The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: jason10mm on January 07, 2009, 02:48:03 PM
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Hey guys, new to the forum. LOVED TBD #1, the first minute alone told me this was not the typical OC fluff show (of course Mr. Banes podcast forewarned me on what to expect).
My question to the forum is about how to condition a dog towards home defense. Not particularly as an offensive tool, but more as a warning device.
I have a chihuahua which will bark at a squirrel fart three blocks away. My natural response is "SHUT UP!", but I relaize that I may eventually condition my dog to NOT bark at a more serious event, like a guy in the yard or coming in through a back window. My dog will bark at door jingles ONLY if myself or my wife is in the house. Coming home first means she is quiet until she actually sees me (she is a good guard dog, but not the best watchdog, I suppose).
Anyway, I wonder if there is any advice, or perhaps a point in the right direction, on how to evaulate a dogs ability to respond appropriately to bad guys (i.e. have a stranger [to the dog] try to break in?), or at least ways to condition them to not bark at every little thing and save it for important stuff (i.e. bark at humans in the window, ignore the cats or guys across the street).
I frequently see "get a dog!" listed as a means of securing your home, but there is no follow up as to what to do with them. I wouldn't give "get a gun!" as an answer without advising training, is there an analagous training source for dogs?
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training the dog to know what is bark worthy and what is not. when it's the flatulent squirrel tell her to shut up in a stern tone, when it's someone coming to the door reward her. also, listen to her barks, I'm NOT a dog trainer, but years ago my Dad lived quite a ways off the road and had several dogs, after listening to them I realized that one tone meant that a vehicle had turned onto the road another tone meant that a vehicle was coming into the yard, also different tones if they recognized the vehicle or it was strange. Yet another quieter tone of bark followed by the sound of the chains going into the dog houses and silence meant there was a bear or moose around, They were decent watch dogs but maybe not the bravest beasts in the woods ;D
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Rob and Michael, I too would like to hear more on this also.
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training the dog to know what is bark worthy and what is not. when it's the flatulent squirrel tell her to shut up in a stern tone, when it's someone coming to the door reward her. also, listen to her barks, I'm NOT a dog trainer, but years ago my Dad lived quite a ways off the road and had several dogs, after listening to them I realized that one tone meant that a vehicle had turned onto the road another tone meant that a vehicle was coming into the yard, also different tones if they recognized the vehicle or it was strange. Yet another quieter tone of bark followed by the sound of the chains going into the dog houses and silence meant there was a bear or moose around, They were decent watch dogs but maybe not the bravest beasts in the woods ;D
Bullseye!
There it is in a nutshell
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I have always had dogs and have gone thru this before. I have 3 dogs now. 1 who barks at everything, 1 that barks when the other one barks and 1 that don't bark unless there is really a perceived threat. IMO it comes down to the type of dog and its temperament. Also gender has to be taken into account. Male dogs are much more Territorial than females. Small dogs (even mutts) are pest controllers and are barkers. Larger dogs are more relaxed . The only way to change a dogs behavior is to distract them each time an unwanted behavior shows up. Yelling wont work, but usually a calm voice along with a distraction will. I have a miniature Daschound a chow/black lab mix and a boxer/ american bulldog mix. the Daschound is male and a barker, the boxer is quiet and the lab is a semi barker.
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My ratter, (Yorkie), though not too bright will bark at strangers but after he does the "meet and great" and knows them, he definately changes the tone of his bark. Almost like a anticipatory mumble of sorts, kind of talks a little...After a time, he will let out a little yip and go to the door to welcome them.
Strangers who walk the street or turn into the drive alarm him regardless as does the rabbit flatulating in the back yard at 0300...(3:00 am for you civies)...
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The details of dog breeds and the details of training are not my area of expertise, but I'll check with some experienced K-9 trainers and see if I can get any further insights.
From personal experience, I agree with the idea of reinforcing desired behavior and discouraging/scolding the behavior you don't want. However, the key to that is knowing the difference. I have a female half Shepherd/half Chow. She's a great dog that we chose for her mild temperament when my daughter was small. Although she's very mellow and quiet, when someone approaches the door she goes ballistic and the hair on her back goes up in a very aggressive "stripe." Although it's sometimes annoying that she does this--especially when you know who's coming to the door--we NEVER discourage it. Instead we praise and reward it.
Conversely, when she's staring out the back window barking at the squirrel on the fence, we tell her to be quiet. However, we only do that when we KNOW that it's a squirrel and not an intruder in the back yard. When she complies and shuts up, we praise that too.
She's not the smartest dog in the world, but we've managed to teach her the difference between what we consider good and bad reasons to bark and posture. We also continue to reinforce that behavior with praise and treats.
One thing we NEVER do is tell strangers that "she's a sweet dog, don't worry." First, we don't open the door for strangers and let the dog barking do most of the deterrent work. If it's a delivery we're expecting, like a pizza or Fedex, I keep her right beside me and let her growl. I'm sure she considers anything in a UPS or Fedex uniform a food group, and I'm fine with them thinking that.
I hope this helps.
Stay safe,
Mike
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She's not the smartest dog in the world
Well, you are at a huge advantage over me...... I do believe that my little mutt is probably the dumbest dog in the world. ;D
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Heh heh, and that still makes him smarter than 90% of the folks I know :P
Thanks for all the advice. I guess I'm just looking for a good dog training manual like all the good shooting books out there. My current yapper is probably beyond hope at this point though.
I once read a book by some dog breeding monks, blanking on the name ATM. Anyway, raising/training dogs is like one of those inherent guy skills we all THINK we know, just like shooting. I hear all sorts of wierd stories about what K-9 guys do to create a bond with their animals, but it is hard to find actual data. I'm sure there are some military/police manuals I could scrounge up, or maybe the latest Caesar Milan book :P
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I'd be satisfied if I could just teach my dog not to be afraid of the toaster. >:(
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I am no expert, but I have found that once you get accustomed to your dogs behaviors you can more easily train them. Most dogs don't instantly bark, they usually perk up and look towards the sound or object. When I was training my dog I would say "ok" when I saw this and go with him see the problem. After some time he would not bark if I said this or bark a lot if I said nothing. It also helps to talk calmly and relaxed while training, with my dog if I use a louder tone than normal he suspects a problem and becomes more alert. Training is a lot of conditioning their natural behaviors for your benefit and with a considerable amount of time and patience training your dog can be very rewarding. My dog took some time to train he was picked up in a police raid and spent a good amount of time in the pound, it took 3 months to get him into a car without a struggle.
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Looks like he had no problem with the "Mugshot" ;D
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I'd be satisfied if I could just teach my dog not to be afraid of the toaster. >:(
Toasters are scary thinks Frank! I hear you can put an eye out with one!!!! 8)
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If I was looking for a dog to fill the place you need I'd look at several things and they pertain to obedience training and protection. I'd like to see a dog with drive for a ball or toy and I would check his reactions to several different situations I created.
The point of drive (stimulation and reward) for obedience points to an ability be motivated for work. For protection you'd look at the animal's responses to different stimulation... response to noise in the street, in the driveway, opening car doors and knocking on the front door. Generally a dog will show interest to the vehicle that rolls up to your house as well as a knock on the door and that usually means barking. What does the dog look like when this happens? Let me tell you what perfect looks like. The dog will stand upright or tilt forward. He will stand straight up and have long strides, relaxed muscles, an erect neck, a head held high and give direct eye contact. The ears will point forward and he;ll have a high tail set. The barking will not be rhythmic (repetitive). A dog that looks like the one described will show confident barking and he will not back up or lean backwards, the ears won't go back, the head will not go down and he will not avert the eyes.
The dog whose hairs come up is showing insecurity and fear. If you pet (reward) the dog for it you typically reinforce that behavior. I'd ignore it and expect obedience. When my little female shep hears noise she arks and I take her to the front door and have her sit. She must sit until I release her (free- OK etc). I make her deal with whatever she sees on her own but she must look to me for direction.
So, you need to see clearly who and what your dog is and accept it. Then you need to implement a plan for what you want him to do - how you want him to behave. He's dying to find out! Work around his limitations and get the most that you can from him.
Frankly, I want an obedient early warnng system. If the shtf I want a dog that will do what I tell him even if that means lie down - don't move - be quiet, I'll deal with it. If you want a dog that will take out the person who knocks your door down regardless you will need to look for a dog with good nerves that will operate from defense not prey. Finding that out is the next level.
Good luck over there. :)
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My family dog is an 85lb female boxer. She is EXTREMELY protective of my daughter and all her little friends. It is a function of her breeding, as boxers were bred as herding, and protection animals for livestock. They are tough and hardy, built to handle wolves and as such, do well on softer flesh...like humans who threaten their kids. Female boxers are especially protective of children. My 5 year old daughter has a permanent stubby tailed fawn colored shadow.
When there is a noise outside, the dog alerts, and if someone steps onto our porch, she goes into what I call LOUD TERMINATOR LANDSHARK mode. When I get up, she quiets down to a low, steady growl as I answer the door. She is very sweet, but with the flat, black face, she looks menacing and hazardous. Boxers have none of the so-called "dangerous dog" reputation that you will get with a rottie, sheperd, chow, dobe, etc...
As a note, female boxers have a more dominant personality than male boxers. My female had to be taught from day one, that I was the alpha in the house, followed by my wife and my daughter. This isn't hard to do, if you are willing to take the time and form the habits needed to make it stick.
NEVER punish your dog for barking at a door knock, or doorbell. Get up, and go to the door, and then praise the dog for doing a good job. Then YOU, as the alpha dispatch the "threat". The lower pack member's job is to alert you, that's what they get paid for.
NEVER let your dog lead YOU through a doorway. You claim it as YOUR doorway, everything in your house is YOURS. The alpha ALWAYS leads and chooses the direction of travel.
NEVER let your dog win a tug-of-war with their chew toy. When the game is over YOU keep the toy and put it away. The alpha chooses playtime.
When you feed, make sure you put the food down AFTER the family has eaten. The alpha chooses when the rest of the pack eats.
NEVER walk around your dog. Make the dog move. The alpha doesn't move aside/around ANY lower ranking pack member.
NEVER pet or praise the dog when it is in an excited state. Make it calm down, and you choose when it will get affection or praise.
NEVER go TO the dog to give affection, call it to you and then give it affection. When you call the dog for praise, affection, or feeding, use it's name. NEVER use it's name when you are calling it for corrective action.
You don't need to train a dog for protection, their natural instincts will generally take over when it is time to do it's part in protecting the pack. I have trained my boxer to go into her crazy barking hackle up terminator mode on verbal command from me. It is one heck of a good deterrent, or distraction of I have to draw my weapon.
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NEVER punish your dog for barking at a door knock, or doorbell. Get up, and go to the door, and then praise the dog for doing a good job. Then YOU, as the alpha dispatch the "threat". The lower pack member's job is to alert you, that's what they get paid for.
NEVER let your dog lead YOU through a doorway. You claim it as YOUR doorway, everything in your house is YOURS. The alpha ALWAYS leads and chooses the direction of travel.
NEVER let your dog win a tug-of-war with their chew toy. When the game is over YOU keep the toy and put it away. The alpha chooses playtime.
When you feed, make sure you put the food down AFTER the family has eaten. The alpha chooses when the rest of the pack eats.
NEVER walk around your dog. Make the dog move. The alpha doesn't move aside/around ANY lower ranking pack member.
NEVER pet or praise the dog when it is in an excited state. Make it calm down, and you choose when it will get affection or praise.
NEVER go TO the dog to give affection, call it to you and then give it affection. When you call the dog for praise, affection, or feeding, use it's name. NEVER use it's name when you are calling it for corrective action.
You don't need to train a dog for protection, their natural instincts will generally take over when it is time to do it's part in protecting the pack. I have trained my boxer to go into her crazy barking hackle up terminator mode on verbal command from me. It is one heck of a good deterrent, or distraction of I have to draw my weapon.
That's good info, I was aware of most of it, but the refresher was helpful. I've got a husky-aussie mix that works well in the HD role, but he's a bit headstrong and needs a bit of guidance. The biggest challenge I have now is getting him to not jump on company. He considers it play, but at 95 lbs it can be a bit intimidating for the timid. He grabbed my 8 yr. old granddaughter by her camera bag and took off down the yard with her. I'm trying to give him a bit more exercise that doesn't involve child dragging.