The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: dsawi52695 on January 22, 2009, 10:01:34 PM
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Hi Everyone:
I do not have a CCW Permit yet. I expect to be relocating to Edinboro PA in the next few months or so. I was wondering if someone could explain the process of getting a CCW Permit in Erie County PA. Is it a long drawn out process?
I am disabled and use a motorized wheelchair to get around. I would like to get a pistol for Conceal Carry and Home Defense.
Any and all ideas would be appreciated. I am sure there will be several different opinions.
Thank you for your time, consideration, and cooperation. I hope to hear from you soon,
David
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Do you have the hand strenght/dexterity to cycle a pistol?
The reason why I ask, is if you don't, you may want to look into a revolver.
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Like TAB indicates your specific impairments may limit your choices, for example, as TAB stated limited hand strength might rule out a semi auto, an inability to handle recoil might limit your choices of caliber. You would be best off to find a local gun store that rents guns, or a shooter who will let you try a variety of them, These folks will all have advice for you, listen to what they have to tell you then pick the fire arm you are the most comfortable shooting, If that's a .45 acp, or .357 Magnum fine, but remember that a .22 that you can use and will have with you AT ALL TIMES is more effective for your defense than a larger, more effective caliber that you are afraid to shoot because it inflicts pain on you.
Also, get professional training, NRA offers SD classes,as do many Police dept.s. Call for details as some offer loaner guns (another chance to try different stuff) many require you to use your own weapon.
As to requirements for a CCW in your state, I can't help you but I'm sure some one else will be able to post it for you.
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MB has stated often - check with a local lawyer before doing anything, find out the laws, the "willingness" of the local police to support or hinder you.
Looks like PA is a "may" issue state, not a shall issue state. I found this on the PA State Police web site at http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/cwp/browse.asp?a=15&bc=0&c=70426 (http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/cwp/browse.asp?a=15&bc=0&c=70426):
"The sheriff has 45 days to conduct an investigation to determine an individual's eligibility to be issued a license. Included in the investigation is a background check conducted on the individual through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) to determine if the records indicate the individual is prohibited by law. In accordance with 18 PA C.S. §6109, a sheriff may deny an individual the right to a License to Carry Firearms if there is reason to believe that the character and reputation of the individual are such that they would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
If the PICS check is approved and the subject is of good character, the sheriff may (Pathfinder: emphasis mine) issue a License to Carry Firearms. The issuance of a License to Carry Firearms allows individuals to carry a firearm concealed on or about their person, or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth. The license is valid for a period of five (5) years unless sooner revoked."
Good luck.
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Hi Everyone:
I do not have a CCW Permit yet. I expect to be relocating to Edinboro PA in the next few months or so. I was wondering if someone could explain the process of getting a CCW Permit in Erie County PA. Is it a long drawn out process?
iI am disabled and use a motorized wheelchair to get around. I would like to get a pistol for Conceal Carry and Home Defense.
Any and all ideas would be appreciated. I am sure there will be several different opinions.
Thank you for your time, consideration, and cooperation. I hope to hear from you soon,
When I lived in Erie (the city, not the county), it was just a matter of filling out the form, dropping it off at the courthouse, and then waiting for it to come in the mail (I think it was about a month or so).
That was about ten years ago, so it may have changed, but PA in general is a pretty easy state to get a CCW in. (Philly is much more hassle, just because you had to wait in the city office for it, but still pretty easy).
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David,
The fact that you are in a wheelchair does not have any automatic effect on the advice I normally give out in regard to selecting a defensive firearm:
1. Find a gun you can shoot well. If you can get to a range with several to rent/loan or go with a friend with a varied selction, that is best. I suggest starting with double action revolvers (per the posts above) or a DOA or Striker fired semi auto.
2. Make sure that the model is one that you can carry comfortably and conveniently. Some students I have had in wheelchairs have found this to almost be a non-issue, as the weight of the gun is carried by the chair and the size is hidden by the same.
3. Choose the caliber of the model that you can shoot an will carry based on the your choice of compromises between capacity, recoil and downrange energy.
-RJP
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Rob is right on the money..... I think in your case the biggest factor is going to be the means by which you carry concealed..... you need to really do some thinking about how exactly you are going to be doing that before you make your decision...... try to find out from others in your situation how they go about concealed carry and any advice that they have for you.
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David,
Centre (sp) County PA. allows out of state residents to apply for their CCW by mail. I got mine in Erie in person the first time but renewed by mail after getting the application off the computer. Erie takes your picture whereas Centre doesn't require it. The process in Erie only took about 1 1/2 hours if that. As a PA. resident it should be easy. I see no reason why you should have any problem.
Hope this helps.
Richard
PS: FWIW Florida and New Hampshire non-resident permits are easy to get also. I printed the NH application off the internet and sent for Fla. NH is $15 unless they raised it and Fla is $125 UTRI. Having these allows CC in many additional states if you travel
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David,
The process was pretty painless back in 2000 for a PA CCW. The sheriff has to show cause why he didn't issue a permit and if you haven't been the center of attention of your local police department on occasion you should be good to go.
Try and find a place that teaches a basic class on the use of deadly force in PA. The same folks may offer a basic concealed carry class. PA does not mandate training but you would be well served to learn the law if you are going to carry.
Good luck and try not to freeze solid in Edinboro. That's one cold place.
Ratcatcher 55
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Hi Everyome:
All of the responses that I have received are greatly appreciated, thank you. My weapon of chioce would probably be the Ruger SP101 chambered in .327 Federal. If not that particular weapon, something along those lines. unless someone here tells me different.
Thank you again for your time, consideration, and cooperation. I hope to hear from you soon,
David
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That will get the job done..... buy some speed loaders too
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Charter Arms also has their "Patriot" in .327 . While I prefer Ruger for revolvers the Charter may be less expensive.
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MB has stated often - check with a local lawyer before doing anything, find out the laws, the "willingness" of the local police to support or hinder you.
Looks like PA is a "may" issue state, not a shall issue state. I found this on the PA State Police web site at http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/cwp/browse.asp?a=15&bc=0&c=70426 (http://www.psp.state.pa.us/psp/cwp/browse.asp?a=15&bc=0&c=70426):
"The sheriff has 45 days to conduct an investigation to determine an individual's eligibility to be issued a license. Included in the investigation is a background check conducted on the individual through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) to determine if the records indicate the individual is prohibited by law. In accordance with 18 PA C.S. §6109, a sheriff may deny an individual the right to a License to Carry Firearms if there is reason to believe that the character and reputation of the individual are such that they would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
If the PICS check is approved and the subject is of good character, the sheriff may (Pathfinder: emphasis mine) issue a License to Carry Firearms. The issuance of a License to Carry Firearms allows individuals to carry a firearm concealed on or about their person, or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth. The license is valid for a period of five (5) years unless sooner revoked."
Good luck.
We are a shall issue state. Here's a good summary from the Pennsylvania Firearms Owner's Association:
The process for obtaining an LTCF in Pennsylvania is excellent due to the fact that the process is very thorough in making sure that permits are not granted to people that may be irresponsible or pose a danger to others (minors, convicted felons, domestic abusers, etc.) while making it very simple for trustworthy, law-abiding people to obtain one quickly and cheaply.
Pennsylvania LTCF's are available to both residents and non-residents and are valid for 5 years. For residents, the applications are handled by their county sheriff's office, with the exception of Philadelphia where they are handled by the Gun Permits & Tracking Unit of the Philadelphia Police Department. It should be noted that permits issued by one county must be honored by all counties including Philadelphia regardless of rumors to the contrary.
The actual application process itself is very simple and consists of acquiring an application, and a passport-sized photo, filling it out, paying the fee (which can vary from county to county) and submitting it. In some counties (such as Philadelphia) the application must be submitted in person and they may do a quick and basic interview. Once the application is received the entity responsible for handling it will do a background check on you and generally verify who you are. They may contact the references you have provided on the application although many times it will not be necessary. Pennsylvania is a "shall-issue" state in regards to LTCF's, meaning the entity processing your application is required to approve it unless they can prove you are disqualified based on the law. This is very important to prevent localities from simply denying people based on political, or prejudicial biases. Additionally by state law the application must be approved or denied in 45 days (although some offices will use "business days"). Again, this is done to prevent localities from claiming they issue permits, but never actually processing them for political or prejudicial reasons.
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Hi Everyome:
Given the situation, which weapon would be a better choice? The Ruger SP101 chambered in .327 Federal or the Taurus 4410 "The Judge. (Pros and cons of both please) If not these particular weapons. Which would be best, and why?
Thank you again for your time, consideration, and cooperation. I hope to hear from you soon,
David
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While I'm no fan of the Judge, the 410 buckshot loads would give less chance of over penetrating and hitting some one/ something, you did not intend while giving you the ability to also fire .45 Colt which will serve as well as any other hand gun caliber on the market, however, the .327 will be easier to control allowing for faster follow up shots. .327 Ammo is still in RELITIVELY limited supply, but this will likely change as more pistols are chambered for it and demand increases.
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David,
Having spent some time in a wheelchair, I too had to grapple with the CCW problem while confined. I actually carried several different ways from in the breast pocket of a pair of overalls (Junior Samples anyone?) to attaching an Uncle Mikes Kydex holster to the inside arm of the wheelchair (so the gun was concealed between me and the chair).
I think the .327 has a lot of promise but I agree with what Tom said about ammo selection, which is why I would probably go with the Ruger. But I'd probably go with .357 so I could use .38 specials for better ammo selection.
Just my two dull pennies on the subject.
8)
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Agree.... .327 is probably a deal breaker for the next 1-2 years because of regards to ammo (maybe forever if it does not catch on). I would go with .357 or .38 +p revolver
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You might look at a good knife or two and an impact weapon plus training with both.
Richard
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You might look at a good knife or two and an impact weapon plus training with both.
Richard
I have never been movement impaired, so I have to ask is that a practical avenue for someone confined to a wheel chair ?
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I would not get the 327. even if its every thing its hiped up to be( nothing ever is) I would still rather have a 357 mag or 38+p for two reasons:
1 ammo is going to be alot cheaper/ easier to find. Now and in the future
2 its has proven to be an effective tool.
As far as the judge, I don't think its a good choice for you do to you lack of mobilty. 410 out of a short barrel is not exactly a man stoper. Its great for when you want some one to stop so you can run away( great anti car jacking weapon.) You can't run away.
The 45 colt on the other hands is a very powerful round, there are better platforms for 45 colt then the judge.
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I use a wheelchair due to a car accident that left me paralyzed from the chest down. I have a CCW and I carry a 9mm springfield xd in my back pack. This makes it a bit slower for me to draw if I had to - but if you hang around on this site long enough - you will learn that your best defense is situation awareness.
I don't like the revolver as a carry weapon b/c you usually have a harder trigger pull. Plus your saying your wanting a small gun with a lot of oomph. Have you shot that gun before? Are you able to shoot that gun with accuracy? You don't want to pull the trigger and hit the wrong person.
I went to gun range, got a lot of cool advice from people here and finally chose to carry the 9mm xd. I chose the xd because of the safety features the gun has. Also you can tell on visual inspection if that gun has a shell in the chamber, if the gun is cocked and ready to fire. You can't tell with a revolver or most 1911's & glocks. That is why your always supposed to treat a gun as if it's loaded. But if everyone did that - there would be a lot less accidental shootings now wouldn't there??
I still intend to get a 357 for personal protection at the house. My point is to do your best to learn about guns. Shoot often. Ask lots of questions. As long as your cool - people will love to tell you what they think and help you find what fits you best. I also got a .22 Smith and wesson 617. I use that to shoot a lot of cheep ammo vs the 9mm which costs a bit more to feed. Practice, practice practice. Your not only practicing how to shoot accurately but your practicing how to be safe with a gun.
Have fun.
Wheels.
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I believe it is in conjunction with the concealed weapon. How many CCW holders carry a knife and maybe even an impact weapon? I believe the IW can also be used when a gun is not warranted.
JMHO
Richard
PS: Maybe Rob or Mike or MB can comment.
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I carry gun only..... I am contemplating the necessity of carrying reloads
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I believe it is in conjunction with the concealed weapon. How many CCW holders carry a knife and maybe even an impact weapon? I believe the IW can also be used when a gun is not warranted.
JMHO
Richard
PS: Maybe Rob or Mike or MB can comment.
S&W Extreme Ops folding knife and 1911 ;D
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I carry gun only..... I am contemplating the necessity of carrying reloads
I used to debate that myself. Then my first magazine-based malfunction happened at the range (follower got jammed) and I saw the need to have a second magazine with me if I'm carrying. Otherwise I could end up like the bad guys in the old Superman shows, throwing the gun at whoever is assaulting me.
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I would not get the 327. even if its every thing its hiped up to be( nothing ever is) I would still rather have a 357 mag or 38+p for two reasons:
1 ammo is going to be alot cheaper/ easier to find. Now and in the future
2 its has proven to be an effective tool.
As far as the judge, I don't think its a good choice for you do to you lack of mobilty. 410 out of a short barrel is not exactly a man stoper. Its great for when you want some one to stop so you can run away( great anti car jacking weapon.) You can't run away.
The 45 colt on the other hands is a very powerful round, there are better platforms for 45 colt then the judge.
Using these recommendations of a .357 mag or .38+P as a guide, which model(s) would be suggested? Pros & Cons of each please. Keeping in mind, that price will play a factor in the weapon I choose. I am surprised that the .357 Mag was given as a possible choice, due to its recoil. Am I missing something?
Thank you again for your time, consideration, and cooperation. I hope to hear from you soon,
David
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the reason why I said 357 mag as its a slightly heavyer gun then one made 38+p. That extra wieght will help with recoil.
You don't have to shoot 357 loads, in your 357, but you can't shoot 357 loads in your 38.
In this case a wheel chair will be envoled so you most likly could hid a bigger gun. Say a 4" or 5" gun rather then a 2" or 3" snubby.
Also since wieght is not as big of a concern I would get an all steel gun. I personally like smith revos, and there are plenty of them out there in the used market for half of what they retail for.
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Taurus, Charter, and Ruger are probably the most economical, but S&W in .38 can be had for a reasonable price
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Using these recommendations of a .357 mag or .38+P as a guide, which model(s) would be suggested? Pros & Cons of each please. Keeping in mind, that price will play a factor in the weapon I choose. I am surprised that the .357 Mag was given as a possible choice, due to its recoil. Am I missing something?
Thank you again for your time, consideration, and cooperation. I hope to hear from you soon,
David
I'd say the biggest reason to go with a .357 is price, selection, and availability of ammo. The .327 Magnum is relatively new and not a lot of loads are yet available. With the .357, you can practice with cheap .38 special ammo. There is just a wider range of ammo selection for the .357/.38spl.
Although, with the .327, you can shoot several other .32 caliber loads such as .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R Magnum.
All things considered, I can't find anything bad to say about the .327 round, but I stand by my earlier post and feel that in similar sized guns, go with the bigger caliber. You can always download the .357/.38spl, but you can only go so far upwards with the .327.
Basically, anything the the .327 can do, the .357 or .38 spl can do better....and with a bigger bullet...IMHO.
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I speak from personal experience here...I spent almost two years in a wheelchair, and still have to use it occaisionally. I am a former police officer, who was injured in the line of duty, and as a result, am now retired.
First, as Mr. Pincus mentioned, the weight of the pistol will be born by the chair. Concealment will likewise be handled for the most part by the chair as well. This makes carrying a full-sized fighting handgun possible, practical, and to me....preferable.
Typically, I carry a GLock 19 or a Glock 30 in an IWB crossdraw holster with spare magazines in a similar crossdraw magazine pouch to the left of the gun, while in my chair. It is easily, and rapidly accessible AND comfortable. It conceals well for a couple of reasons. First of which is when you are in a wheelchair....you are invisible. Face it...people give us a quick glance, then look away as if we weren't there. "CUN CARRIER or ARMED CITIZEN" is the last thing MOST people will think of as they try not to see us. While in a wheelchair, cover garments are even more effective, as the clothing tends to bunch up, or fold differently. This is an advantage to us. Third, while in the chair, NO ONE notices a jacket over your lap, or any other such "handicap" aid that we may be using.
I use the same methodology while using my powered mobility scooter. The scooter seat has no arms, and my usual holster placement on my right hip isn't as discreet as it would be if I were walking, so I go back to IWB crossdraw.
As for choice of weapon...I carry a Glock because in my personal experience, they have been 100% reliable. I have literally hundreds of thousands of rounds down range from my various Glock models and have never had a gun-related malfunction. I can't even say that about my Wilson Combat 1911, or my Sig P220. The ballistic payload, 16 rounds in a Glock 19, or 11 rounds in a Glock 30, make it a weapon I can engage a target with, and not have to further manipulate the weapon as often were I to carry a revolver. This is just my personal choice. No one who is good with a wheelgun is ever undergunned, unless he is facing someone who is good with a rifle!
I don't know the extent of your physical limitations, but I have full use of my upper body and all my upper body strength.
I practice weekly on my home range, and I practice from standing, and from sitting. I practice strong, and weak hand, and on multiple targets. Handicapped doesn't mean VICTIM.
Best of luck, I mean that.
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I speak from personal experience here...I spent almost two years in a wheelchair, and still have to use it occaisionally. I am a former police officer, who was injured in the line of duty, and as a result, am now retired.
First, as Mr. Pincus mentioned, the weight of the pistol will be born by the chair. Concealment will likewise be handled for the most part by the chair as well. This makes carrying a full-sized fighting handgun possible, practical, and to me....preferable.
Typically, I carry a GLock 19 or a Glock 30 in an IWB crossdraw holster with spare magazines in a similar crossdraw magazine pouch to the left of the gun, while in my chair. It is easily, and rapidly accessible AND comfortable. It conceals well for a couple of reasons. First of which is when you are in a wheelchair....you are invisible. Face it...people give us a quick glance, then look away as if we weren't there. "CUN CARRIER or ARMED CITIZEN" is the last thing MOST people will think of as they try not to see us. While in a wheelchair, cover garments are even more effective, as the clothing tends to bunch up, or fold differently. This is an advantage to us. Third, while in the chair, NO ONE notices a jacket over your lap, or any other such "handicap" aid that we may be using.
I use the same methodology while using my powered mobility scooter. The scooter seat has no arms, and my usual holster placement on my right hip isn't as discreet as it would be if I were walking, so I go back to IWB crossdraw.
As for choice of weapon...I carry a Glock because in my personal experience, they have been 100% reliable. I have literally hundreds of thousands of rounds down range from my various Glock models and have never had a gun-related malfunction. I can't even say that about my Wilson Combat 1911, or my Sig P220. The ballistic payload, 16 rounds in a Glock 19, or 11 rounds in a Glock 30, make it a weapon I can engage a target with, and not have to further manipulate the weapon as often were I to carry a revolver. This is just my personal choice. No one who is good with a wheelgun is ever undergunned, unless he is facing someone who is good with a rifle!
I don't know the extent of your physical limitations, but I have full use of my upper body and all my upper body strength.
I practice weekly on my home range, and I practice from standing, and from sitting. I practice strong, and weak hand, and on multiple targets. Handicapped doesn't mean VICTIM.
Best of luck, I mean that.
Well said Frisco, having been there I couldn't agree more with your assessment of CCW in a wheelchair. People tend to view the "handicapped" as "helpless victims" instead of someone who can fight back.