The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Robin on January 02, 2009, 01:27:27 PM
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Law enforcement has long recognized the advantage of having secure holsters that require multiple steps to draw. Each step is considered a "level", and Level II or Level III holsters are considered standard for most agencies. Designed correctly they do not significantly slow draw times.
I think secure holsters are a growing trend that more civilians should adopt for two reasons:
1. The primary reason is the peace of mind knowing that once the weapon is secure it isn't going to come out without deliberate effort. Incidents like falling out of ankle holsters while running/dancing or the butt of a pistol in a belt holster getting stuck in a seat back and slipping out have happened. A Level II holster prevents things like that happening. It also helps to eliminate any subconscious touching of a concealed weapon to make sure it's still secure.
2. The second reason is the one they were designed for--to make gun grabs difficult. While the point of concealed carry is for it to be concealed, there are times when someone finds out you're carrying. A release mechanism the gun grabber doesn't know about or has difficulty manipulating buys you extra time.
I know of three different manufacturers that offer Level II concealed belt holsters.
Blackhawk's SERPA holsters use a release mechanism activated by your index finger as you naturally place it against the side of the holster. Todd Jarrett says his draw times improved using this holster since it reinforces acquiring a proper grip.
Safariland makes several types of Level II concealment holsters. I like their thumb-activated ALS belt holster. The thumb activation is very natural and not obvious to anyone who looks at the holster.
Bianchi's CarryLok series of holsters have a lever actuated by your middle finger. It isn't as natural to use as the other two.
All three designs offer Level II security that automatically engages when you holster the weapon. Unlike thumb snaps or other retention devices you don't have to fiddle with controls to make the weapon secure. Secure, easy to use and quick. What's not to like?
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I also say use a retention holster.
I was talking to one holster maker about doing a holster for me and he started laffing at me when I said I wanted him to make it for me with a thumb break on it. He told me that that was an insult to him and would not make it for me, of course I didn't use him.
I allways look at it this way also as to why you need a retention holster: you go to a public restroom and sit down on the thrown, now take a look at where your gun is and how easy it is to be grabed away from you, that is how many pick-pockets grab wallets and stuff from you also.
Ya it sounds funny and you say "that will never happen to me" but it is at a time when you are most vorable and not in an easy spot to help yourself.
I also have trouble keeping a gun in place when I am carrying IWB. I'm 6'3", 310 Lb's and have had 3 back surjurys. Trust me I am allways readjusting my pants so it is much easyer for the gun to "come out of the holster" without some kind of a retention holster.
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I know of three different manufacturers that offer Level II concealed belt holsters.
Don't forget about the thumb-break on the good old leather holster.
I carry most times in a Galco FLETCH holster http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPT3.asp?ProductID=565&CatalogID=4 (http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPT3.asp?ProductID=565&CatalogID=4) , it's a great holster. I have also found another one that I like alot also, it is a DeSantis C&L http://www.desantisholster.com/storefrontB2CWEB/browse.do?action=refresh_browse&ctg_id=1006 (http://www.desantisholster.com/storefrontB2CWEB/browse.do?action=refresh_browse&ctg_id=1006) .
Another one that I have found (and have ordered) is a Mernickle IWB holster http://www.mernickleholsters.com/ps/ps2_ref6.html (http://www.mernickleholsters.com/ps/ps2_ref6.html) , I don't have this one yet but talking with them and by the looks of it I'm going to like it. My current IWB (from someone else) sucks, it holds the gun fine but it only has one belt loop with one snap on it so it is allways coming out of my waist band or the loop is unsnaping. Another thing that happens is the whole holster comes out with the gun when you try to draw the gun out (not a good thing to happen) .
Hope that helps
David
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Don't forget about the thumb-break on the good old leather holster.
There are two potential disadvantages "traditional" thumb breaks:
1. It's well known and easy to defeat by someone standing in front of you.
2. It requires some manipulation when holstering and fastening the snap. The three devices I mentioned above automatically engage when holstering. I think this auto-engagement is a huge plus.
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There are two potential disadvantages "traditional" thumb breaks:
1. It's well known and easy to defeat by someone standing in front of you.
2. It requires some manipulation when holstering and fastening the snap. The three devices I mentioned above automatically engage when holstering. I think this auto-engagement is a huge plus.
Yes, and all three above will not work for IWB carry.
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Yes, and all three above will not work for IWB carry.
Unfortunately at this time, no. My preferred carry method is with a SERPA paddle holster but I also use pocket holsters where active retention isn't necessary and IWB where it isn't possible.
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Here in FL all I wear are shorts and T shirts so paddle holsters are out. I use and Uncle Mike IWB for my Kel Tek P3AT.
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There are two potential disadvantages "traditional" thumb breaks:
1. It's well known and easy to defeat by someone standing in front of you.
2. It requires some manipulation when holstering and fastening the snap. The three devices I mentioned above automatically engage when holstering. I think this auto-engagement is a huge plus.
I do use an IWB with a thumb break and it works fine. You have to remember the biggest thing is to be conceled. The BlackHawk (and others like that, of which I own and do use) are a great holster but they stick out alot so it makes them harder to concel. Again the bigggest thing here is that you are carrying conceled. Most likely regular Joe Smo isn't going to get into a very close fight were you have to worry about a bad guy getting your gun. If a perp is in that close allready you as a CCW person are in alot more trouble allready. The holster as I said I carry with the most is a Galgo FLETCH or the DeSantis C&L belt highride holster. With my bear paws it is hard for me to shoot a gun like a S&W J-Frame so I carry a larger gun (an M&P is my current gun).
You seem to now what you are saying, I'm wondering if you are a LEO and as such are looking at this differenetly. Say you are a LEO than yes you can carry more openly than an average CCW person can. An average CCW person most likely will only draw his or her gun when they are putting in in for the day or taking it out at night. Big difference than what a LEO will do. I was a LEO in small towns years ago (when I had a good back) and yes I had to draw my gun a few times but luckaly never had to fire it and now as just a CCW wearer I've never had to draw it. So yes I look at it in a way that is 1. most conceled, 2. somewhat easy for me to draw if I need to but hard if someone else trys to get my gun from me and 3. stays on me the best it can without giving away to someone that I am carrying.
Hope that helps as to why I said a leather holster over say the BlackHawk.
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I live in a state where CCWs are relatively rare and hard to obtain. Consequently most people don't wonder if others might be carrying and it isn't something they look for. For all I know I'm printing badly. But I do wear black jackets and other clothes that make bulges less noticable. And so many people strap tech gadgets on their belt it makes blending in easier too.
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I prefer a holster with some kind of retention. A thumb break is better than nothing at all, and the serpa is better. I also strongly like the use of a second gun, preferably pocket carry .
Always go concealed, properly dressed and do not brag about your carrying, and use common sense.
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I prefer a holster with some kind of retention. A thumb break is better than nothing at all, and the serpa is better. I also strongly like the use of a second gun, preferably pocket carry .
Always go concealed, properly dressed and do not brag about your carrying, and use common sense.
If I used a retention holster it would be nothing BUT a thumb break, either snap or the Velcro, anything else in my opinion is to much to think about when you primary thought is "Oh sh!t, I may die".
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I did the concealed carry for 6 (late 1970's to 1980's) years but we did not have the holster options available now. I used, and still have and use, a Bianchi pancake with thumb snap similar to Galco Fletch. I was carrying a S&W 19 with 2 1/2" barrel. I carried nationawide and never got called on it. Tried IWB, never liked it, retention was a problem when in a restroom but never with the Bianchi. Haven't used the new holsters, so cannot comment.
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I do not mean to hijack this thread but I wanted to share some interesting information.
I learned recently that the BlackHawk Serpa holster is being banned from some ranges. Apparently the reason behind this is that the placement of the button has caused some shooters to accidentally fire their handgun prematurely--usually during the draw stroke. The button, as I understand it, is right in line with the trigger /trigger guard. When drawing their weapon, some shooters have had their finger slip into the trigger housing causing the gun to go off. This occured in part due to the tension the shooter placed on the holster release button.
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I understand retention for LEOs or others who open carry. LEOs, in particular, are far more likely to enter dangersous situations and encounter resistance from people seeking to escalate. Its easy to see that someone seeking to commit a crime might go out of their way to disarm a uniformed policeman with a gun on his hip. Thumbstraps, Serpa, or other measures make perfect sense here.
On the other hand, the typical CCW holder will have his gun concealed, move AWAY from trouble, and isn't nearly so likely to be the target of someone seeking a gun. If a CCW holder does everything right, no one will ever know he has a gun until it is drawn and aimed - well past the point where a thumb snap would have made a difference.
My primary concerns with my concealed weapon are:
1) Is it safe? Will its holster prevent it from going bang until I want it to?
2) Can I present it fast enough to do me any good?
3) Is it well concealed?
For my money, a retention strap or mechanism won't help with 1 or 3, and will interfere with 2.
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If I used a retention holster it would be nothing BUT a thumb break, either snap or the Velcro, anything else in my opinion is to much to think about when you primary thought is "Oh sh!t, I may die".
Have you tried any of the active retention holsters I mentioned? And by "try", I mean practice with for at least ten minutes. If not, then I don't think you're in a good position to dismiss them out of hand.
Frequent practice is required in order to "not think much about" drawing under pressure. That's true regardless of what kind of holster and security level you use. The holsters I mention require some practice but do not significantly slow draws.
I learned recently that the BlackHawk Serpa holster is being banned from some ranges. Apparently the reason behind this is that the placement of the button has caused some shooters to accidentally fire their handgun prematurely--usually during the draw stroke. The button, as I understand it, is right in line with the trigger /trigger guard.
Not true and easily verified with any SERPA holster. The index finger release is in line with the frame, not the trigger guard.
Its easy to see that someone seeking to commit a crime might go out of their way to disarm a uniformed policeman with a gun on his hip. Thumbstraps, Serpa, or other measures make perfect sense here.
On the other hand, the typical CCW holder will have his gun concealed, move AWAY from trouble, and isn't nearly so likely to be the target of someone seeking a gun.
As I mentioned in my original post, the primary benefit for CCW is to keep the pistol secure from accidental drops. There's a huge peace of mind knowing nothing can make the handgun come out of the holster except conscious effort. Take-away protection is a distant second.
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Have you tried any of the active retention holsters I mentioned? And by "try", I mean practice with for at least ten minutes. If not, then I don't think you're in a good position to dismiss them out of hand.
Frequent practice is required in order to "not think much about" drawing under pressure. That's true regardless of what kind of holster and security level you use. The holsters I mention require some practice but do not significantly slow draws.
Not true and easily verified with any SERPA holster. The index finger release is in line with the frame, not the trigger guard.
As I mentioned in my original post, the primary benefit for CCW is to keep the pistol secure from accidental drops. There's a huge peace of mind knowing nothing can make the handgun come out of the holster except conscious effort. Take-away protection is a distant second.
Yes I used one for six months with a Auto Ordnance compact 1911 and found it to be an uncomfortable, inconvenient POS.
I might add that I have been carrying since the late 70's, so I have a bit of experience with the situation.
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Not true and easily verified with any SERPA holster. The index finger release is in line with the frame, not the trigger guard.
Okay. I admit I have not handled a SERPA so I was referrencing what I had been reading. I also ran across another thread here specifically addressing the SERPA issue after I made my original post. I do know that Gabe Suarez does not allow them in his classes due to the holsters design. I know I am new here, so please take this as it was intended, as discussion. It is not my intent to start any arguments.
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I never had any problems or felt that the retention feature on my Bianchi slowed down my draw on a concealed carry. I also used a Bianchi IWB that clipped to the belt or trousers. The pancake was faster since accessibility was better. With any type of holster the key will be to practice, practice and practice some more.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKtgkZKmQ Here the problem with a paddle.
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Yes I used one for six months with a Auto Ordnance compact 1911 and found it to be an uncomfortable, inconvenient POS.
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you, but then again there is no "one perfect holster" as our pile of discarded holsters can attest. :) Have you tried the Safariland? Next to the SERPA's trigger finger release I think the Safariland thumb lever is the most natural draw.
I know I am new here, so please take this as it was intended, as discussion. It is not my intent to start any arguments.
Neither is it mine, so please don't take any offense if it seemed I was harsh. You brought up what you believed was a valid point and I replied with what I believed was a valid rebuttal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKtgkZKmQ Here the problem with a paddle.
Well to clarify, there is a problem with a Fobus injection molded paddle. The video clip was incorrect when stating the problem was endemic to all kydex paddle holsters. Some other people have noted paddle holster retention devices like those on a Kramer can fail and you end up drawing the gun still in the holster. (Note: I have and like Kramer paddle holsters but realize their limitations.) That's why for paddle holster I like Blackhawk's design. It uses three hooks that are designed to snag both belt and pants. If anything I think it works too well and prevents me from removing the paddle holster when desired--which is the main selling point of paddle holsters. I resorted to grinding off the pant hook and shortening the two belt hooks by 1/8". It's still very secure but allows me to twist the holster off when needed.
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If you do have a retention holster and practice with it, do you practice under the stress of someone bearing down on you? Real pressure from a dedicated attacker? It made me switch to a more open top holster just from wrestling around with friends testing this type of stuff. I had a hard time getting the thumb break undone on the holster as I was fending off the person. Unfortunatley we all let our guard down sometimes and people get inside of our personal space.
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If you do have a retention holster and practice with it, do you practice under the stress of someone bearing down on you? Real pressure from a dedicated attacker?
Of course I can't speak for others, but I do practice weapon retention techniques. But it isn't something most CCW holders have to worry about. Here's an example of why I think retention holsters are a good idea for CCW holders:
A Utah man bagged a public toilet at Centerville’s Carl’s Jr. restaurant Tuesday when his gun fell out of its holster and misfired as he was pulling up his pants. Police said a Salt Lake City man received minor injuries to his arm from flying shards of porcelain when the .40-caliber bullet from his gun shattered the toilet as it hit the tile floor, The Salt Lake Tribune reported.
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Of course I can't speak for others, but I do practice weapon retention techniques. But it isn't something most CCW holders have to worry about. Here's an example of why I think retention holsters are a good idea for CCW holders:
A Utah man bagged a public toilet at Centerville’s Carl’s Jr. restaurant Tuesday when his gun fell out of its holster and misfired as he was pulling up his pants. Police said a Salt Lake City man received minor injuries to his arm from flying shards of porcelain when the .40-caliber bullet from his gun shattered the toilet as it hit the tile floor, The Salt Lake Tribune reported.
I think its primarily an argument for practicing your CCW for a few days with an unloaded gun before you start carrying a loaded gun. A reasonably careful and responsible adult should be able to drop trou without losing control of their gun, regardless of the holster!
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A reasonably careful and responsible adult should be able to drop trou without losing control of their gun, regardless of the holster!
Shit happens.
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I really like these discussions! Good stuff. I was really more concerned with people getting the gun into play if the retention holster were too complicated.
Just curious why you think CCW holders wouldn't need to worry about weapon retention. If someone is within arms reach, shouldn't we be worried about that?
Of course I can't speak for others, but I do practice weapon retention techniques. But it isn't something most CCW holders have to worry about. Here's an example of why I think retention holsters are a good idea for CCW holders:
A Utah man bagged a public toilet at Centerville’s Carl’s Jr. restaurant Tuesday when his gun fell out of its holster and misfired as he was pulling up his pants. Police said a Salt Lake City man received minor injuries to his arm from flying shards of porcelain when the .40-caliber bullet from his gun shattered the toilet as it hit the tile floor, The Salt Lake Tribune reported.
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I really like these discussions! Good stuff. I was really more concerned with people getting the gun into play if the retention holster were too complicated.
Just curious why you think CCW holders wouldn't need to worry about weapon retention. If someone is within arms reach, shouldn't we be worried about that?
Level one is more for keeping the sidearm from falling out, not keeping someone from grabbing it. Simply grabbing it from behind and using your own thumb or a 'chop' motion from the front will release the snap. A good friction fit will also prevent the firearm from falling out. Formed kydex does this well. Leather, check often and adjust tension.
Keeping someone from getting the weapon from an OWB holster is a matter of grabbing behind your holster below the belt line and pulling it out and up. Do it right and you'll break the miscreants thumb or a finger or two.
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I was really more concerned with people getting the gun into play if the retention holster were too complicated.
This is my opinion, but I think the three active retention devices I mentioned aren't too complicated, and feel natural with practice. You want complicated, try a traditional Level III duty holster with two snaps and a rocking motion to release the pistol. :) But even that is easily mastered with practice.
Just curious why you think CCW holders wouldn't need to worry about weapon retention. If someone is within arms reach, shouldn't we be worried about that?
Again my opinion, but the point of concealed carry is the "concealed" part--no one else should know you are carrying. It's still beneficial against gun grabs but I think secure retention against accidents is a bigger benefit. Good kydex would prevent the toilet incident but doesn't help if the pistol grip hooks on something as you lower your body--like when you slouch in a chair for example.
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I don't use retention holsters because I have literally hundreds of thousands of draws in competition using tension holsters, and I'm used to the feel. I've never had any trouble dropping trou -- you do have to pay attention -- but I've been carrying a gun since the dawn of time.
In truth, leather is more comfortable than kydex...Lou Alessi's holsters are as near to perfect IWBs as I've ever used, but Lou has enough orders to last him two forevers. At SHOT, I got an AWB from a new holstermaker and student of Lou's, John Ralston. It is a beautiful holster for my PARA Carry 9, and I'm going to wring it out. You guys will hear my results here first!
Given my druthers, I'll take the easy way out and use a Comp-Tac paddle, which conceals well under a jacket or a vest. Back when I had "leisure time," I would periodically go out and shoot an IDPA match with my IWB.
On practicing retention techniques, I'm for it with a caveat...training time is always limited, and I would rather see you guys put the time into the basics first. You'll probably see some retention stuff in THE BEST DEFENSE Season 2...or maybe 3. In the meantime, focus on a homily from trainer Dane Burns: "Distance is good; more distance is better."
Michael B
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I did a lot of research on weapon retention when I was teaching for Spyderco. Many cops carry a folding knife on their weak side with the belief that, if someone grabs their gun, they simply clamp down to keep the gun in the holster, draw the folding knife, pop it open, and carve the scumbag off their gun. Although the theory sounds good, most of them never really practiced drawing and opening a folder with their left hand. Even fewer thought about how those complex motor skills are affected when your engaged in a gross-motor-skill tug of war with the other hand. And virtually none of them had tried it while being punched in the face (which I did rather mercifully with light hits and a 16 ounce boxing glove).
The bottom line is that weapon retention is a combative skill. Much of what it taught technique-wise is developed from a shooter's mindset, not a fighter's mindset.
The technique that I finally settled on works with or without a knife, against left, right, or both hands grabbing, and--most importantly--as both a defensive and a pre-emptive reaction. Look for a complete description of it in my article on The Best Defense blog.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Mr. Janich,
Really enjoy your stuff and looking forward to possibly training with some of your guys in Columbus, OH
That's what I was getting at earlier when I mentioned some retention holster being overly complicated. It's easy to pop a thumb strap when you are standing still. Much different when someone is punching you or sticking you with something sharp.
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Thanks for the kind words, John.
I agree--retention works both ways. The last thing you want is a holster so secure that even you can't get your gun out.
Stay safe,
Mike
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A Utah man bagged a public toilet at Centerville’s Carl’s Jr. restaurant Tuesday when his gun fell out of its holster and misfired as he was pulling up his pants. Police said a Salt Lake City man received minor injuries to his arm from flying shards of porcelain when the .40-caliber bullet from his gun shattered the toilet as it hit the tile floor, The Salt Lake Tribune reported.
My general rule of thumb....NEVER POOP in a PUBLIC TOILET! ;D
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Here's another anecdotal story from another forum:
I was carrying a S&W Model 36 in a leather belt holster. Somehow the "Safety Strap" (thumb straps were new fangled and high tech in those days) became unsnapped. When I sat down at my desk, the chair arm snagged on the weapon, pulled it from the holster and dropped it on the floor behind me.
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Here's another anecdotal story from another forum:
I was carrying a S&W Model 36 in a leather belt holster. Somehow the "Safety Strap" (thumb straps were new fangled and high tech in those days) became unsnapped. When I sat down at my desk, the chair arm snagged on the weapon, pulled it from the holster and dropped it on the floor behind me.
oops