The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: CDR on January 23, 2009, 09:17:03 PM
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Rob, I have a question regarding your shooting segment with Michael Janich, when Michael draws his gun into his holster he always keeps his left hand up at eye level while he scans left and right...................why?
Just curious... :)
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He's POSITIVE that it's out of the line of any shot he may have to take, or AD ?
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I would have thought that placing your hand flat against your chest while holstering would accomplish this more effectively and also not potentially limit your field of view when scanning.....no?
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Just guessing.
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I thought Mike or Rob would have already answered this, The off hand is to be ready for possible threats, up and ready before holstering ( holstering is saying everything is cool ) . The pan and scan is for the same reason, before holstering, look left, right, and check your six ( behind you ) before putting the firearm away, rifle, pistol or shotgun. Once the bad guy is on the ground, or the situation is diffused, you don't know if ALL the players are gone, so stay ready!! Get in the habit of panning and scanning before holstering, and keeping the offhand hand and arm up and ready may look silly, but in close quarters, and in intense situations could save your life. It's not over til it's over and then maybe not. >:(
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Wouldn't you achieve a faster engagement with your handgun by maintaining your hand flat against your chest during scanning and then simply bringing your two hands together in a normal drawing motion if you need to re-engage the threat? I'm not convinced bringing your weak hand back to your gun from a raised position is as effective with respect to economy of motion nor does it provide any increased level of awareness simply by keeping it raised by your face.
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Hey guys... How about giving Mike a chance to answer the question? I am sure that he will get to the site soon and give us all a chance to discuss and comment on his answer.
Thanks.
-RJP
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Sorry for the slow response--still digging out after SHOT.
Although I have been shooting for a long time, my perspective on personal defense began with empty-hand training. And one of the first and most important rules of that is to maintain a guard. That lesson was learned the hard way during early training (getting hit in the head is outstanding motivation to learn).
When I got deeper into shooting and started exploring all the different technique options, I ran into what I feel are some serious contradictions. For example, everyone acknowledges that handguns are imperfect "stopping" weapons and that bigger calibers, better bullet designs, and multiple shots are all recommended to stop an attacker decisively. Everyone also acknowledges and "people who need shooting" include all types of threats--from contact-distance knife and club wielders to more distant gun toters. Knowledgeable people also acknowledge that many incidents occur well within the mythical 7-yard range.
Assuming that we're in basic agreement on all these points, it would seem that to be prepared for a likely type of attack, one would need to be prepared to shoot effectively against a at short range against an attacker potentially armed with a contact-distance weapon. Yet despite the logic of that assumption, most shooting techniques actively and purposely advocate putting your hand on your chest or some other place where it does you absolutely no good and you are totally vulnerable to being clanged in the head or stabbed in the neck as you attempt to draw.
There are two basic reasons for this:
1) The techniques were developed by shooters to work well in the static environment of a shooting range. The traditional Speed Rock is a perfect example of this. If you were fighting WITHOUT a gun, the idea of hitting an armed attacker once with your weak hand and then leaning back to put yourself on the edge of your range of balance would be ludicrous. Similarly, the belief that you'll get instant stops from your pistol because you happen to be closer to the target doesn't make sense. Putting two flawed thoughts together doesn't solve the logic problem. You still get hit in the head with a pipe and, if you're quick enough, he gets shot. The Japanese have a term for that--"mutual slaying." That's not good enough for me and sure makes me wonder about them.
2) Liability in training. When students shoot themselves in the hands, that's bad for business. Since "the business" for most of the people who practice this stuff is teaching shooting-oriented tactics, they had to find ways to address close-quarter shooting while minimizing liability. The way to do that is to create techniques that get your hands well away from the muzzle and, consequently, teach you habits that work well on cardboard IPSC targets but don't make sense in a real fight.
In basic terms, reholstering is the exact reverse of your drawstroke. Neurologically, it's actually a great way to reinforce body mechanics and familar task transfer (a better term for what is normally known as "muscle memory"). My drawstroke assumes the likelihood that I might be shooting someone at very close range. As such, after the initial startle response that brings my hands up (the "recognize" phase of Combat Focus), my left hand CONTINUES to guard my head (most people are right handed, most violent attacks use forehand gross-motor-skill strikes that would target the left side of my body, so this is a good default), and my right hand goes to the pistol. The initial grip, lift, and orientation are exactly as shown on the show and are consistent with Rob's approach. At that point, I decide to either shoot from the weapon-retention position (which I have assumed by default as part of the drawstrooke) or that I have the distance to extend the gun safely. If I decide to do that, my left hand comes back to touch my chest for a momentary physical index so my hands can come together safely (this is a point where Rob and I differ, as he advocates bringing the hands together as part of a continuous flow of both arms). I prefer the idea of touching the chest, but only do so when I know I'm not sacrificing my guard against a potential contact-distance attack.
When putting the gun away, I'm rewinding that thought process. Since the effects of SNS activation include tunnel vision and loss of near-vision acuity, I need to make sure that things are safe around me. That's why I scan AND put a guard back up. As for the belief that the guard would obscure my vision, it doesn't. If you notice the position of my hand, it's about a foot or slightly less from my head. Binocular (two-eyed) vision and the scanning movement of my head allows me to see "around" it without a problem and the benefit of having the guard up far outweighs any minor visual obstruction it might cause.
As for the danger of shooting that hand, in addition to insisting on the chest touch before extending the gun, there is an entire set of body mechanics based on empty-hand fighting structure that help keep that from happening. Hopefully, we'll get to that in a future show or a DRTV web-only video (a concept that is in the works).
Finally, I actually believe it is better to "mitigate" close-range attacks empty handed and then go to the gun, rather than fighting or guarding one handed as you try to bring the gun out. This sequences skills rather than trying to duct-tape them together into a bundle that is often a recipe for disaster. An example of this is coming up in Episode 7 of The Best Defense so please keep tuning in.
I hope this covers everything and answers your question thoroughly. If not, you certainly know where to find us.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Michael.....GREAT response. Thank you for your time and courtesy in providing such a thorough explanation. It's true that the majority of us are viewing presentation and re-holstering from a "shooting school" perspective. Your perspective incorporates martial arts and defensive hand to hand training which adds an entirely new dimension. It makes sense.....just not sure that it would be possible to easily retrain the muscle memory developed over the years of doing it the "shooter's way".
Thanks again.
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CDR, It's just like getting to Carnegie Hall, Practice man, practice ;D
Mike, I to would like to thank you. Many of us here tend to equate SD with shooting the attacker and forget that in the real world distance, or the lack of, may make that impossible at some point.
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Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad my response "hit the mark."
As for retraining, try working with a plastic training gun and a partner armed with a padded stick or boxing glove. Work through the draw slowly and reprogram your left hand's position. If you forget--or just need reminding--your partner thumps you on the head. The technical term for that is "motivation."
Stay safe,
Mike
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If you forget--or just need reminding--your partner thumps you on the head. The technical term for that is "motivation."
My mother was from Naples, Italy......she often practiced these "motivation" techniques. A wooden spoon or frying pan were typically the implements of choice........ :)
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Cool place, spent 3 weeks there.
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My Mom was a wooden spoon fan too...
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My Mom was a wooden spoon fan too...
Michael J.......I'm thinking a Blackhawk Tactical Series of Wooden Spoons for SHOT 2010 (in Ebony).
Followed with accessories like rails, QD mounts, one and two point slings...........Training courses at Blackwater and Gunsite??.......................A Blackhawk/Williams-Sonoma limited edition run??
Lets talk.
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My grandmother, who raised me, was a samurai with a wooden spoon. The woman was 4'11" 90lbs, and had lost her left arm in a ranch fire in the 40's. I remain firmly convinced to this day that she could have slain an attacking grizzley bear with her wooden spoon. She also carried a Colt Detective Special in her front apron pocket when doing the banking for Pap's ranch or his gas station. Bless her heart.
Back on topic:
I have watched your technique. I have tried over the last couple of weeks to integrate the "guard" into my holstering. I never gave much conscious thought to my left hand while holstering. When I "watched" myself, I realized I placed my left hand in a position horizontally across, and about 6" in front of my chest. I did it all the time. All it takes is a 90-degree upward and left sweep to get into "guard" position, so I think it will be a fairly easy change to make. It makes sense to me, the yardstick by which I integrate ANYTHING into my training or shooting, to add some cover to my melon. Lord knows I don't need anymore dents in the hat rack.
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Michael J.......I'm thinking a Blackhawk Tactical Series of Wooden Spoons for SHOT 2010 (in Ebony).
Followed with accessories like rails, QD mounts, one and two point slings...........Training courses at Blackwater and Gunsite??.......................A Blackhawk/Williams-Sonoma limited edition run??
Lets talk.
Unfortunately, our R&D funds for 2010 are already committed. Maybe 2011...
Stay safe,
Mike
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I have watched your technique. I have tried over the last couple of weeks to integrate the "guard" into my holstering. I never gave much conscious thought to my left hand while holstering. When I "watched" myself, I realized I placed my left hand in a position horizontally across, and about 6" in front of my chest. I did it all the time. All it takes is a 90-degree upward and left sweep to get into "guard" position, so I think it will be a fairly easy change to make. It makes sense to me, the yardstick by which I integrate ANYTHING into my training or shooting, to add some cover to my melon. Lord knows I don't need anymore dents in the hat rack.
The horizontal arm position is often applied as an "elbow spear" in close-quarters tactics. The problem with it, in my opinion, is that most people are right handed. Most really angry, homicidal right-handed people attack with gross-motor-skill motions, like "caveman" style forehand or overhand attacks to the head and neck. That means the left side of your head and neck is THE primo target (check out the Philadelphia subway hammer attack on YouTube for a handy illustration). The horizontal arm position does little to provide a barrier against these attacks. A vertical forearm helps a lot. Against attacks from the other side (to the right side of your body), I pivot as a unit to use the back of my left arm as a shield and to keep from muzzle flashing my left elbow.
Keep up the great work!
Stay safe,
Mike
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I did some work with this technique today with my wife, who is current LE. I was using a training gun, so we were safe. As you said, I found that I could protect my neck, head, and left eye MUCH better. One more tool for the toolbox.
I would like to see some techniques for defending from that position. I worked out a couple, like going into an arm-bar, and a palm strike to her face (NO, I didn't really hit her), but with limited mobility, I felt off balance. What did work, was crossing over with my right hand, after I holstered, and grabbing the back of her neck, and pulling her head down to a knee in the face. Something I thought might work, but didn't try it with her was to simply beat her in the face with my pistol...kind of a last resort thing.
Man, it is nice to beat my wife up every now and again...lol. Since the truth is, she is 6'2" and 185lbs, and is more than a match for most people I have ever met.
If you are ver in the AZ area, and have some techniques for mobility-limited people, I'd sure attend that class.
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I must say, I have been a Firearms Instructor for a large Law Enforcement agency for 20+ years and I am so glad this show is on the Outdoor Channel.
Mike's response was OUTSTANDING, very well done. I have started incorporating it into my personal training, as well as some other tactics from you guy's.
I usually stay away from posting in the forums as my computer skills are limited, (Better to let them think your a fool then open your mouth and prove it) But i just wanted to say I think Rob and Mike are doing a GREAT job on the show. I am a big fan. Keep up the great work and cant wait to see more.