The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: PoorSoulInJersey on January 04, 2009, 03:21:52 PM
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I'm a relatively new rifle shooter, having just picked up my first AR and a Remington 700. I'm OK with a handgun, but this longer range stuff feels like a new world to me.
I can shoot decent groups at 100 yards (8" to 10".... not great....) and I want to get better.
I've read all the stuff on trigger break, breathing, bracing the rifle, body position.... and I'm just not sure how to put that into practice. Most of the books I've seen on marksmanship and long distance shooting talk about equipment and handloading for 150 pages, then say the same thing as the US Infantry manual does about shooting, without any information on how to really DO it.
I have two real questions:
1) What should I be doing in my practice sessions to become a better shot?
2) What is considered a decent shot? (how tight a group, how far off target, etc)
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I should add, I'm just talking at the range. I have a local 100- and 300-yard range I can use to practice (plus an indoor 25 yard range that allows high power rifles).
I'm not looking at hunting or tactical shooting,
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2 inch groups at 100 yards are VERY do-able.
I think consistancy through getting the same sight picture, breathing and squeeze are the most basic. It really should surprise you when it goes off. If you have held your breath too long or uncomfortable in any way, STOP and start all over again.
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I'm a relatively new rifle shooter, having just picked up my first AR and a Remington 700. I'm OK with a handgun, but this longer range stuff feels like a new world to me.
I can shoot decent groups at 100 yards (8" to 10".... not great....) and I want to get better.
I've read all the stuff on trigger break, breathing, bracing the rifle, body position.... and I'm just not sure how to put that into practice. Most of the books I've seen on marksmanship and long distance shooting talk about equipment and handloading for 150 pages, then say the same thing as the US Infantry manual does about shooting, without any information on how to really DO it.
I have two real questions:
1) What should I be doing in my practice sessions to become a better shot?
2) What is considered a decent shot? (how tight a group, how far off target, etc)
Get thee to an Appleseed - they will teach you everything you need to know, and you will have fun - and be tired at the end of the weekend.
Go here: http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/)
Schedule here: http://www.appleseedinfo.org/as_schedule.htm (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/as_schedule.htm)
A bunch in NC (RWVA's home base), some in MA, one in NY each month this summer. Enjoy!
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what I do is use smaller targets. If I'm shooting at a big black bullseye. I will have a big group, if I'm shooting at a 4", my groups will be well under 4"
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Tab I'm surprised you did not provide the link from one of your previous posts.
Here it is. http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_the_M1_Rifle
That the rifle is an M1 does not matter, it all starts with the fundamentals, which apply to any firearm including the long gun.
Good position, sight alignment, trigger control, repeatability, understanding the conditions and how to read the wind and mirage and adjust accordingly. This series of films go's a long way toward that understanding. NRA rifle targets are 2 minutes of angle for the 10 ring, and 1 moa for the X. So with iron sights, 2 moa is hitting the good stuff at any given range, yes that is a 20" circle at 1,000 yards. The 9 ring is 3moa, so if you can keep them all in the 9, with a few 10's thrown in, that is above 90% possible score. ;D That is expert. ;)
Poorsoul, you did not mention if you were going to be shooting optics or irons or both. Learn your sight adjustment increments for both, it's pretty easy, for irons, but sometimes you need a calculator for optics if you have 1/4 to 1/8 minute clicks and your going for extended range. By the way, NRA highpower rifle considers 800 yards, medium range. ???
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Poorsoul, you did not mention if you were going to be shooting optics or irons or both. Learn your sight adjustment increments for both, it's pretty easy, for irons, but sometimes you need a calculator for optics if you have 1/4 to 1/8 minute clicks and your going for extended range. By the way, NRA highpower rifle considers 800 yards, medium range. ???
Right now I'm shooting iron sites on the AR (It's an M4A3), but I have optics on the way.
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Learn to shoot well with the iron sights first, until you have learned the basics optics will just give you a better look at a crappy group.
Pathfinder is right, You need an Appleseed or some comparable training in the BASICS of rifle shooting.
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Hey there Pour Soul...I too am in Jersey...still waiting for pistol permits from early December...
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Hey there Pour Soul...I too am in Jersey...still waiting for pistol permits from early December...
Don't you love our state? I was able to get a "Jersey legal" AR, which really can't have too many fun accessories :-(
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Get a rimfire rifle and learn to shoot a rifle. Then practice, practice, and practice some more with the rimfire. it will be a lot easier for you to realize what mistakes you are making in technique (not to mention cheaper) using a rimfire. Precision rimfire rifles will teach or reinforce what you need to know for shooting centerfires. Don't skimp on the ammo either as in rimfire ammo you almost always get what you pay for. I would go ahead and use a scope as it will speed you along the process. Invest in the gear you will need to be accurate for whatever method you are/will be using. If shooting off a bench get good bags that allow you to shoot without having to think about it or fidget around before-during-after each shot. If shooting prone/sitting there are several good shooting "sticks" that are much more useful than the bipods that are found at Walmart and most gun stores.
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Get good with a .22 first. There's no chance of flinching in anticipation of the recoil, and ammo is a fraction of the cost.
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Precision Rifle Shooting is just an extension of basic rifle marksmanship. There are 4 fundamentals in marksmanship: Breathing, Aiming, Trigger Squeeze, and Steady Position. Precision rifle shooting is a disciplined sport. Consistency is the key and this relates to the rifle platform, ammunition, and shooter. We want the same thing to happen each and every time we pull the trigger. This can get very detailed, especially when dealing with internal ballistics, so for now I would focus on the basic fundamentals. Fundamentals are what we always fall back on for everything we do, whether or not we are conscience of doing so.
Breathing: Your body has a natural pause - a point where all movement in the body is minimal and we are in a relaxed state. This is on the down breath in our breathing cycle or when we exhale all the air out of our lungs. If we are not relaxed or have to physically hold that rifle on the target - we'll miss. You can comfortably hold this position for up to 10 seconds – depending on the shooter.
Aiming: Aiming is the relationship between your eye, the optic, and the target area. When looking through your optics, you want to have a full field of view. This means that you are looking through your scope and you do not see any black shadows in the viewing area. This is scope shadow and if this is in the viewing area, the focal planes within the optic are not properly aligned and our point of aim will not match up with our point of impact. We will generally impact in the exact opposite point of where we are aiming. Prevent this with proper eye relief. This is the proper placement of your scope on your rifle's optical base and rings. Also with proper eye relief, you should never worry about being hit with your scope during the recoiling of the rifle.
Cheek/Stock Weld: This is the point on the rifle where we rest our face. They call it a weld because your face should be stuck to that stock until that particular shooting iteration is over. When we take our face off of the rifle between shots, we are changing our point of aim - whether it appears that way or not. Remember: Consistency = Accuracy.
Trigger Pull: We want to pull the trigger in a slow/smooth/deliberate manner. One of the posts earlier mentioned that it should surprise you when going off. I disagree. You should know the point that your rifle will allow that firing pin to fall and strike that cartridge's primer. I have been instructing on the larger calibers which offer the higher recoil and I have seen many on the line who didn't know exactly when that rifle was going to fire. They will anticipate the recoil which inadvertently forces their body to react. Now, this will eventually go away as you pull the trigger more but my point is you should know and understand as much as possible when it comes to your rifle/ammunition (your tools), and timing is everything.
Pull the trigger in a slow/smooth/deliberate manner and hold it to the rear until all movement within the rifle has stopped - and then count to 2. We are attempting to prevent any movement caused by pulling the trigger. No matter how fast that powder ignites, pushing that projectile down the bore, we can still affect it while it's inside of the rifle. When we hold the trigger to the rear, it aids in preventing us from hastily "jerking" the trigger. When we are counting to 2, this is our mind forcing our body to react. Unless you are mentally aware of holding that trigger to the rear, you won't. Trust me on that - I see it in every single course. But that's ok, even though we are talking about the fundamentals, or basics, there is still a lot of things going on at once. That is where our mental discipline comes in.
Steady Position: We want to fire this rifle with as steady of a position as possible. Depending on what you are shooting, the recoil phase is one of the most critical. Some of the larger calibers and magnum cartridges will provide you with an extreme recoil pulse that will push the muzzle all over the place. We are looking for consistency and want the projectile to be leaving the muzzle at the same point each time - especially when it comes to shooting for groups. You have 2-3 points of contact with your rifle, depending on how your position is set up. But the 3rd is the most important and that is where the rifle comes into contact with the shooter. It is important to drive the rifle and not let it drive you. The rifle is recoiling to the rear regardless of what you are shooting, and you are that stopping force behind it. I always suggest utilizing some sort of shooting bag that will help absorb that recoil - in conjunction with your body. When we shoot the larger calibers, we use a bag of sand that is slightly larger than the traditional sand sock. I normally take a full sandbag and empty it out to where it is roughly 1/3 full and tape it up so it doesn’t settle as much when you do fire. Then lay your body on it and rest the tip of the butt-stock into it and support the rest of it with your shoulder. It is important to note that you are the one controlling the rifle - not the bag. So keep this in mind when setting up your position. I would assume that your Remington 700 is chambered in .308 WIN, so you don't necessarily need anything that large behind the rifle. The overall goal with this technique is to utilize an additional force to help absorb the full recoil your body will be taking. Tailor this as necessary.
Natural Point of Aim is where the rifle naturally rests in relation to the shooter’s position. You do not want to physically hold your crosshairs on the target. During the recoiling phase, the rifle will move to where it is naturally resting in relation to the shooter’s position. This means you want to be in your relaxed, ready to fire state once your crosshairs are on the desired impact point. To do this, take up a good steady position, point of aim, exhale all of the air out of your lungs, and close your eyes. Hold this relaxed position for a few seconds and then open your eyes. If your crosshairs have not moved, then you and your rifle are utilizing your natural point of aim.
Fundamentals will make or break you in precision shooting, especially at the further distances. I can go on and on about this, but I don’t want to take up the entire board. Just remember this one equation in precision long range shooting: Consistency = Accuracy.
Good luck on your new shooting endeavor.
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Many Appleseed Shoots scheduled in 2009 all over the US. Two day rifle marksmanship class that will show and train you in the first day what many have not been able to do on their own in years of trying. Great instructors and all non-profit so it is cheap.
What is April 19, 1775? RWVA will be having 50 Appleseed Shoots the weekend April 18-19, 2009. Go to the website www.appleseedinfo.com and become a rifleman. Ladies too.
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+1 on Appleseed...we'll be filming one for SHOOTING GALLERY this year.
I am by no means a great rifle shot, but there are two things I focus on above all else...cheek weld and trigger pull. I try to envision my cheek literally welded to the rifle stock, every single time. I take several breaths, and with each breath I visualize myself relaxing more and more and "sinking" into the rifle's stock. On the trigger pull, I want my strong hand to be totally relaxed, with only the trigger finger moving, drawing the trigger straight back. I consciously pause my breath and about half-way through an exhale when I begin my trigger pull, I make DARN sure I fully follow-through on the trigger pull; that is, I pull straight back through and consciously hold the trigger back for a couple of heartbeats before releasing it.
On shooting groups, it depends on the gun. With a bolt gun or a trick AR, I think minute-of-angle is a great goal...essentially 1-inch at 100 yards, 2-inches at 200 yards, etc. With a service AR and iron sights, 2-3 inches at 100 yards is excellent. You may not get there tomorrow or next week or next month, but you will get there. Remember that in hunting and personal defense, speed and accuracy need to be in balance. You don't need a perfect shot, you need a shot delivered with the necessary accuracy in the necessary time span.
I would also strongly urge you to purchase a .22 rifle. Ruger 10/22s are the baseline against which all others are judged, but since you already have an AR might I suggest a .22 conversion unit like our giveaway gun this month from our pals at Tactical Solutions. Pop the conversion unit on and you have the same trigger pull, stock, etc, and a cheap way to shoot a lot. Whatever optic you use on the 5.56 top end, mirror that on the .22...and because it's a .22, you don't have to go full boat. There are excellent inexpensive .22 rimfire scopes and red dots that will give you the same sight picture as you have on your primary top end.
Alternately, you could go with a high-quality pellet gun (I have a Gamo Whisper .177). My old producer on SG, Robin Berg, became a superb rifleman by shooting only pellet guns. The more you shoot, the better you will get.
I totally understand what you're going through, because the vison is failing in my right eye, and I am having to learn to shoot left hand/left eye with rifle and shotgun. Frustrating to the extreme!!!
Hang in there...it gets better.
Michael B
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it's funny you mention the Ruger, I just picked up a 22/45 for exactly that purpose (I kind of splurged, getting the Ruger, a Kimber Stainless Raptor II, an S&W 620, and an HK USP Elite 9mm). I reckon that sets me on hardware for a little while...
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Practicing the basics is all it takes, That's all they do at Camp Perry, careful application of the basic rules for making one perfect shot, repeated umpteen times, that's the part that determines the winner,who can make "One perfect shot" the most times. They are not competing against the other shooters, they are competing against range conditions and thier own personal ability to flub the basics.
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Practicing the basics is all it takes, That's all they do at Camp Perry, careful application of the basic rules for making one perfect shot, repeated umpteen times, that's the part that determines the winner,who can make "One perfect shot" the most times. They are not competing against the other shooters, they are competing against range conditions and thier own personal ability to flub the basics.
+1....we are our own biggest competition.
I was on the Rifle Team in high school. We shot bolt guns that looked and felt like Springfield 1903's, just in .22lr. The team coach had us pair off to practice trigger control. To do this, the shooter got into firing position while the other balanced a dime on the end of the barrel. We had to break the trigger without dropping the dime.
8)
http://www.state.me.us/newsletter/backissues/Sept2000/maine_army_national_guard_marksm.htm
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PEGLEG, were you born a YANKEE ;D
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Man, that was so long ago now you'd have to put a stack of 20s on the end of the barrel.
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PEGLEG, were you born a YANKEE ;D
Nah, southern boy to the bone. ;)
But, I appreciate good common sense and ingenuity regardless of geographic location. ;D
Actually, I was born in Nevada (dad was in the Air Force). Moved back to south Georgia when I was just a few months old.
I put the link in to show that I was not BS-ing about the dimes. Figured some folks would think I was making it up. ;D
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Ok, I'm going to admit to something and hope it does not jinx me or turn out it is all just a fluke anyway.
I started shooting bullseye a couple years ago. My goal has been to do better from match to match, but mostly annual improvements. So far I have gone from high two hundreds the first year to mid to upper three hundreds the second year to this year I have a 445, 441 and 489 with a total 18-X.
The first thing I did was google bullseye and read up on trainging tips. I came across the U.S. Army training manual and printed it out. Year two I cut back on caffene for two days before match and none the day of. I also carry the "wheel of misfortune" in my shooting bag to make instant adjustments to my errors.
This year has been the biggest change, and I hate to admit to what I have done ... I actually adjusted my diet slightly, but mostly I have been getting some exercise. I can't believe how much difference it has made in steadiness of my hold and shot grouping.
I am already a week behind on smallbore, and I am looking forward to see what improvements I have there. Trust me, I have a lot of area for change there.
The key to practice is research what the successful are doing and imitate them. I still have a long way to go, as you can see, but so far bullseye is headed the right direction. Hopefully it will carry over to the other games as well.
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M58, are you shooting the 90 round course or 180 round course?
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M58, are you shooting the 90 round course or 180 round course?
60
10 shots per target - 2 slow fire (10 shots in 10 minutes), 2 timed fire (two strings of five shots in 20 seconds per string) and 2 rapid fire (two strings of five in 10 seconds per string).
Fifty foot with .22 - I'm using my Ruger Mark III
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/MarkIII.jpg)
Also doing the same course in center fire. This is the first year, and I'm going to use my S&W M&P 9. I was practicing last week, and the Para I'm getting for USPSA Limited is better (meaning I did better with it), but it is going in for a rebuild and I need trigger time on the M&P.
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Ok, I'm going to admit to something and hope it does not jinx me or turn out it is all just a fluke anyway.
I started shooting bullseye a couple years ago. My goal has been to do better from match to match, but mostly annual improvements. So far I have gone from high two hundreds the first year to mid to upper three hundreds the second year to this year I have a 445, 441 and 489 with a total 18-X.
The first thing I did was google bullseye and read up on trainging tips. I came across the U.S. Army training manual and printed it out. Year two I cut back on caffene for two days before match and none the day of. I also carry the "wheel of misfortune" in my shooting bag to make instant adjustments to my errors.
This year has been the biggest change, and I hate to admit to what I have done ... I actually adjusted my diet slightly, but mostly I have been getting some exercise. I can't believe how much difference it has made in steadiness of my hold and shot grouping.
I am already a week behind on smallbore, and I am looking forward to see what improvements I have there. Trust me, I have a lot of area for change there.
The key to practice is research what the successful are doing and imitate them. I still have a long way to go, as you can see, but so far bullseye is headed the right direction. Hopefully it will carry over to the other games as well.
Lowering the heart rate is one of the biggest ways to improve Bullseye (probably any type) shooting. I used to belong to a local club that shot a Bullseye match once a month. We shot the 60 round course with 30 rimfire and 30 center fire at 25 yards (slow) and 15 yards (timed and rapid).
In my best days, I was regularly good for 500 to 525 out of 600. There were a couple of members who shot 580 regularly. Of course they traveled around the southeast area shooting matches every weekend.
I still like the bullseye game.
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I put the link in to show that I was not BS-ing about the dimes. Figured some folks would think I was making it up. ;D
Come on Peg! Everyone knows that Pirates are the "Salt of the Earth"...never go back on the "Code"....ARGHHHHH!!!!