The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Rob10ring on January 28, 2009, 06:19:44 PM
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Recently, in my Glock 22 (40 S&W) I tried 165gr. Winchester instead of my usual 180gr. to see if recoil seemed any different. I couldn't tell the difference and maybe I should have put alternating rounds in the magazine. Is there a specific rule about how the weight effects recoil or muzzle rise? Does a faster, lighter bullet "kick" more than the heavier, slower one?
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That's only a 15 grain difference in weight, in a pistol at least any gain may be balanced by the higher speed.
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That's only a 15 grain difference in weight, in a pistol at least any gain may be balanced by the higher speed.
Does it make a difference which one I buy then?
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I'd say your groups would answer that better than I could. But don't take my advice, I'm just guessing. Wait till some one like MB or M25operator weighs in. They'll probably know more.
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All things being equal, a lighter bullet will have less recoil in a given cartridge, 15 grns in hot cartridge like the .40, it will not be real apparent, the .40 S&W, has a decided snap to it, what I call recoil impulse, it is sharp and sudden. As to which you should buy or shoot, which one shoots the best?, and is it a quality, dependable load, like say from Hornaday ( tap ), Federal ( hydro shock ), Speer ( Gold dot ), Corbon ( using the barnes bullet ) etc.. The .40 is odd, in that some of the lighter bullets are pushed real hard, and the recoil is surprising, like the CorBon 135grn Nosler Hollow point. It is a very sharp recoil, not like a .44mag, but it will get your attention. I think it is slide velocity that brings this feeling.
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If two loads are equal in energy, the high velocity lightweight bullets will have less recoil than slow heavy bullets. In a .45, if you compare 165 grain with 230 grain loads you would feel the difference. In a .357 comparing 110 to 158 or 180 grain bullets you would be able to tell the difference too. But with 165 vs 180 grain bullets the difference is probably to small to pecieve.
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I don't understand all the physics and will leave it up to the really smart guys to answer that, but I do know that it is more than just one factor that makes a difference.
My open gun (.45 acp) will almost run on factory 230 grain loads. I can load a little hot with 230 gr., hotter with 185 gr., hotter with 155 gr., and sometimes I get a different feel and sometimes I don't. What I have found is that it is not only bullet weight, but also rate of powder burn. I am loading really hot (just over 190 power factor) and getting less felt recoil than a load at 170 power factor. Light bullets and fast burning powder run good and feel good ... in one gun. It is different in my 1911, and another for my revolver.
Sorry, but I can't give you a simple answer.
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All good advice. It seems that I'm mostly comparing apples to apples, with such a small difference. I have noticed that the 135 gr. Corbon does have quite a snap, and that's what is in my model 23.
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While the different combinations will cause your firearm to handle differently, I think you should focus more on downrange performance. Different bullet weights travelling at different speeds are going to deliver different downrange performance. Do some research regarding the performance of the different bullet weights and select the weight based on the performance you desire.
It's been my experience that the heavier bullets recoil less. Lighter bullets require more powder to generate higher velocities. More powder equals more recoil. Whether it's only perceived recoil, I'm not sure, but I do know that an overwhelming amount of competition shooters use heavier bullets as recoil seems to be lighter (everything else being equal.)
USSA-1
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I shoot .45+p and .40 the heaver pistol has less recoil Its what you are comfortable with. The snappy polymer pistols put people off the tried and tru defensive rounds, which is a shame,. the 147 9mm and the 180 .40 are the best of the best. I dont like the frangibles or the lite fast rounds. just my .02
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Powder weight plus bullet weight causes most of the recoil and the velocity doesn't matter as much, but since the bullet weighs so much more than the powder, I'm going to ignore the powder weight. If you double the bullet weight but the velocity stays the same, you double the energy and the recoil. If the bullet weight stays the same but the velocity doubles, you get 4 times the energy, because the energy increases as a square of the velocity, but the recoil is only 2 times as much, not 4 times as much. Lighter bullets always have less recoil than heavier bullets at the same muzzle energy. The gun may or may not recoil faster with lighter faster bullets, but it will always kick HARDER with slow heavy bullets of the same energy.
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From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil
Recoil is from the law of conservation of momentum. Energy is a quality of work that can be measured. When discussing recoil and energy it tends to be more understandable if one thinks of them separately.
The recoil of a firearm, both large and small, is a function of the law conservation of momentum and can be stated mathematically as mf·vf = mp·vp from Newton's third law.
The energy of a recoiling firearm can be stated mathematically as Et=0.5·m·v² from Newton's second law.
The following are base examples calculated through the Handloads.com free online calculator, and bullet and firearm data from respective reloading manuals (of medium/common loads) and manufacturer specs:
In a Glock 22 frame, using the empty weight of 1.43 lb (0.65 kg), the following was obtained:
9 mm Luger: Recoil Impulse of .78 ms; Recoil Velocity of 17.55 ft/s (5.3 m/s); Recoil Energy of 6.84 ft·lbf (9.3 J)
.357 SIG: Recoil Impulse of 1.06 ms; Recoil Velocity of 23.78 ft/s (7.2 m/s); Recoil Energy of 12.56 ft·lbf (17.0 J)
.40 S&W: Recoil Impulse of .88 ms; Recoil Velocity of 19.73 ft/s (6.0 m/s); Recoil Energy of 8.64 ft·lbf (11.7 J)
In a Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum with 7.5-inch barrel, with an empty weight of 3.125 lb (1.417 kg), the following was obtained:
.44 Remington Magnum: Recoil Impulse of 1.91 ms; Recoil Velocity of 19.69 ft/s (6.0 m/s); Recoil Energy of 18.81 ft·lbf (25.5 J)
In a Smith and Wesson 460 7.5-inch barrel, with an empty weight of 3.5 lb (1.6 kg), the following was obtained:
.460 S&W Magnum: Recoil Impulse of 3.14 ms; Recoil Velocity of 28.91 ft/s (8.8 m/s); Recoil Energy of 45.43 ft·lbf (61.6 J)
In a Smith and Wesson 500 4.5-inch barrel, with an empty weight of 3.5 lb (1.6 kg), the following was obtained:
.500 S&W Magnum: Recoil Impulse of 3.76 ms; Recoil Velocity of 34.63 ft/s (10.6 m/s); Recoil Energy of 65.17 ft·lbf (88.4 J)
In addition to the overall mass of the gun, reciprocating parts of the gun will effect how the shooter perceives recoil. While these parts are not part of the ejecta, and do not alter the overall momentum of the system, they do involve moving masses during the operation of firing. For example, gas operated shotguns are widely held to have a "softer" recoil than fixed breech or recoil operated guns. In a gas operated gun, the bolt is accelerated rearwards by propellant gases during firing, which results in a forward force on the body of the gun. This is countered by a rearward force as the bolt reaches the limit of travel and moves forwards, resulting in a zero sum, but to the shooter, the recoil has been spread out over a longer period of time, resulting in the "softer" feel.[
From The Physics of Everyday Stuff http://www.bsharp.org/physics/stuff/recoil.html
Secondary Recoil
There are actually two distinct recoils from a gun: the first, primary recoil, which I've described above, conserves momentum of the gun-bullet system. However, a larger secondary recoil comes slightly later, when the bullet leaves the muzzle: then the hot expanding gas behind the bullet shoots out of the muzzle, and the muzzle recoils further like a rocket. This is, again, conservation of momentum, but in this case is is the gas momentum out of the barrel that makes the secondary recoil. Gun manufacturers make baffles that reduce the flow of gas out of the muzzle to reduce secondary recoil. Primary recoil cannot be reduced, since it is simply associated with the forward momentum of the bullet.