wedgies yet though. ::)
You might want to scroll back a few posts. We've traveled this path already. I was merely reporting - you decide. My opinion remains - the index finger being activated should be the last thing you do in the draw, not the first thing.
jr
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Well, a self-induced wedgie may get the BGs laughing so hard you need not worry about the draw.
Conjuring images of Barney Fife. ;D
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Conjuring images of Barney Fife. ;D
Andy never gave Barney any bullets, ergo; no AD possible! :D
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Andy never gave Barney any bullets, ergo; no AD possible! :D
One bullet, I believe, but he kept it in his left breast pocket. Except for the escapee coming for Barney episode, where he had a fully loaded revolver.
Can't remember what I had for breakfast, but useless stuff from the last century... ;D
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This in from a state academy rule book on firearms training:
"SHOULDER HOLSTERS, CROSS DRAW HOLSTERS, AND HOLSTERS HAVING AN UNLOCKING DEVICE OPERATED BY THE TRIGGER FINGER, ARE PROHIBITED."
It is used to specifically exclude the Blackhawk Serpa holster from being used on their range. As with many rules, it is based on incidents that have taken place on the range during training. They observed that proper technique for this holster, finger pad used to operate the "finger activation platform," would degrade as the amount of shooter stress increased causing the finger tip to press on the platform and have a higher liklihood of causing the pistol to fire. After having this happen, this academy did a Risk Management review which resulted in the rule.
Another report had a shooter get entrance/exit wounds in both thigh and calf while drawing from this holster. The requirement after this incident was that the holster must be adjusted to a canted position, to allow rounds fired in the holster to miss the shooters body.
Blackhawk's television advertisement shows use of the finger pad, but their latest holster instructions do not mention specific technique. On the Blackhawk sales training video, Chuck Buis of Blackhawk demonstrates proper technique, but is not specific as to technique.
Most users of this holster won't be seeing that video, so it's up to firearms instructors to know about this and help where indicated.
Trainers working with governmental entities would do well to realize that training efforts may be monitored and affected by Risk Management offices. In the instance mentioned above, statewide levels of government worked with a state government Risk Management office in making the determination to forbid the use of the holster. The potential for an injury, once recognized, must be addressed. Training absent due diligence to reduce the problem can result in a lack of insurance coverage for affected parties. Most entities will look for the easiest way to reduce that risk.
The potential for the holster to pull the retention screws through and free of the belt slide or paddle, is another issue.
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Kilroy,
Most users of this holster won't be seeing that video, so it's up to firearms instructors to know about this and help where indicated.
That is the trick to me.
Did they site any incidents of problems with cross draw or shoulder holsters or were they banned because they are harder for the instructors to deal with safely?
The reason I ask is that I see the SERPA "safety problems" as an extension of that issue... instructors don't want to (or know how to) teach or monitor its proper use, so they ban it.
-RJP
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One bullet, I believe, but he kept it in his left breast pocket. Except for the escapee coming for Barney episode, where he had a fully loaded revolver.
Can't remember what I had for breakfast, but useless stuff from the last century... ;D
Is that the one when Barney and Andy are standing on the street, Barney holsters the gun, and it goes off?
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Is that the one when Barney and Andy are standing on the street, Barney holsters the gun, and it goes off?
I think it happened in several episodes.
I saw one a few weeks ago where two guys were selling produce illegally on the street and Barney was afraid to handle them. In one scene Andy and Barney were out on the dirt road and Barney took his bullet out and loaded it and fired it as he put it in the holster. Then Andy just took the gun away.
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I can see where drawing from a cross draw or shoulder holster could potentially cause an injury to the person next to you as you turn the pistol 180 degrees toward the target.
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Did they site any incidents of problems with cross draw or shoulder holsters or were they banned because they are harder for the instructors to deal with safely?
The reason I ask is that I see the SERPA "safety problems" as an extension of that issue... instructors don't want to (or know how to) teach or monitor its proper use, so they ban it.
My source cited an injury and a non-injury discharge related to the use of the Serpa. With those circumstances presently before the training staff, and following the required incident reporting of unintended gunshots, their Risk Management folks made the determination. Perhaps less of a concern with the private sector training vendors, it is of considerable importance to this governmental venue. A Federal agency has also prohibited the holster from use for similar reasons.
In this instance it is not the case that they can't teach it or don't know about it, but with other, more problem free alternatives available, why risk someone else's (the user) safety when established circumstances can reduce that risk.
I have personally seen one retention mechanism break on the Serpa and witnessed another have a screw lose it's retention of holster to belt slide. My correspondents have provided other circumstances of the retention screws pulling through and loose of either the paddle or belt slide. My trainees are not prohibited from using the holster, but policy has established that they are responsible (and documented in agreement) for any quirks or problems that cause a safety violation or keep them from passing a qualification course. It is the only holster that is addressed by name for this problem.
I'd grant that some of the problems are user induced, but would also say that even "monitoring" students is not going to prevent a problem exacerbated by stress and circumstance.
The manufacturer remains pretty silent about their product, and in several iterations of their product and it's instructions, have yet to mention a word on proper use and technique. I'd suspect they understand that technique is important, given the video footage they've produced, but they are publicly mum.
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Good discussion here! I have a Serpa for my fullsize Glocks. When I draw, my finger indexes on the slide just like with my other holsters, leather and kydex. Mine work well in 3 gun. No matter what I do the pistol stays in the holster until needed. Based on my experience with the Serpa, and the lack of real evidence that the holster is unsafe, I'll keep on using mine.
s45
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I have a SERPA as my plainclothes duty holster. I think the retention is better than previous leather holsters my unit used. I have seen no problems at the range or on the street with this holster.