The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: twyacht on January 24, 2009, 05:39:18 AM
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I have had a CCW since 1996, taken SD, NRA, and other professional shooting and instruction courses. Go to the range ALOT.
Try as many drills as the Range Rules let me, and am left-handed. (Righties got it made in the gun world),...another topic...
BUT In the "real world", i.e. going to the grocery store, I find I'll grab the bags with my dominant hand and go to walk out.
Often, I catch myself before the stroll across the parking lot and switch to my right hand. SOMETIMES I don't.
As I carry IWB, left side or left pocket when I have my P3AT, a left hand full of grocery bags would delay a draw situation. (Yes, I would drop the bags if needed, but in a quick bum rush, in your face, 2 or more BG attack,.. time is of the essence,..Right?)
Questions: Am I the only one that does this? Anything I can do to change this habit consistently? In essence, change a habit?
There was a car jacking in a Ft. Lauderdale, Publix parking lot last week, and the BG was caught later, but as to my mental readiness and physical preparedness, I am closer in the former, but inconsistent with the latter.
As always, thanks to DRTV and the members who can help a lefty become more consistent.
Tom W.
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You could just throw the groceries at the bad guy and then draw.
When I was in high school, a friend of mine was almost mugged, but he hit him in the head with his subway sub and it was enough to make the guy run off. ;D
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In the military, you learn to keep your right hand free when walking outside, because you never know when you will need to salute and officer. Officers around boot camp and tech schools (especially new 2nd Lt's) just love to try and catch you off guard. So you develop the habit pretty quickly to keep the right had free. Even to this day, I tend to carry things more in my left hand.
The point being, practice, practice, practice. It might also help, when you forget, yell at yourself in a mirror for 5 minutes.
But yes, you do have it harder since this is a right handed world.
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Yeah, you can always just drop what you're carrying, staying alert to give you the heads up is more important. You may need two hands anyway - one sweeps the clothing, the other draws. As to new 2nd lts, pitas were dealt with the 'salute rotation'. Enlisted men would just continually walk by and salute. They saluted once each, officer got a rotator cuff issue and tennis elbow...
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Started doing that myself until I made mayself pick up with the off hand. Now it's second nature.
Richard
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Use the cart to get to the car or do what I do and let the wife carry the heavy stuff! ;D
Actually, even though I've been out of the military thirty years, as Alf said, I tend to walk with the right hand free regardless of what I'm doing.
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You learn, you adapt. I always carried my wallet on my weak side so that wasn't an issue for me. Once I started pocket carry I learned to put spare change on my weak side as well. Now I carry change weak side regardless of pocket carry. Car keys I still carry strong side but they're easy to drop/throw if needed.
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The point being, practice, practice, practice. It might also help, when you forget, yell at yourself in a mirror for 5 minutes.
Thanks Alfsauve, I think this method will work for me the best.
That or become a deadly canned foods thrower. ::)
I will also try changing wallet placement to my right side and put my keys in my left pocket to change things up. It will be a change of routine, hopefully the body does what the brain trains it to do, and I can be more consistent.
Thank you
Tom W.
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The fact that you are "catching" yourself and switching the bags to your off hand--even if it's late--is a step in the right direction. Two other suggestions:
1) Before you step out of the store, pause. Get your keys (only the car keys you need, on a separate ring from your house keys) in your off hand and put the grocery bags there as well. Then, once you've got everything situated, walk out the door. Taking that time forces you to think and prepare.
2) Actually practice "busy hands" drills on the range. If you have access to a range that allows moving and shooting, have a partner call the cue as you walk down the firing line with a bag or box and your keys in your off hand. He should NOT require you to drop the bags and shoot every time. Sometimes, he just lets you walk. That way, you learn to react to a stimulus, not just wait for the cue to do the drill.
Great discussion. Keep up the good work!
Stay safe,
Mike
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"Sometimes, he just lets you walk."
Nice touch. When doing IAD drills a lot of instructors suggest having some one else load the mags and put dummies in, that's fine ,but you still know it's coming, in real life you don't.
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I once witnessed a mugging from my 3rd floor office window. A man who also worked in the building was going to his car and carrying a projector with both hands. As he approached the car, which was parked on the street under me, a passerby swung him around by the shoulder. I yelled "STOP" in as loud a voice as I could through the slats in the lower part of my window and the goblin ran off. I called the police as I went down to make sure the victim was OK. He later told me that he was carrying pepper spray in his front pocket, but that he froze up his hands clenched up on what he was carrying. Isn't that a natural instinct to protect what you are carrying?
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Hanging on to what you're carrying is a natural instinct. That's why you need to plan to either drop it, chuck it at him, or work around it. Whenever you pick up anything, you should take a moment to think. "Is this a weapon, a projectile, or a hindrance?" Based on the answer, remind yourself what you would do with it if a situation arose (i.e. use it as a weapon, chuck it at him as a distrction, or either protect it or drop it as appropriate).
Like awareness, these pop quizzes are work, but they are well worth the effort.
Stay safe,
Mike
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The fact that you are "catching" yourself and switching the bags to your off hand--even if it's late--is a step in the right direction. Two other suggestions:
1) Before you step out of the store, pause. Get your keys (only the car keys you need, on a separate ring from your house keys) in your off hand and put the grocery bags there as well. Then, once you've got everything situated, walk out the door. Taking that time forces you to think and prepare.
2) Actually practice "busy hands" drills on the range. If you have access to a range that allows moving and shooting, have a partner call the cue as you walk down the firing line with a bag or box and your keys in your off hand. He should NOT require you to drop the bags and shoot every time. Sometimes, he just lets you walk. That way, you learn to react to a stimulus, not just wait for the cue to do the drill.
Great discussion. Keep up the good work!
Stay safe,
Mike
Good point there. We had an instructor that did that a few times in some drills and folks thought he was being a smart-ass.
Then it made sense when he pointed out that everything is random and training should be also. You shouldn't practice drawing and firing every time.
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Perhaps make the BG a margarita? You grab the lemon and squirt it in his / her eye!! You make some grand thought for the end user Mr. Janich!
~ponders…do margaritas use lemons~
Perhaps a Tom Collins then? ::)
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Both USPSA and IDPA (and even cowboy) feature stages where the shooter starts with something in the strong hand, or with the strong hand opening a door, etc. It's one of the areas where competition can really help your Real World skills.
mb
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I'll second that Michael and add some COF require you pickup/retrive something with one hand or the other to force you to engage targets one handed.
Richard
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Something I do on those rare occaisions when my wife makes me go to a herd gathering at a mall...is carry a "tactical" coffee in my left hand. I get the largest cup I can purshase at a kiosk, and keep it in my left hand with the top on very loosely.
If confronted by someone with an axe to grind from my LE days...I can always "deploy" the 40oz of hot liquid to the face or chest, and give myself time to react in another appropriate manner. My CCW gun is not always the answer. Sometimes a good old fashioned wrist lock or other pain-compliance tool is right for the moment. But a good cup of hot coffee to the torso WILL give you time to react.
Since the leg injuries that ended my LE career, I use a mobility scooter in mall settings. It still works...simply put the drink in the cup holder.
For me...escape is no longer an option as I can't run anymore and walking away at a limp is to expose my back to a threat, so I have had to think outside the box in a situation like this.
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Frisco, I suggest that you also consider a walking stick and some training for those times when a CCW is not caled for.
FWIW
Richard
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Frisco, I suggest that you also consider a walking stick and some training for those times when a CCW is not caled for.
FWIW
Richard
I do use a cane...a soild oak stick with a vicious hook/handle. I have gotten training in restraints, come-along holds, striking, and pain compliance techniques. As for a CCW not being called for...as retired LE, I jumped though the hoops neccessary to obtain my permit under HR218, as well as my AZ CCW. I am ALWAYS armed. But...the pistol is just one tool in my toolbox.
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Frisco, you are a bad ass!
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No...I am just a busted up retired cop with a pair of bad legs and enough time on my hands to figure some stuff out. I just thank God I lived long enough to pull my head out of my butt and learn from the mistakes I, and others made. I have tried to learn all I could from the common sense of others like, Mas Ayoob, Clint Smith, Rob P, Mike J, and of course...Colonel Cooper.
I never blindly follow the tacitool thing of the day, or EVERYTHING any instructor teaches. Isoscoles, Weaver, Modified Weaver, on and on and on. I find those things that work for me, and practice the hell out of them until I have it wired into my melon. I have been lucky enough to take some fine classes..LFI 1 & 2, and I have been to Gunsite twice, and am planning a third visit. I was lucky enough to have Colonel Cooper himself deliver the classroom parts of the training, and some fine instructors on the range. In a year or so, I plan to go to Thunder Ranch.
I have also taken classes where I feel I was robbed of my class tuition because the "instructors" spent more time doing the "SEE WHAT I CAN DO", and "I AM SUCH A BAD OPERATOR I CAN THUS AND SO..." routine, and berating students who might have been new to this kind of lifestyle. They looked good in their 5:11 britches and their tacticool black t-shirts, but they wouldn't survive a chicken fight in the real world, let alone a true deadly force encounter. What was worse, they would get students killed or sent to prison if they did what they were taught in this "class".
I also spend a lot of time pulling the handle on my Dillon, and casting bullets so I can afford to shoot enough to remain proficient...and just because I love to shoot. I shoot my carry gun, and a revolver to stay proficient with both launch platforms. I also shoot a BUNCH of .22lr because it is pure marksmanship I am going for there. Just keep practicing the fundamentals.
I am nowhere near a badass. I don't want to be a badass. I am just a husband and father, and trying to be the best at that I can be, and being able to protect my family is a responsibility I take very seriously. I have the luxury of time to read, research, shoot, and plan.
I enjoy teaching though, and sometimes I substitute teach at our local high school, so if I start to "teach" or "preach"....know that I come by it honestly, and kick my soapbox out from under me.
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Ok, but you are definitely one of the best new recruits we have gotten on this here forum recently.... we sure are glad to have ya.
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Ok, but you are definitely one of the best new recruits we have gotten on this here forum recently.... we sure are glad to have ya.
I appreciate that, and glad to know you. Handshakes and beer! (But only one beer...beer decided I didn't like it anymore) ;D
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Tacticool...I like that! I'll have to borrow it if you don't mind!
A wealth of information and experience is always welcome Frisco, thanks!
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No...I am just a busted up retired cop with a pair of bad legs and enough time on my hands to figure some stuff out. I just thank God I lived long enough to pull my head out of my butt and learn from the mistakes I, and others made. I have tried to learn all I could from the common sense of others like, Mas Ayoob, Clint Smith, Rob P, Mike J, and of course...Colonel Cooper.
I never blindly follow the tacitool thing of the day, or EVERYTHING any instructor teaches. Isoscoles, Weaver, Modified Weaver, on and on and on. I find those things that work for me, and practice the hell out of them until I have it wired into my melon. I have been lucky enough to take some fine classes..LFI 1 & 2, and I have been to Gunsite twice, and am planning a third visit. I was lucky enough to have Colonel Cooper himself deliver the classroom parts of the training, and some fine instructors on the range. In a year or so, I plan to go to Thunder Ranch.
I have also taken classes where I feel I was robbed of my class tuition because the "instructors" spent more time doing the "SEE WHAT I CAN DO", and "I AM SUCH A BAD OPERATOR I CAN THUS AND SO..." routine, and berating students who might have been new to this kind of lifestyle. They looked good in their 5:11 britches and their tacticool black t-shirts, but they wouldn't survive a chicken fight in the real world, let alone a true deadly force encounter. What was worse, they would get students killed or sent to prison if they did what they were taught in this "class".
I also spend a lot of time pulling the handle on my Dillon, and casting bullets so I can afford to shoot enough to remain proficient...and just because I love to shoot. I shoot my carry gun, and a revolver to stay proficient with both launch platforms. I also shoot a BUNCH of .22lr because it is pure marksmanship I am going for there. Just keep practicing the fundamentals.
I am nowhere near a badass. I don't want to be a badass. I am just a husband and father, and trying to be the best at that I can be, and being able to protect my family is a responsibility I take very seriously. I have the luxury of time to read, research, shoot, and plan.
I enjoy teaching though, and sometimes I substitute teach at our local high school, so if I start to "teach" or "preach"....know that I come by it honestly, and kick my soapbox out from under me.
Frisco, you said a whole lot of truth in a short amount of space and you pretty much summed up my own particular perspective. Get as much learning and training as you can and then use good thought-out common sense to sort out the fluff and find what is right and what works best for you. I respect what the competent instructors have to offer and am always willing to listen and learn from them all, but basically when the crap flies into the oscillating fan, it is you alone in the spotlight.
It would be nice to have Pincus and Janich on my six, but I couldn't afford to feed them. ;)
Like you said, I don't want to be a badass either....but I want to be as prepared as I can to handle the goblins if they come a calling.
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i'm gonna throw the groceries at my attacker, and then go directly to gun. lol! just kiddin ;D
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I have also taken classes where I feel I was robbed of my class tuition because the "instructors" spent more time doing the "SEE WHAT I CAN DO", and "I AM SUCH A BAD OPERATOR I CAN THUS AND SO..." routine, and berating students who might have been new to this kind of lifestyle. They looked good in their 5:11 britches and their tacticool black t-shirts
Good stuff, Frisco.
This is one of the reasons that there is not a shooting test to become certified as a Combat Focus Shooting Instructor. Written test of knowledge and performance teaching tests only..... it isn't about what the instructor can do with a gun, it is about what the student can do! It amazes me how many "successful" instructors really, really don't get that. I encourage students to ask an instructor how important they think there own personal skill is to their ability to teach others and how much demo'ing they will do before signing up for a class.
Typically, a student in a 2 day CFS will fire between 1250 and 1500 rnds and see their instructor fire less than 10. Two or Three when explaining slide lock reload procedures and 4 when explaining the Shooting in Motion Drill.... and some instructors don't even do those live. Most of us don't wear guns while we teach.
As for the cane, I have traveled quite a bit with a Cane Master fighting cane. I used to teach a cane defense seminar relatively often at the Resort that was associated with Valhalla for frequent travelers interested in a self defense tool that you can take anywhere...
-RJP
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Watching SHOOTING GALLERY took me to THE BEST DEFENSE, which got me to this forum. When I saw the segments you and Mike J do on the shows, my "That Makes Sense" detector went off. I like the way you demonstrate, then explain, then show how it is done through drill and dramatization. I really like your style, and like I said...it plain makes sense to me, and that is the yardstick by which I measure anything.
The defensive tactics training I received when I went through the academy a hundred years ago focused on 25 yard bullseye qualification with a Smith & Wesson Model 10 .38Special, and striking techniques with a PR24 baton. A six-cell MagLite was considered hi tech, and we had an officer who knew "some judo and some karate" as our defensive tactics instructor.
The world sure has changed, and there is a lot of good training out there. I had to go out and find the good training I have received on my own, and add to that some experience, and street savvy. What I do know, is that I can spot a snake oil salesman a mile away now, and you and Mike J sure don't fit that descrition at all.
I appreciate what you do and the way you do it, and if you do any training here in AZ, I will be there for sure.
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Anything I can do to change this habit consistently? In essence, change a habit?
I wonder if in the store you are in condition white. When you get into the parking lot then you go into condition yellow.
A nice link:
http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm (http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm)
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My wife questioned me the other day as to why I always carry our baby girl in my left hand and I explained to her that I always keep my strong hand free. I was taught to do this as a Security Policeman in the Air Force and continues with me over 20 years later. She completely understood after I explained it to her. Now I am trying to get adjusted to carrying my knife in my left pocket as Michael Janich suggested.
I had given up carrying a gun for over 10 years. Last year, after a series of robberies and a homocide close to home and the declining economy I decided that it would be in my wife and mine's best interest to get our CCW. I have her watch TBD and she really takes in the info. We do not have to take classes for our CCW here in Indiana. Just pay the money, fill out the paperwork, get fingerprinted, Indiana State Police Background Check and wait 6 weeks for it to come in the mail. My wife and I have discussed taking a class at Gunsite or similar place so she could get more experience. Till then, she learns from me and watching The Best Defense.
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Good on you for thinking about it.
I wouldn't consider that carrying groceries would tie up my hands since I would drop them and draw. Carrying a child is a different though, and I do try and keep strong side clear when possible when doing that (at least until my weak side arms gets to tired and I switch :-[)
I don't know if this would help you any, but I typically carry a mid-sized or compact handgun (9 mike or 45) IWB strong side plus an air-weight J-Frame in my weak side front pocket. I find that a little j-frame in a front pocket is incredibly comfortable. Granted it won't work with certain pants.
My logic being (right or wrong *shrug*) that I have the ability to draw should the strong-side arm be pinned, damaged or otherwise preoccupied. There is certainly a downside to this in that the backup's spare ammo ends up in a speed strip in the strong side pocket, which makes for some joggling should the backup need a reload. Concealed carry, and life itself is an act of compromise, and I feel that the advantage I gain by having the ability to draw strong or weak side surpasses the advantage I would gain from having spare ammo for the backup in the appropriate pocket.
I know it has been mentioned previously, but practicing drawing and engaging targets at the range is advisable. Most ranges already have sandbags around. I’ve practiced drawing, firing, reloading and racking the slide one-handed. Be extremely observant of your muzzle during some of these drills to ensure you do not sweep the line.
Be safe.
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Good on you for thinking about it.
I wouldn't consider that carrying groceries would tie up my hands since I would drop them and draw. Carrying a child is a different though, and I do try and keep strong side clear when possible when doing that (at least until my weak side arms gets to tired and I switch :-[)
I don't know if this would help you any, but I typically carry a mid-sized or compact handgun (9 mike or 45) IWB strong side plus an air-weight J-Frame in my weak side front pocket. I find that a little j-frame in a front pocket is incredibly comfortable. Granted it won't work with certain pants.
My logic being (right or wrong *shrug*) that I have the ability to draw should the strong-side arm be pinned, damaged or otherwise preoccupied. There is certainly a downside to this in that the backup's spare ammo ends up in a speed strip in the strong side pocket, which makes for some joggling should the backup need a reload. Concealed carry, and life itself is an act of compromise, and I feel that the advantage I gain by having the ability to draw strong or weak side surpasses the advantage I would gain from having spare ammo for the backup in the appropriate pocket.
I know it has been mentioned previously, but practicing drawing and engaging targets at the range is advisable. Most ranges already have sandbags around. I’ve practiced drawing, firing, reloading and racking the slide one-handed. Be extremely observant of your muzzle during some of these drills to ensure you do not sweep the line.
Be safe.
If your strong side hand is freed up to dig out the reload for the J frame, why not just draw the other pistol ?
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As the OP of this thread, I just want to say thanks for all the advice and personal input that I think helps us all become more aware of our surroundings and threat level. 99% of the time, there is no threat, I don't shop at 11:48 p.m, or other things that would put me in the wrong place at the wrong time.
However, with the 6:00 news showing more "Broad Daylight" attacks, robberies, assaults, etc,.. the SPEED in which things can go wrong at 4:15 p.m. has me "becoming even more aware".
I maybe odd or the only one, but I wake up to pee or get a glass of water in the middle of the night, when its all quiet and dark, and "study" or "case" my house. If I were to hear something from this side of the house, or that side of the house, what would my plan be. If I were to break in to this (my) house, what's the easiest way?
In the same mindset, I try (boy do I try), to do the same thing when in public. The case of the "What if's" cross my mind all the time. What would I do if????
I haven't learned enough, I keep trying and practicing (even with snap caps cause ammo's so expensive), as other threads have said: "Having Situational Awareness" of my surroundings really makes a difference.
Wish we lived in a better world, but we don't, and I will NOT be a victim.
Thanks for all the posts, as always, I learn much from this forum..
Tom W.
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If your strong side hand is freed up to dig out the reload for the J frame, why not just draw the other pistol ?
Sorry, I was mixing scenarios.
Scenario 1 - strong side pinned - can't get to primary - draw backup - in this scenario you're right in that the fastest reload would be to drop the revolver and draw the .semi-auto riding strong side IWB.
Scenario 2 - draw primary and for reason of a hard stop (slide lock after reloads or a malfunction that tap-rack doesn’t cure) I go to backup – It is in this scenario the reload of the backup becomes a little ticklish. It’s doable, but it involves swapping the J-Frame to my weak hand to grab the spare strip of .38s. Fortunately this is enough evolutions down the line where it isn’t as likely to be an issue.
The spare ammo for the backup is almost like my contingency of a contingency of a contingency plan. I don’t have a plan “Z” yet, but give me time and I’ll get there. ;)
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One of the things that helps in my situation is the fact that my wife now has a CCW and we both carry. One can cover the other if need be while shopping with the baby.