The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: luvmy45 on January 19, 2009, 11:42:33 PM
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I am serious when I ask this question,
In reading the NRA rags on citizens that used their weapons in self defense, and in reading about situations that CCW holders use their weapons, I can't remember reading of an encounter where an armed citizen that was a CCW holder, had to do a fast draw and shoot.
To those instructors and defense trainers, It seems that all the training advertises that you will have the ability to fast draw your gun and shoot in 1 to 2 seconds. When do would that be needed?
If we analyzed say 100 shooting incidents where a CCW holds had to use his/her weapon, how many times was the fast draw needed?
Thanks,
Brian
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Not what I expected when I read the title, which really stinks because I had several Smartdonkey answers all ready :(
But seems like a valid question, if they came at you from an alley or doorway from close range and wanted to harm YOU, you would surely need to draw quick.So it would probably be a good skill for some one with a protection order, but it would seem that in a robbery type situation it would be less important, as the BG would be giving you the "Give me your stuff or I'm gonna" routine, and his first assumption when you start to reach will be that you are complying, after all, HE"S got a knife, gun, club, whatever, and assumes HE is the aggressive person in the equation. In this case fast draw may add to the shock value but since he will PROBABLY (not always !) run away , it's not as important. Of course if you need a gun you need it in your hand, the quicker you can do this the better, but missing fast never won a fight.
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If you don't find many, it could be because not enough folks are proficient at a fast draw and it was recorded as a murder rather than a self defense shooting
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If you don't find many, it could be because not enough folks are proficient at a fast draw and it was recorded as a murder rather than a self defense shooting
So if it does happen... shouldn't there be more stories about it? Because of all the CCW stories about using a gun to defend yourself, this situation is the one that would attract the media coverage the most. Wouldn't it?
So the lack of coverage of such incidents leads me to believe that all the practice we do honing our skills at fast drawing and shooting... are pretty much worthless in the world of self defense.
Is that a correct assumption? If not, why not? If so, expand on why we practice it so much and it is taught so much at training schools?
Brian
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My $0.02.
See if you can MOVE, draw and fire and hit the A zone on an IPSC target or 0 points down on an IDPA target from concealment in 1.5 seconds. Fast but no hit in the proper area is a failure. Hits are more important than speed. You must move off the line of attack, a couple of steps mean a lot better chance of survival. If you can do that everytime, add a second and third shot. Can you do it in both directions? Can you do it at angles?
The big thing is not to be surprised in an attack. If your aware of what might happen you can disengage or at best get distance.
Distance = time to react. Distance gives you the advantage if you can make the shot and the bad guy can't.
I would think that most folks who end up winning these fights had an idea that trouble was coming their way and were preparing for the fight. I doubt fast draw ever really wins these types of encounters.
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My $0.02.
See if you can MOVE, draw and fire and hit the A zone on an IPSC target or 0 points down on an IDPA target from concealment in 1.5 seconds. Fast but no hit in the proper area is a failure. Hits are more important than speed. You must move off the line of attack, a couple of steps mean a lot better chance of survival. If you can do that everytime, add a second and third shot. Can you do it in both directions? Can you do it at angles?
The big thing is not to be surprised in an attack. If your aware of what might happen you can disengage or at best get distance.
Distance = time to react. Distance gives you the advantage if you can make the shot and the bad guy can't.
I would think that most folks who end up winning these fights had an idea that trouble was coming their way and were preparing for the fight. I doubt fast draw ever really wins these types of encounters.
According to the court transcripts that someone linked to an earlier thread that is exactly what happened at the OK corral, Wyatt Earp had his pistol in his coat pocket, how fast is that. But a faster reaction time has to be better than a slower one, even if you are trying to run from a situation.
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"According to the court transcripts that someone linked to an earlier thread that is exactly what happened at the OK corral, Wyatt Earp had his pistol in his coat pocket, how fast is that. But a faster reaction time has to be better than a slower one, even if you are trying to run from a situation"
I agree with that.
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1.5 seconds, while moving, from concealment is FAST. The fastest I can draw reliably (A-Zone hit, 7 yards) is right at 1.0-1.2 seconds, and that's from a Ghost holster (USPSA rig), no concealment. We drill regularly on draws, focusing on getting good hits. But like I said, that's under the best possible circumstances.
If you can draw and shoot in 1-2 seconds in any circumstance, that's fast. Most people are surprised at how long it takes to draw and fire accurately when you're using a shot timer, even when you know that it's coming. Add surprise, reaction time, disorientation, adrenaline, etc., and you're going to have to rely on ingrained instinct. 1-2 seconds? Hmmm...
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So if it does happen... shouldn't there be more stories about it? Because of all the CCW stories about using a gun to defend yourself, this situation is the one that would attract the media coverage the most. Wouldn't it?
So the lack of coverage of such incidents leads me to believe that all the practice we do honing our skills at fast drawing and shooting... are pretty much worthless in the world of self defense.
Is that a correct assumption? If not, why not? If so, expand on why we practice it so much and it is taught so much at training schools?
Bri
Without knowing what percentage of CCW holders are thus trained, you cannot assume that lack of news reports about that training being used means that it is not necessary.
It is more likely that the percentage of trainees is low and the odds of one of them being attacked is small. The would mean that those who are attacked when the training would help have not had the training.....and the result is a murder rather than a self defense report.
As another example. If you looked for news stories about how a CCW holder protected themselves a week after CCW became legal in an area, you might find no such stories. But that would not indicate getting a CCW is not worth the time, jus that the small number of CCW holders have not been attacked yet.
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This is a subject close to my heart because it is one I encountered in the Real World. First let me say as an instructor I had been drifting away from the necessity of a fast draw in civilian defensive situations for the same reasons the original poster noted...a analysis of armed citizen shootings did not seem to support the time spent in perfecting a smooth, fast draw from concealment.
A couple of years back — and I've written about this before on this forum, so I won't go into vast detail — I walked into my local small town supermarket and a miscreant in biker drag who told me to give him all my money. As he stood up from the floor, his right hand went to the left side of his partially zipped leather jacket. My right hand went to the left side of my partially unzipped leather jacket, and the short story is I won. Before his hand was fully in his jacket he got to hear the safety of my Colt Mustang .380 coming off and look at the little mousegun barrel point at the roof of his mouth. He slooooooowly locked his hands behind his head and asked me a very pertinent question: "What do I have to do to keep on living?"
This taught me a valuable lesson, as articulated by Tom Bogan...the stats don't tell us everything. I went to the local police, but I filed no report. That incident is nowhere in any stat database.
I now believe (and teach, on those rare times when I get to teach) that a smooth draw — remember, smooth is fast — is a fundamental survival skill. It's sort of like how a ballet dancer or a martial artist has an absolute understanding of his or her position in space and what the next move is...we need to be sensitive to the gun and the next move, even if we carry it day in and day out. That means devoted part of our precious time to understanding and mastering the draw.
Michael B
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+1 MB , and if you do practice you may as well be proficient in the draw. 1/4 hip ,,1/2 hip etc.
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Quite the experience. My only self-defense experience afforded me the time to see the trouble coming, and prepare for it - I had my gun in hand by the time the scenario materialized, in spite of my best efforts to not be in that position. Before the BG could do whatever he had planned, I had convinced him it was a bad idea. Again, no police, no statistics. In my case, awareness of the situation gave me time, and a draw was moot.
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Great question. Here are my thoughts:
1) Many athletes overtrain their skills to ensure that, when it really counts, they can do it right. Achieving a very fast draw in training makes it more likely that a smooth, reasonably quick draw will be achievable on the street.
2) Challenging yourself in training induces stress and helps you validate your skills under that stress. It's not so much the speed you're trying to achieve but the ability to get the job done under the stress that the speed imposes.
3) The statistics we do have indicate that most firearms incidents ("gunfight" is not an appropriate term) are over in a matter of seconds and only involve a few rounds. If those are the parameters, a fast draw seems appropriate if you want to ensure that you can "get in the game."
Food for thought...
Stay safe,
Mike
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Michael and Michael,
Thank you for those well thought responses to my question.
That helps me think in more positive terms about the fast draw, and the ability to do it.
Thanks again,
Brian
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Got me rethinking it.
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Several years back I had an incident were a guy put a gun to my head as I was getting out of my car while two of his buddies tried to snatch my wife, I figured it was going to end bad fast any way so I went for my gun. I fired just as the muzzle clear the holster and hit him in the stomach, he was very close and he went down fast and the other guys ran back to the car. So I believe there is a reason for speed but it should be reserved for times when they on top of you and your chances of missing are low. Turns out they followed us home from the grocery store, they were on the security camera tapes that the police recovered.
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I think something that needs to be addressed in this thread is your choice of holster, and where you carry it, and how that aids you in a "fast draw".
I carry strong-side, right behind my kidney in a very high percent of the time in an Askins style holster. I carry my primary in this fashion. I often, when using my mobility scooter, carry crossdraw in an IWB holster. The crossdraw pistol is actually a backup to my primary. I carry a Glock 99.999999999999999% of the time. Usually a G21 strong side, and a G30 cross draw with the spare mags for the 21 weak side. My mags are always in the same place, and will fit either pistol. I try to carry the smaller version of my primary...whether it is the G26 backing up the G19, or the 23 backing up the 22.
Carry your reloads in the same place all the time. I carry spare magazines for three reasons...in order of importance to me. The magazine is the weakest link in your gun. A great gun is of no value if the magazine fails. You just might need more ammo fast!. The weight of the two spares balances the weight of the gun on my other hip, and as a long time gun carrier...it saves my back!
I have acheived a pretty smooth and rapid presentation from the crossdraw position. As I have carried strong side for 20 years now...I am VERY proficient in getting that weapon into play. I still practice both here at my home range.
Use a quality holster. Use a quality belt made for carrying a gun. This is no place for a $9.00 nylon gun show special to be used as a tool carrier for the tool you MAY need to save your life. You will never become smooth, fast, or proficient with crappy gear. Carry in the same place. My hand goes to my stong side without even thinking. It goes cross draw if I am in my wheelchair or scooter. Muscle memory will take over when fine motor skills have gone out the window. You fight like you train, and poor training will translate into poor fighting.
I believe that a rapid presentation, while not always neccessary, is a skill that is best to have and not need, than to need and not have. Clint Smith said something to the effect that "The time to learn new skills is not in the middle of a fight."