The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: Marshal Halloway on January 01, 2009, 06:08:41 PM
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Episode #2: Safe At Home Cont'd- part 2
Having shown the basics for preparing yourself against home invasion last week, Michael Bane, Mike Janich and Rob Pincus take home defense to the next level. What should you consider when firing a gun in your home at an intruder? If you fire a gun inside your home, how far will certain bullets penetrate into other rooms? What other weapons can you look into to defend yourself inside your house? These questions, along with many others, are answered by our experts..
Airtimes: Wednesday, January 7, 2008, 4:00PM, 7:30PM and 11:00PM
Rerun: Wednesday, April 8, 2009
All times Eastern
LEARN MORE... (http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/episode2.htm)
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Marshal, you're such a tease. ;D
Another hobby to add to my list is "Waitin' on Wednesday".
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Really looking forward to the discussions after this episode as well... Every time we put the penetration demo out on DVD or a TV Segment, it gets a lot of attention. People aren't always comfortable with the results... but the physics are amazingly consistent! ::)
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Really looking forward to the discussions after this episode as well... Every time we put the penetration demo out on DVD or a TV Segment, it gets a lot of attention. People aren't always comfortable with the results... but the physics are amazingly consistent! ::)
Rob,
Are you talking specific examples of bullet penetration of objects?
If so you just bumped up my anticipation level again. A few months ago, while I was assisting with a firearms safety training course, we did a penetration demonstration. We ranged from .22 to .50 BMG (a range member has a bolt action Barrett...wow what a rifle) to demonstrate just what a bullet can do to things. We were trying to drive home the point of muzzle directional awareness.
Thanks.
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Specifically, we are going to demonstrate some typically chosen home defense loads and what could happen in terms of penetrating drywall wall sections if you were to miss your intended target inside of a typical western construction home.
-RJP
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My guess is you'll show hollowpoints, once plugged with drywall, act as ball ammo and will easily go through interior walls, out the siding of your house, into the siding of your neighbor's house and possibly through several layers of their drywall as well. This assumes no 2x4s intervene of course.
I have heard 55gr .223 is better in this regard in that it doesn't overpenetrate as much as handgun ammo despite (or because of) its higher energy.
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FYI
Unfortunately, we had some audio problems with our 4:00PM eastern broadcast. This is corrected, so the 7:30PM and 11:00PM airing will be fine.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
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M thanks for the heads up. I thought my recorder got fried or something. I'll put it into record mode for the next session! :)
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I saw this episode tonight ans wish I had seen last week's. I will set my vcr to tape the shows and show them to friends and loved ones that I feel need this kind of education.
I strongly encourage everyone to tell others about this show. You cannot get too much education. As a police officer and firearms instructor I liked what I saw tonight. Please keep up the great work!
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Our goal is to get that information out to as many people as possible, because we all truly believe it is a matter of life or death!!!
Michael B
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I missed E1 - ugh - catch it on the rebound.
GREAT WORK guys (and gals) top notch. Really.
I watched the new NRA defense program and got the impression it was a 1/2 hour infomercial for "X" product.
I watched TBD and tried to keep an open mind, but all sai and done, well done, I liked it very much.
Learned some on Rob's segment, Rob your 9mm GLOCK?
- Question for Michael Janich (or TBD cadre) which comes from my wife (we both watch)
In the segment towards the end, female was on the top of the stairway, Mike J was commenting that she did all things right.
My wife wants to know why would you inform someone that "I have a gun" in your own home?
Is it just a CYA exercise - or to help them make informed decisions? Possibly persuading them to leave before lethal force?
Just wondering for her information.
Good job folks A+
(p.s beautiful house.)
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Thanks for watching.... that was actually a borrowed 9mm from either Mr. Bane or one of the USSA guys... I fly in and out the next day for that taping session and didn't bring any gear with me!
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NP. And (not trying to sound like a suck up) but it is US that are thanking you all for taking your time to keep us informed.
So back at ya Rob.
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I thought Michael Janich did a great job of covering the questions that I had from the first episode like moving from behind a bed (not the greatest protection from on coming shots) and getting away from the window. That was my qualm with the first episode and I was very happy to see how episode 2 covered those two areas.
Also, the inability to get to a safe room was good IF you have a firearm on you or in the same room as your in. I think I would have like to see Michael touch on the option fleeing the home or even barricading.
I always liked the drywall penetration demonstration that Rob did in the PDR Combat Focus Shooting and Home Defense Tips DVD. I felt like that demonstration in this episode fit well with what Michael talked about knowing what beyond your threat.
The second episode was great!
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Great episode.
Made the first episode make more sense and answered a lot of questions that some of us jumped the gun on. (is this a pun?)
Looking forward to the rest in the series.
Good job guys.
:)
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Great episode.
Made the first episode make more sense and answered a lot of questions that some of us jumped the gun on. (is this a pun?)
Looking forward to the rest in the series.
Good job guys.
:)
Right on the money!! Lots of info that is very well done.
Great job.
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Great episode. My wife doesn't particularly like suspense so she had me summarize it for her after I watched it.
My DVR tapes the first available airing, which was 4pm so I too got the sound delay problem. And the vertical hold problem on the 4:30SG. Still very understandable.
PLUS: One thing I emphasized with my wife and the final scenario showed was that things happen fast and that BGs aren't always deterred by the mere presence of a weapon. You have to make the decision before hand where you draw the "line". The no-shoot/shoot line that is.
And that is the real key. Planning and practice. Decide in advance what you will and won't do.
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Dear RTFM:
With regard to informing someone that you have a gun, the idea is to train yourself to do the right thing to justify your actions legally. With that said, please understand that I am not an attorney (I have to much self-respect for that), so I am speaking logically, not dispensing hard-and-fast legal advice.
Here's my logic:
According to our legal system, I'm supposed to be judged by a jury of my peers. So, if I was on trial for shooting a home invader, I would expect MY peers to show up wearing NRA hats and reading SWAT magazine, right? Well, that's not gonna happen. Instead, I'll have a bunch of nice little old ladies who hate violence, love cats, and can't understand why I didn't just put the perp in a wristlock until he found religion. As such, my job is to get them to understand that I was in fear for my life or was defending my family against the threat of death or greivous bodily injury and that my actions were reasonable and justified.
If you have called 911 or if there is anyone who could serve as a witness for your actions, I believe that clearly stating
"You are in my house. Get out"
"I have called the police."
"I have a gun."
are all good ideas. That way, the home invader knows that he hasn't somehow kicked in his OWN front door to threaten his OWN family, the police are aware of the situation and are en route, and you are prepared to defend yourself. If, after all that, he still chooses to press an attack, his intent--and your ability to justify and articulate that you were in fear for your life--are pretty clear.
Some folks may feel that this is unnecessary and that once he's in your house, it's "game on." If you live in a state with a castle doctrine, that attitude is more appropriate. However, if you live in Massachusetts or California, memorizing those phrases might not be such a bad idea. Please remember that to ensure that TBD has a broad relevance to our viewers, we really try to cover all the bases thoroughly in the time we have available (which, by the way, is actually 19 minutes per episode). If something we say or show doesn't apply to your exact circumstances, that's OK. If showing that item motivated you to consider your specific situation and either forumulate or revise your plan, it's still a success. And as a student of personal defense, that's how you should look at ALL training.
In my defensive tactics curriculum I have a saying that I usually use to describe the difference between traditional martial arts and practical fighting skills: "You don't have to fight like me; you just have to fight well." The same concept applies to what we show on TBD. Take what we present as a starting point and adapt it to your skills, your physical attributes, and your situation. As long as you have a proper, effective, and consistent solution for the problem that you can apply under stress, you're good. That's the best way to maximize the odds of saving your butt.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Thank you for the well written reply, that is what I explained to Mrs. RTFM also - so it's good to know that I was (am) on the right track as to the "why did he do that."
Thank you.
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I had a situation back when I lived in Florida in the early 1980s...one New Year's Eve a very drunk man with a very bad case of wrong address tried to kick down my front door. I transitioned from my handgun to a Remington 1100 shotgun alternately loaded with #3 buckshot and slugs, called 911 and filled them in, left the phone off the hook, then very loudly informed the miscreant — loudly so that it would register on the 911 operator's tape — that I had a gun and that if he succeeded in kicking open my door, I would stop him from entering. Suffice to say in the end he decided he had the wrong address...the point being that I was less concerned about informing the miscreant than making sure the authorities had a record of what was going on.
The question on verbal "bracing" of a miscreant actually in the house is a tough question, both personal and dependent on the laws of the state you reside in — you have spent an hour with an attorney in your area specializing in personal defense, haven't you? This is a must for the armed civilian, because you need to know not only the letter of the laws, but how the court has interpreted those laws as well.
I live in a state with an old and well-precedented "castle doctrine." Because of my own situation — I am by definition a public person who talks a lot about guns — I cannot take the risk of giving anyone who would break into my home even the slightest advantage, and the state law and precedent supports me in that decision.
This discussion shows how complex decisions involving personal defense actually are and why we can only give you guidelines rather than fixed-point solutions. The important thing is for you to begin thinking about what amounts to the unthinkable and to take the steps to know — not guess, but know — the laws of your state and community as your craft your own best defense...
Michael B
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Minor continuity nit, although it was hard to tell since audio wasn't sync'd: when showing a closeup of the buckshot pattern on the first drywall, it looked like the birdshot round instead.
It's unfortunate we live in a lawsuit-happy nation, but it's something we have to deal with. Since TBD is intended as a springboard for making personal choices, it may be worthwhile to put disclaimers around stuff you do/suggest to tell views they need to research their state laws.
Example 1: in some states shooting a knife wielder at the bottom of the stairs when you're at the top might land you in jail. I know the 21' "rule" but I don't think that applies vertically as well as horizontally.
Example 2: some states limit the size of OC cans civilians can own.
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Really looking forward to the discussions after this episode as well... Every time we put the penetration demo out on DVD or a TV Segment, it gets a lot of attention. People aren't always comfortable with the results... but the physics are amazingly consistent! ::)
Hello,
I hope you are not basing your total penetration results on that one shot with a 9mm and that one shot with a 45cal. The 45 bounced off the second table bringing Einstein's theories into play. Was the 9mm a hollow point? Are you suggesting that we trade in our 9mm's for 45's? Or that everyone would be better off using a 45 cal "in case they missed?" Missing may happen and it is part of the self defense equation, but it is not the salient factor in choosing one's carry calibur.
Great show by the way and LONG overdue! Thanks for putting it together and making it happen.
Respecectfully,
Michael
Michigan
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Thanks for watching and for the feedback, Michael.
Those types of tests have been run many many times by many people/agencies/organizations. The results are very consistent. There are already a couple of threads discussing the details here in the TBD forum and the Defense & Tactics forum.
The demo's are not meant to Suggest anything. They are meant to show that pistol rounds generally penetrate with more energy, and therefore go through more wall sections, than the .223 55gr carbine rounds. We also show that, unless you are going to step down to birdshot, the shotgun doesn't really reduce the threat level significantly to the people in the first room or two beyond where you are shooting.
For some people, penetration concerns ARE a significant factor in their firearm/round choice, for others it is barely considered. It is one of those choices that people have to make for themselves, but we want it to be an educated decision not a guess or one based on gun-shop-wisdom.
-RJP
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Somewhere in the old threads was video of a test the Army did using a mock up of a small building, with dummies scattered through it, some with body armor some with out. They used panels of different types of outer construction, Brick, block, etc. I have not found it yet, when I do I will post a link .
If anyone else remembers this video and knows where it is PLEASE post the link.
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Very good points, Rob. I trust your knowledge WAY more than "gun-shop" wisdom. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Michael
Looking forward each week to Wednesday night!
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Hey guys, I know this is a bit late, but why no insulation in the mock up walls? If you're intent is to show the public the realities of what one's projectile does when missing a target(s) in a residential environment, shouldn't it be as real as possible?
Thanks,
SG
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Most interior walls contain no insulation.
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Hey guys, I know this is a bit late, but why no insulation in the mock up walls? If you're intent is to show the public the realities of what one's projectile does when missing a target(s) in a residential environment, shouldn't it be as real as possible?
Thanks,
SG
Welcome surfinguru. Head on down to the Down Range Cafe and look for the New Members thread. You can give us a proper introduction there and get a proper welcome in return.
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Surf,
Thanks for the interest in helping us get things right! The penetration topic was really hashed out pretty thoroughly in a couple fo threads here. Use the search function and you should find a lot of good info.
-RJP