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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: 2HOW on December 31, 2008, 09:18:19 AM

Title: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: 2HOW on December 31, 2008, 09:18:19 AM
Comments on Using Handloads for Self-Defense
Many shooters who reload ask about the best recipes for self-defense loads for use in their carry guns. Certain defensive-shooting writers, most notably Massad Ayoob, advise against using any handloaded ammunition for this purpose. They paint a picture of a prosecutor demonizing the shooter for wanting to craft special ammo even deadlier and with more maiming ability than what the factories produce. The single exception Ayoob listed (and here he was tepid in his endorsement) was for someone who needed a defensive load in a powerful, deep-penetrating caliber like the .44 Magnum. To avoid overpenetration and injuring others with a shoot-through, a less-powerful loading than factory fodder might be appropriate.

The instance of a prosecutor going after a citizen for using handloads in a defensive shooting has not actually happened anywhere that anyone can document. The Internet discussion boards call it an “urban legend from Massad Ayoob,” which is maybe not fair to Ayoob. I don’t think Massad ever claimed a specific case where it had happened, only that it could.

There is one area where handloads have caused problems for investigators, and ironically it is mild loads like the kind mentioned above that are most likely to get the shooter in trouble. This is in those cases where there's a serious dispute about how far away the shooter was from the shootee when he pulled the trigger. Forensic experts can pin this distance down very accurately if they have the gun used and identical factory ammo. Handloads, though, can vary widely depending on powder type and pressure level. Obviously, if forensics have samples of identical ammo, like the unfired rounds still in your gun, there should be no problem, although three or four samples may not be enough to perform the needed tests. But what if you've emptied your gun? How do you prove the stuff on your loading bench is the same as the rounds you touched off? The truth is, you can’t.

Theoretical problem area: You whip up a batch of low-recoil, mild .44 loads with low blast signature, for lower recoil and to prevent overpenetration. You encounter a group of would-be attackers, strung out on whatever is that day's drug of choice, who are out "wilding" (which is what happened to the Central Park Jogger.) They ignore your demands to stop and drop their contact weapons (pipes etc.). They keep coming and you finally pop the closest ones at 7-10 feet, firing all 6 rounds at these two who keep pressing the attack as the third and fourth flee. Thug 1 is dead, Thug 2 crippled but alive, Thugs 3 and 4 free for now until Thug 2 tells the police who they are.

Because of your light load, the residue on the clothing of the dead and wounded is almost undetectable, similar to what a factory magnum load would generate at, say, 20 feet.

Will Al Sharpton get involved? Will Thugs 2, 3,and 4 claim they were over 20 feet away and on their way to church service when you opened fire on them? Will they all agree you screamed a racial epithet at them and when they turned to see who the Klansman was, you just started blasting? Will police say that if you thought they were a threat you should have retreated? Will they say you fired too soon? The likeliest testimony from forensics will be "Based on the forensic evidence, we can't say with any confidence how far Mr. Citizen was from Mr. Thug when he shot him. It may have been a few feet, but it may have been over 20. We don't know."

A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force by creating extra-powerful handloads is an imaginative "what if" that has never actually happened in a courtroom. A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force because he shot someone who was far enough away that he was not an immediate threat is a very real argument that has been presented to juries on many occasions.

Having said that, realize that I carry a .44 S&W where legal and have for 28 years. I have NEVER carried factory ammo. My load of choice for the 29 is a full power load using a 275 grain Jim Harvey (Lakeville Arms) 3/4 jacket semiwadcutter hollow point that expands violently. I am revising my thinking for the much lighter 329 (which I love.) I'm leaning towards a full wadcutter out of soft lead at 1000-ish. Time for more tests with ordnance gelatin.

John Ross


(this came from concealed carry)
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: CurrieS103 on December 31, 2008, 09:28:31 AM
I carry factory loads only.  In a post-self defense legal situation, I don't want to hand anything to a prosecutor that even hints at impropriety.
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: alfsauve on December 31, 2008, 09:31:18 AM
If a prosecutor or a civil attorney decides to go after you, I don't think it matters.  They'll make hay out of the gun you selected, the caliber and the ammo, regardless of whether it was factory or hand loaded.

"So, you disregarded any concern for safety of innocent persons and purchased the cheapest ammo you could find?"
or
"So, you purposely selected ammo that could inflict the most significant damage to my innocent clients?"
or
"So, you concocted your own ammo to inflict the most henious of injuries to my innocent clients?"

Yes, there are good come-backs, but the key is to not end up in court in the first place.

To that end, Don't Talk To the Police!    Don't tell ANYBODY anything, except for confiding in your lawyer.   Don't give anybody "ammunition" that could be twisted against you later.
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: Dharmaeye on December 31, 2008, 09:36:39 AM
Quote from: alfsauve on December 31, 2008, 09:31:18 AM
If a prosecutor or a civil attorney decides to go after you, I don't think it matters.  They'll make hay out of the gun you selected, the caliber and the ammo, regardless of whether it was factory or hand loaded.

"So, you disregarded any concern for safety of innocent persons and purchased the cheapest ammo you could find?"
or
"So, you purposely selected ammo that could inflict the most significant damage to my innocent clients?"
or
"So, you concocted your own ammo to inflict the most henious of injuries to my innocent clients?"

Yes, there are good come-backs, but the key is to not end up in court in the first place.

To that end, Don't Talk To the Police!    Don't tell ANYBODY anything, except for confiding in your lawyer.   Don't give anybody "ammunition" that could be twisted against you later.

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: Hazcat on December 31, 2008, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: Dharmaeye on December 31, 2008, 09:36:39 AM
http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

Ya beat me to it!  ;)
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: 2HOW on December 31, 2008, 11:15:07 AM
I cant get the video to run
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: pioneer on December 31, 2008, 11:21:41 AM
Not a good idea to carry re-loads for self defense, but rather than take my word for it, or some third-hand account of something that Massad Ayoob might have said, listen to what Mas has to say about it in his own words. 

On the web page for Tom Gresham's Gun Talk radio show, he has an archives section with lots and lots of good information.
 Go to; http://guntalk.libsyn.com/index.php?post_year=2008&post_month=10

Scroll down to 26 October, 2008
Guest Massad Ayoob - Author - "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry"
Click on direct download, or podcast. 
24 minutes into the interview a caller asks about hand loads for SD.
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: 1776 Rebel on December 31, 2008, 12:04:43 PM
If your in a gun fight and kill someone, figure that your attorney is going to cost  around 50 to 100 thousand dollars. That is just to defend you. Doesn't guarntee acquittal. So start saving for that :)
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: Grizzle_Bear on December 31, 2008, 02:12:10 PM
The only handloaded ammo for self defense I would like to try came from John Ross.

A piece of .429 diameter nylon rod loaded over a case full of Unique in a .44 Mag.

Grizzle Bear

Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: Hazcat on December 31, 2008, 02:27:30 PM
Quote from: 2HOW on December 31, 2008, 11:15:07 AM
I cant get the video to run

try this

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

click the play arrow after the page loads.
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: SigShooter on December 31, 2008, 04:30:09 PM
I don't want to use reloads for SD myself, but if you're justified in taking the shot, it shouldn't matter what ammo you're using, whether it's handloaded or not.

Although I don't reload at this time, I've often thought it would make sense to make up some ammo with similar characteristics of my SD ammo. That way, I could train with ammo like my carry ammo without the extreme cost.

I know of only two manufacturers that have decided to produce a practice ammo with similar firing characteristics to their SD ammo. Speer Gold for SD and Speer Lawman for training, and winchester produces SXZ training and a similarly titled personal defense variation that eludes me at this time, but you can find it at Bass Pro Shop. (I can't find it on Winchester's website, maybe they stopped production.)

While I wouldn't use handloads for SD, I wouln't object to using them as practice loads to save some cost.
Title: Re: Hand loads for CCW
Post by: Big Frank on January 01, 2009, 02:48:34 AM
I'll never use handloads, mine or anyone elses, for SD. I still have some Black Talons left from the 90s that I won't use for SD either. Can you imagine what kind of person they would you out to be if you used "cop-killer" bullets that the manufacturer took off the market?