The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: 1776 Rebel on January 09, 2009, 12:34:22 PM
-
The other night I was watching a Fox reporter doing his thing from the Gaza Strip. I also tuned into the show Tactical Impact. Bingo ! Everyone is wearing body armor. With the recent focus here on TBD, home invasions etc. Wouldn't a resistant vest be a nice thing to have in that 'go to' room? I have seen dealers at gunshows selling them. Also you can get them online for around 500 bucks. About the cost of a handgun. Has anyone taken that route? If so what were your thoughts that got you there? And how did you select the vest?
-
no time to put it on.
-
What if your wife or kids are in the room with you? Can't they be putting it on while you take care of business?
-
What if your wife or kids in the room with you? Can't they be putting it on while you take care of business?
Vests need to be properly sized. Mine would offer little protection for my smaller wife much less kids. It just would not cover the spots.
Maybe the wife could hold the vest like a blanket in front of her.
I have three for work, one undershirt style, one patrol over the shirt and one plate carrier.
They all use the same soft armor, the plate carrier having spots for front and rear hard plates. I could get into the plate carrier pretty quickly, but I tend to agree with TAB.
Many vests you see overseas are for fragments not projectiles. They are worthless for home defense.
None of my vests will stop a knife. Thats another kind of vest all together
-
Also in some states and municipalities body armor is legal for civilians :(
-
I remember seeing a vest somewhere that looked very much like the old American League umpires chest protector. It was designed for the home and to be thrown on quickly. You just slipped it on over your neck and arms. Anyone else remember seeing one like this?
-
no time to put it on.
Maybe, if we ever get to the point of TEOTWAWKI, we'll all be walking around in them as business as usual. …or hiding in holes/bunkers with them.
-
I have one and use it when I'm reloading. Never thought of using it for home defense ::)
-
I have one and use it when I'm reloading. Never thought of using it for home defense ::)
Have you ever had any rounds go off while reloading?
-
While standard body armor may not be the best way to go, some type of protective equipment stored in the safe room is good food for thought, we keep life jackets on boats right. Just the designation and a reinforced door do not make a "safe room"Every situation whether boating or working, even Bicycling has some type of safety equipment.
Due to legal, size, and convenience considerations, "vests" per se may not work, but lets examine the possibilities for maximizing the protection offered by your "home sanctuary".
-
Good Point, Tom.
Several companies sell collapsible ballistic protection shields that are sold to Executive Protection as well as security companies every day. In this field the idea of putting clients in soft body armor is also standard practice under certain circumstances. Ballistic "blankets" designed for use in rooms or vehicles are also common.
Meanwhile:
I used my usually effective Google-Skills for the last 10-15 minutes and could find NO law barring the ownership of soft body armor by non-felons who are not in the process of committing a crime anywhere in the United States. Connecticut has a weird law restricting sales to non-military or LE personnel to only those which are "Face to Face". So, (felons aside) I couldn't find any restriction from having a vest, shield or blanket stashed in your safe room in your home for the use of you or your family.
If anyone has a reference to an actual law or ordinance contrary to what I didn't find, please post here! The absence of evidence of a law in my cursory search certainly doesn't mean that there isn't one somewhere, so check with your local District Attorney's office or a lawyer (be sure to get an actual law/ordinance cited if they tell you you can't have it).
-RJP
-
Rob, great post! What do you think about the ballistic backpacks that they are selling for kids? I imagine that one of these could be strapped on backwards real fast in a pinch. Hopefully, I'd never really have to have my daughters wearing them. I have an Art History book from back in college that's near 5 inches thick and 15 pounds. Would that possibly stop a bullet if it were in a backwards pack? Pretty cheesy, but I've always wondered. The weight may even absorb part of the shock. ;)
http://www.mychildspack.com/
-
Patriots makes the point that after TEOTWAWKI all the smart people will wear vests 24/7.
After reading Patriots, I thought about the utility of using Kevlar blankets on the inside of outer walls in a retreat location. Of course, I don't have a retreat, and my current home is almost completely indefensible making Kevlar pointless. Not to mention the fact that I don't have any cash for Kevlar. Oh well, it's just a thought . . . :(
-
Also in some states and municipalities body armor is legal for civilians :(
Why do you feel this way cookie62? Threat of felons and badguys using them for no-good? Would it be okay is the honest..law-abbiding citizens used it in their home? Would it be okay if police have them and everyone else not? Would that be right or fair? Should we fear the police? Should the police fear the honest civilian? I have family that work in law enforcement..so I understand both sides.. I just wondered why the frowny..
-
Rob, great post!
All of his posts have been great posts!
-
Why do you feel this way cookie62? Threat of felons and badguys using them for no-good? Would it be okay is the honest..law-abbiding citizens used it in their home? Would it be okay if police have them and everyone else not? Would that be right or fair? Should we fear the police? Should the police fear the honest civilian? I have family that work in law enforcement..so I understand both sides.. I just wondered why the frowny..
I took his post to be a "mis-type" and that he really meant illegal. Of course I could just be mis-reading it. ;D
-
I took his post to be a "mis-type" and that he really meant illegal. Of course I could just be mis-reading it. ;D
That was my understanding as well and it was reinforced by Rob's post. That's why I type ONE FINGERED. ;D
-
If anyone has a reference to an actual law or ordinance contrary to what I didn't find, please post here! The absence of evidence of a law in my cursory search certainly doesn't mean that there isn't one somewhere, so check with your local District Attorney's office or a lawyer (be sure to get an actual law/ordinance cited if they tell you you can't have it).
-RJP
Well I know for sure that after the Hollywood shootout it was PROPOSED to make POSSESSION of a vest a FELONY in NYC. Don't know if in fact it ever passed. Armoring a car in NY requires registration. But seeing that slingshots are also a class A Misdemeanor (1 yr in jail 10K fine) it wouldn't surprise me.
Also poor PhilW in Australia is out of luck... :)
update:
NY State penal code
**********************************************
Section 270.20 Unlawful wearing of a body vest
1. A person is guilty of the unlawful wearing of a body vest when acting either alone or with one or more other persons he commits any violent felony offense defined in section 70.02 while possessing a firearm, rifle or shotgun and in the course of and in furtherance of such crime he wears a body vest.
2. For the purposes of this section a "body vest" means a bullet-resistant soft body armor providing, as a minimum standard, the level of protection known as threat level I which shall mean at least seven layers of bullet-resistant material providing protection from three shots of one hundred fifty-eight grain lead ammunition fired from a .38 calibre handgun at a velocity of eight hundred fifty feet per second.
The unlawful wearing of a body vest is a class E felony.
*********************************************
So now I am thinking that an aggressive DA would want to tag this on to a home owner who shoots an invader.
Yuk.... please beam me up Scotty.
-
They also keep proposing "shall issue" in Jersey.... ::).
******
I haven't seen those backpacks before... not a horrible idea.
Going back to what Ratcatcher said, it is true that concealable vests, or any that are going to be worn for extended periods, should be fitted for the best coverage and comfort, but any ballasitic panel can offer protection. The main issue on the effectiveness of armor in terms of fitting is that the armor itself cannot be "pushed" out of the path of the bullet.... in which case it would not have been pentrated, but would also not protect the person on the other side.
When I took over operations at Valhalla there was an area that was protected by some custom made 16' long, 4' wide level III ballistic blankets that hung from the ceiling and overlapped. One of the concerns was that the overlapping areas could fail. Shortly after examining this area, it was redesigned and the blankets were removed (side note, I gave a couple of them to some SF units that came in for predeployment training back in the days when they were having trouble getting their HMMVs uparmored.....).
These types of blankets can be ordered in just about any size or shape to suit your needs... including inserts for briefcases, bakcpacks, whatever.
-RJP
-
How do those blankets function ? I have heard of them but never SEEN one, do you get thumped but not penetrated or do they need some sort of stiff backing?
-
The blankets do cost a chunk of change....the shield is a little bit cheaper.
http://www.botachtactical.com/usarbabl.html
http://www.bestsafetyapparel.com/bo3.html
-
The blankets do cost a chunk of change....the shield is a little bit cheaper.
http://www.botachtactical.com/usarbabl.html
http://www.bestsafetyapparel.com/bo3.html
Rob -
Second link in this post contains a message "Exporting Level III and IV armor plates requires a U.S. State Department export permit. Some countries may require a Department of Commerce export license for Body Armor. It is the SOLE responsibility of the purchaser to ensure that all transactions conform to US and local Federal, State and Local Statutes, Codes, and Ordinances.Residents of Connecticut are prohibited from buying Body Armor unless the sale is face to face (or unless the buyer is a police officer, Police Department, or military). We cannot ship to residents of Connecticut who are not police or military.. FYI
-
Yes, Path... that is in reference to that weird law I alluded to about face to face sales only for non-gov't sales. They are not illiegal in CT.
****
In regard to shields, I recommend the Patriot 3 products, such as this, because of the versatility and relative affordability: http://www.patriot3online.com/2007_Minuteman_Brochure.pdf (http://www.patriot3online.com/2007_Minuteman_Brochure.pdf).
*****
Tom,
The performance of teh blanket is related to how you are using it and, as you alluded to, how or if it is "mounted". If you wrp the blanket around you, you are going to get thumped. If you drape it over a person or two huddled in the corner, you risk the edges getting "pushed" out of the way, but certain voids might absorb the motion that would cause the thumb. If the the blanke is mounted in a way to forum a vertical curtain or wall (as they are sometimes designed to be used in vehicles to increase protection during an ambush), you can avoid both penetration and thumb, if it is done properly.... the latter solution reduces the versatility of the blanket solution, however.
-RJP
-
Why do you feel this way cookie62? Threat of felons and badguys using them for no-good? Would it be okay is the honest..law-abbiding citizens used it in their home? Would it be okay if police have them and everyone else not? Would that be right or fair? Should we fear the police? Should the police fear the honest civilian? I have family that work in law enforcement..so I understand both sides.. I just wondered why the frowny..
Sorry, I did mean Illegal. Maybe I'm thinking of the "while committing a crime" part. But I could swear I have read that some of the laws proposed after the Hollywood shootout had passed. Sorry for the confusion. I'll try to do some more research and repost.
-
After more research the only laws I found are for felons and in commision of a crime. I did find 3 propased laws that were never passed. (California, NY, and Florida)
-
Yes, Path... that is in reference to that weird law I alluded to about face to face sales only for non-gov't sales. They are not illiegal in CT.
****
In regard to shields, I recommend the Patriot 3 products, such as this, because of the versatility and relative affordability: http://www.patriot3online.com/2007_Minuteman_Brochure.pdf (http://www.patriot3online.com/2007_Minuteman_Brochure.pdf).
*****
Tom,
The performance of teh blanket is related to how you are using it and, as you alluded to, how or if it is "mounted". If you wrp the blanket around you, you are going to get thumped. If you drape it over a person or two huddled in the corner, you risk the edges getting "pushed" out of the way, but certain voids might absorb the motion that would cause the thumb. If the the blanke is mounted in a way to forum a vertical curtain or wall (as they are sometimes designed to be used in vehicles to increase protection during an ambush), you can avoid both penetration and thumb, if it is done properly.... the latter solution reduces the versatility of the blanket solution, however.
-RJP
That's food for thought, When you go to the safe room have the members of the family who will not be participating in protection, (kids, wife depending on skill level ) hunker in a corner and pull the ballistic blanket around them being sure to tuck in and secure the edges. Even sitting on them should help. Perhaps prepare in advance a method of securely hanging the blanket such as installing grommets that can be placed over hooks in the wall, (make sure you hit studs when screwing in the hooks and don't trust small cup hooks, use the larger steel type available at the hardware store ) Perhaps they could also be hung on a wall that you might be shooting toward to lessen the chance of over penetration or a missed shot going astray. This might be a special consideration for apartment dwellers or those who live in closely built developments.
-
some years back I traded a rifle for body armor, its a full vest that you would wear over clothing protecting groin area. Something to be used in only extreme cases . Better to have and not need etc. etc.
-
Shower curtain ;D
-
Shower curtain ;D
If its around a cast iron tub, it may not be a bad idea at all.
-
If its around a cast iron tub, it may not be a bad idea at all.
i'd be really shocked if a bullet from a hand gun could make it thru a old cast iron tub. Crack it all up yes, make a very loud noise, but not pentrate. Many of them are in the 5-600 lb range... They often take 6 guys to get out of a bathroom. Many are ~ 1/2" on the sides.
-
i'd be really shocked if a bullet from a hand gun could make it thru a old cast iron tub. Crack it all up yes, make a very loud noise, but not pentrate. Many of them are in the 5-600 lb range... They often take 6 guys to get out of a bathroom. Many are ~ 1/2" on the sides.
I was thinking more for areas ABOVE the level of the iron, or to drape over the top. So on this one we are thinking alike :o
-
Don't put too much faith in cast iron tubs. True, they are better than plastic, but how do you break up an old tub to get it out? Hit it with sledge hammers. What's a bullet? A fast moving lightweight sledge hammer.
My guess (and that is all it is) would be that one or two shots in different places would cause spalling on the inside, especially the porcelain covering, and then the tub would fall apart. Anyone have any real-world experience dropping the vicious and cunning cast iron tub?
-
Had not thought of the spalling from the porcelain. But getting cut by flying chips is still better than getting shot. as to it breaking up, probably, but in that situation any hits on the tub would most likely be by accident, the BG would be focused on the threat he can see, YOU and will not be concerned with the tub, if he even notices it.
As for breaking up cast iron tubs, ARE YOU CRAZY !!! Do you have ANY idea what people pay for that kind of stuff ? $500 - $1000
Dude, You need to watch a few episodes of Antiques Roadshow !
-
Had not thought of the spalling from the porcelain. But getting cut by flying chips is still better than getting shot. as to it breaking up, probably, but in that situation any hits on the tub would most likely be by accident, the BG would be focused on the threat he can see, YOU and will not be concerned with the tub, if he even notices it.
As for breaking up cast iron tubs, ARE YOU CRAZY !!! Do you have ANY idea what people pay for that kind of stuff ? $500 - $1000
Dude, You need to watch a few episodes of Antiques Roadshow !
Yes, but do you notice they never ever pay you what they quote?
And when I tried to get rid of mine, I could not find anyone who was willing to give me more than $100 - and that is if I took it to them. That was then, this is now . . . .
-
you guys really don't want to know how much I've spent on older "claw foot" tubs... lets just say when all is said and done, a trip to wilson combat will be cheaper. ;D I've got 3 sitting in my back yard now waiting for homes... Just like old fixtures, unless they are really messed up I save them. A single handle for a fixture can start at $20( and go way, way up) from a slavage yard, if you can't find one and have to pull the stem and have a new end brazed on your looking at atleast 100 + the handle.
Having broken up tubs from the 60s its work, I mean work. unless its teh only way to get it out of the building you don't want to do it. Then again there is about 300 lb diffrence between those and the ones from the turn of the centure.
-
I just noticed you are in ND, I KNOW you would have got over $500 if you were here on the East Coast, These yuppies eat that sh!t up. some friends of mine redid an old farm back in 2000, those were the prices they were quoted to deliver an old Claw foot castiron tub, She finally found what she wanted for $650 but had to move it herself. (or her husbands self ;D )
-
I just noticed you are in ND, I KNOW you would have got over $500 if you were here on the East Coast, These yuppies eat that sh!t up. some friends of mine redid an old farm back in 2000, those were the prices they were quoted to deliver an old Claw foot castiron tub, She finally found what she wanted for $650 but had to move it herself. (or her husbands self ;D )
Made my bones in Chicago, as they say, had a 100+ year old Victorian in Evanston for almost 30 years. Tried restoring parts, spent beau coup hours at Salvage 1 in a really really great neighborhood in Chicago </sarcasm off>
-
Back on topic, please guys...... try to take the off topic stuff to PMs or an appropriate area in the future guys or at least also include pertinent info in your posts.
Thanks.
-RJP
-
Have you ever had any rounds go off while reloading?
Not yet Thank God ;D