The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: TxIronWolf on January 11, 2009, 09:55:49 PM
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I am one who does not buy into hype and find out as much as I can about a product before I buy it. I carry a 1911 Ulta Compact and have been looking into gett a set, but before I spend $330 on a set of grips I want to know everything I can about them. What are the good points and bad point of a laser sight on a CCW Personal Defense Weapon. I thank everyone for thier time and help now.
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I've never heard anything bad about them. I listen to the podcasts and they're one of the advertisers, so I don't know if that's the whole story. Being a visible light laser, it will show you were the gun is aimed and it will also show the bad guy. This works well when the dot's on him, but if you're moving threw an area with your gun drawn, you might give away your position if it would be otherwise unrevealed. But for CCW purposes, when the gun is only drawn after the threat has revealed itself first, then you don't really have an issue.
If you think about it, so many shooting instructors will tell you to pay attention to your front sight to shoot accurately. However, during a life or death struggle, you will be looking at the threat by programming, and your front sight won't be important. The laser dot on the target acts like an extented front sight and takes advantage of your threat-orienented focus.
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I have not used one myself but, from what friends have told me, BAD POINT, uses batteries, batteries have limited lifespan, GOOD POINT, must robberies take place at close range and a laser site allows you to get a site when you have just been knocked on your a$$, or are in some other akward position that does not allow conventional siting. Also, using a laser site removes the site radius from the accuracy equation, your short barreled pistol will be just as accurate as one with a much longer distance between front and rear sites.
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I am a proponent of laser sights.
As stated above, it allows you to put your front sight on the target itself.
I have read the statement about defensive shooting: "If you have a good shooting stance, you are not moving enough and not using cover effectively".
Any time you cannot have a good two handed stance, the laser will give you a tremendous advantage. Shooting around a barrier...like a doorway or corner in your home...it will allow you to get on target without bringing the weapon to eye level. It provides the same advantage from any non-standard shooting position: prone, on your back, across your body, turned looking over your shoulder behind you.
True, they do use batteries which can fail but you are no worse off with a failed laser than you would be with no laser and if you maintain them, they should be ready when you need them.
You still need to practice standard shooting techniques without the laser to maintain your trigger control skills and body indexing, but you will find adding the laser to your training session will be a big assist.
Your first impression will be that using a laser makes you a crumby shot. That dot will be jiggling all over the place. Of course it has not made your hold go to crap, it simply is showing you the facts...movement that you could not perceive with your normal sight picture. I do believe you could take an accurate pulse by watching the movement of the laser dot on target....
Dry practice with the laser is embarrassingly revealing but allows you to work on better control.
Sight your laser so it's point of impact is the same as the one you choose for your normal sight allignment. Some laser sights are not adjustable (LaserMax internal laser in a Glock, for example) but they are accurate enough for defense work as is.
Ideally, you would want a switch that would automatically turn on the laser when your trigger finger contacts the trigger, but I don't think that will be practically available. I do think there is a model that senses the finger inside the trigger guard to turn it on and off. You don't want it on until you are on target and your finger is on the trigger so a switch near or under your trigger finger extended before placement on the trigger would be good. I avoid any off hand switch to turn the laser on because I don't thing a two handed grip is likely in a defense scenario.
In any situation where "point shooting" is called for, the laser makes it as close to fast aimed fire as you will get.
I used to practice "fast draw" with a Ruger Blackhawk with wax bullets in special cases using a powerful primer for propellant and a shirt on a coat hanger for "hip shots". You could see where the wax bullets hit to check accuracy. With the laser, you can see where it is when the shot would have gone off.
I have an internal LaserMAX installed in my Glock 21 and 23 and intend to install one in my 21SF.
I am putting together a tactical 870 and intend to install a laser sight on it, a Viridian is under consideration. Their green laser is easier to spot in all light conditions, particularly brighter light, compared to a red laser and they have models with a laser and a strobing light. (they have a green laser and light combo that will mount on a pistol rail, but I prefer not to have a light mounted on a handgun).
Take care.
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Hmm, let's see:
1. CT uses a grip-mounted switch. This beats any other activation method.
2. Agree on the "awkward position/aim" advantage. This is especially helpful with snubby revolvers.
3. Can also be useful as a training tool. Use during dry fire to see if you're pulling the shot.
However: always be mindful of falling into the trap of thinking hardware is a substitute for experience. $300 can buy 1000 rounds of .45 ammo. Use that ammo properly for training and you'll probably become a better shot with any CCW weapon than you would with just the Kimber and CT w/o any training at all.
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Having just installed our first laser on my wife's 686, I'm convinced that for personal protection or home protection it's the best way to go.
I can hold that pistol near my hip and keep the laser on a doorknob 20' away while I can see the ENTIRE ROOM...I'm not looking down my barrel at one man's center mass. It allows you much greater scene awareness and the ability to fire from virtually any position.
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I've gone back and forth when it comes lasesr on guns for sd.
I think they are a very good training tool as they give the shooter instant feed back on thier trigger control.
The reason why I don't like them is this guy named Murphy( we really need to find that bastard and whip his butt) If your so use to using them, what happends when they fail? yes I know they don't fail often, but if your luck is anything like mine...
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I've gone back and forth when it comes lasesr on guns for sd.
I think they are a very good training tool as they give the shooter instant feed back on thier trigger control.
The reason why I don't like them is this guy named Murphy( we really need to find that bastard and whip his butt) If your so use to using them, what happends when they fail? yes I know they don't fail often, but if your luck is anything like mine...
It's still important to use your regular sights when training. The laser gives you more options, which is always helpful.
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Thats true it does give you another option, but it is very hard to look at the sites when you are fixed on the dot.( trust me.)
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I bought a set of CT LaserGrips the week they became available and I have had them on my self-defense gun ever since. I believe a self-defense gun isn't complete without them. That's why I agreed to appear on CT's training video (with Todd Jarrett, Ken Hackathorn, Wes Doss and Julie Goloski) and waved any fee. Lasers are superb for:
1) "Broken"positions
2) Plaster. dust, glass, smoke in the air
3) Positions when you are under fire and would prefer not to even let a pinkie be exposed
4) There is a teeny tiny chance that the red dot will make the miscreant decide to reform, join the clergy and lobby for whirled peas
They don't replace practicing with sights, but basically give you an additional option. My bedside Sig 226 has LaserGrips, night sights and a SureFire X300...belt and suspenders. I will use ANY AND ALL tricks to win, because my butt is on the line. Use every advantage!
Michael B
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Thank you all this has given me some good insight. I do agree whole heartedly Robin that that much spent on ammo would be Very Helpful, but I feel from what I have read here and other places that this product would provide just as much help as that much range time. I will problly find some where that I can get my hand s on a set and really look them over. Do the whole touch., see, smell thing with them. Once more Thanks to All of you.
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Do any of the ranges in your area rent guns with them ? the one I go to has a couple but since I have not been in the market, I haven't bothered.
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Thats true it does give you another option, but it is very hard to look at the sites when you are fixed on the dot.( trust me.)
Yeah, but if there is a dot there to focus on, then the laser must be working, right? :)
I find that using the laser instead of the sights actually slows me down, as I try to wrangle that jumping dot instead of just trusting the sights. And on a 3 dimensional target and inside a place with reflective surfaces, that dot can end up in odd places, different from where you are actually aiming. They worked WONDERFULLY on a S&W 642 snubby (which has minimal sights) though.
Another thing to bear in mind is that most lasers have a significant amount of hold over/under/lateral deviation as they are often displaced from the line of the barrel. Those laser/light combos are the worst as the laser is on the bottom of the light, so it can be a few inches below the level of the barrel. CTs are a bit better, though if you tune them to get POI/POA at a certain range, you will hit to the left or right at other ranges. Probably not a big deal at most defensive ranges and when aiming COM, but important to keep in mind when practicing and that laser dot doesn't seem to agree with your sight picture and where the bullets actually land (if you are trying for bullseye shooting accuracy)
Another thing to bear in mind is that unlike the movies, a bad guy may not necessarily know that a laser is illuminating him (hollywood folks always seem to know when to look down to their chest) and that a dot on a wall gives very little info about there the source is unless there is a lot of smoke/dust in the air to highlight the beam. Having the laser on all the time isn't the death sentence some think it is.
Finally, I have a real hard time training with a laser at a range in daylight. The dot is weak and hard to see. But I feel that if you have a laser then you MUST train with it to get proficient, so plan on some dawn/dusk or overcast training days if you don't have access to an indoor/night shooting facility.
I wish some of the major competitions would create a laser class. Nothing would tweak the designs and popularize the device more than competition, IMHO. I don't know how you could do it technically, but a laser "ring" projecting from around the muzzle, activated by trigger pressure, would be pretty cool and would solve some of the issues I have with lasers.
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Jason,
Some of your points are really good ones. I've almost always seen the laser slow people down, not speed them up. it also can cause a significant change in shooting position that is inconsistent with intuitive and sighted fire when people purposely get used to holding the firearm below their line of sight to make seeing the dot easier.
Have you seen the new rear sight laser that I wrote about in the TBD Blog? It may solve some of the deviation issues.
-RJP
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I think there is some hesitation for people to fire a shot if they do not see the dot. If the batteries died, laser fails, you manage to block it somehow. Pros and cons to almost anything we use. I like them for training but have not attached one for SD yet.
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Probably the best thing you can do to educate yourself on this topic is to contact CT and request a copy of the DVD "Shots in the Dark." In my previous life, I shot, edited, and produced all of Paladin Press' videos. I personally shot and edited "Shots in the Dark," working closely with Clyde Caceres (then with CT) on that project. Both Clyde and I did not want the video to degenerate into a CT infomercial, so we focused on a critical examination of the pros and cons of the laser in general. The video was a commercial product for a number of years before CT bought the rights to it to offer it as an informational piece. Since I was personally involved in it, I know it well and feel it examines the issue objectively.
In my work with both Col. Rex Applegate and Jim Cirillo, I came to appreciate the laser for the same basic reason, even though their respective approaches were very different. The Colonel believed that it was ideal because it put the dot on the threat, which is where instinct will typically force you to look. In fact, one of the effects of SNS activation under life-threatening stress is loss (or at least degredation of near-vision acuity. In simple terms, you can't see things at close range--like the sights on your gun. As most folks get older, this happens even without stress--our eyes just change.
Although Cirillo was definitely a sighted-fire guy, he was also open minded enough to explore other forms of aimed fire and what he called "alternative sighting methods." One of Jim's "alternative" shooting positions was what he called the "Geometric Point" or "Nose Point." It's basically a shortened isosceles with the elbows tight against the sides. This positions the gun at chest level right on your body's centerline. If you simply square your shoulders with the target, you get COM hits. Add a laser to it, and you've got a good close-range shooting platform that allows a wide field of vision.
My personal approach to lasers (I have them on several of my guns) is to tune the placement of the dot so it rides right on top of my front sight when I have a proper sight picture. In this way, rather than looking over the sights to see the dot (as Rob mentioned, a common problem), the same exact shooting position makes both the sights and the dot visible. If the battery goes out and the dot disappears, there's no major transition to the sights.
I hope this helps.
Stay safe,
Mike
P.S. From a training perspective, you may want to check out the article I did for SWAT a few months ago on using lasers for training.
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My experience with lasers is only a month long, but I think the type of weapon comes into play as well. I go to the range every week with a Colt Commander .45, Colt Mustang .380 and a recently purchased Kel-Tek P3-AT. The Kel-Tek is my primary carry weapon. I am used to the “front sight” on the Colts, but quite frankly there is not a whole lot of sight picture on the Kel-Tek. The disadvantage of carrying family heirlooms (my father’s weapons with letters from the Colt Historian) in the event something does go wrong means I may never get them back from the authorities. On top of that I am a skinny guy and concealing the .45 is a problem for me. OTOH, I will not hesitate to deploy them if that is my only option.
As Mike Janich said: “My personal approach to lasers (I have them on several of my guns) is to tune the placement of the dot so it rides right on top of my front sight when I have a proper sight picture. In this way, rather than looking over the sights to see the dot (as Rob mentioned, a common problem), the same exact shooting position makes both the sights and the dot visible.” works. Good advise in my opinion!
I have heard the old “well the batteries may die” argument. I discount it. You change the batteries on smoke detectors twice in a year; do the same for your laser! Smoke detectors and firearms are both life saving devices in my book! If laser failure means that much to you, you have a problem in your training. I routinely cover the beam with a piece of masking tape to reinforce traditional shooting skills.
I am not a corporate shill, but Crimson Trace makes a great product and the customer service is a pleasant, refreshing surprise. My degrees are in electrical/electronic engineering and I can say that they make an excellent product IMHO.
My two cents!
Kelly
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When you change your laser and smoke detector batteries take your fire extinguishers, turn them upside down and give them a good shaking to prevent the dry chemical from caking. I know it's off topic but seemed like an appropriate place for a reminder of something most folks overlook.
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First let me say I'm a lefty. I have an XD9 Service that is my carry gun. I have been on the CT forum and they say I have to keep my thumps lower, but when I do my grip does not feel right. I have tried the display model they had in my local gun store and I can't seem to get my thumps out of the way. Any suggestions?
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For someone like myself, who has had screwed up eyesight since birth, CT is a godsend. I am not able to see handgun sights clearly without special glasses, and I cannot function normally while wearing those glasses. My distance (Normal wear) lenses are useless with handgun sights. I have always compensated for this by essentially a form of point shooting. My guns have big red inserts in the front sights. But accuracy suffers, untill I installed my first laser.
My first laser was a lasermax in a G30. Worked well for what it is but I really prefer the 1911. I now have CT grips on my 1911's and would not consider any other arrangement. In my case since I always wear distance glasses concentrating on the dot is more natural for me. Even in bright summertime daylight I can make out and acquire the dot at 15 yards.
In low light without my prescription the dot is easy to see on the target.
And I have yet to have a battery go dead. Even the lasermax is still on it's original battery installed in 1998. It is starting to get a bit weak :)
And if the battery fails the gun still works.
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First let me say I'm a lefty. I have an XD9 Service that is my carry gun. I have been on the CT forum and they say I have to keep my thumps lower, but when I do my grip does not feel right. I have tried the display model they had in my local gun store and I can't seem to get my thumps out of the way. Any suggestions?
In a two-handed lefty grip, I find the primary problem is my right thumb. Although I prefer to have the thumbs "stacked" with the support thumb on the frame, firing lefty I have to fold my thumb down completely to keep from blocking the laser. The left thumb rides alongside the laser "bump."
You might also consider a rail-mounted laser like the LaserLyte. Rob gave me one of these recently and it works pretty well. Activation of it is less intuitive than the CT models, but isn't difficult.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Thanks Mike I will check out Laserlyte.
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I previously posted this shortly after Jim Cirillo's passing, but the subject is lasers;
I met Jim at the indoor range in Panama City, Florida. He was testing lazer grips, and told me, "I have come to the conclusion that anyone without a laser who becomes involved in a low light shooting is at a distinct disadvantage."
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About a year ago, while walking my dog, another large aggressive dog charged me and my dog. As it charged, I drew both a can of PUNCH II (OC Spray) and my Glock 19. Since I didn't want to shoot the dog, I used the PUNCH II and managed to deter the dog that way. It lunged and darted around me and my dog so FAST that sighted fire would be too slow and its vitals were to small to hit with a sloppy fast unsighted shot. Also, because it not only moved fast but darted around me, it meant that (no faster or better at it than I am) I couldn't use the normal point-shooting body alignment tools of extending toward the target in the eye-muzzle-target line. In Combat Focus terms, this situation put too much demand on my balance of speed and precision. I couldn't be precise enough at the speed of a lunging aggressive dog. If I had carried one of my Crimson Trace equipped pistols that day, I think it would have worked better (although, I'm still glad that the OC worked instead).
I keep CTC lasers on most of my handguns, now. I sight them in so that they put the dot floating on top of my front sight blade when I'm in a normal firing stance.
I seem to see three sets of problems with lasers on most people's guns:
- They never learned to shoot well in the first place and they expect the laser to take over the need for sighting entirely (and usually have such poor trigger control that they jerk the shot 2-4 feet low when the dot appears on target)
- They can shoot pretty well without the laser but they haven't spent time with their laser gun and get bedazzled by the dot.
- They learn to shoot well with the laser but become dependent upon it and are lost when things go wrong and it doesn't work.