The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on January 28, 2009, 09:58:23 PM
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I'm trying to figure out what is driving the "craze" with .380. Does this round have an advantage over a 9 x 19? Is there something I have missed, or is it a marketing thing that is driving this.
One thing I know is that I hate having .380 ammo around. It is really easy to mix up with 9 x 19. If you have both don't drop some unless you want to spend some time reading fine print to insure there is no intermixing.
Not really important, but I am scratching my head over why this has become such a popular caliber lately.
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Mostly I think it's because the guns are small and easily concealed under minimal clothing. Haz has often said that where he is it's shorts and T shirts most of the time so the P3AT is perfect to drop in a pocket. Then you have an increase in CCW 's were many people have no real knowledge of guns and either think (mistakenly) that a little gun will be easier to handle than a bigger one, or that the little gun is "cute". The .380's have a valid place in self defense, if you wear limited clothing you can't conceal a 1911, in situation where an awareness that you are carrying could have adverse consequences the .380 again is extremely concealable. For example, your employer has a "No guns" policy, but you leave at 1:15 am in a bad part of town, so you decide to carry anyway, a .380 could be completely hidden behind your belt buckle and no one would detect it unless they frisked you or tried to attack you.
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The only reason I have a .380 is because I wanted a pocket pistol as a BUG. I keep looking at a snubbie but I can't feel confident with my grip on it because I messed up my hands. It isn't something I shoot alot, it's just a BUG.
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Like Haz, I also have a P3AT and LOVE it. Warm weather and light clothes are no problem. I also have a Walther PPK/S, much heavier but more large hand friendly, and recoil is much lighter.
IMHO, bullet technology make a .380 valid as an up close SD firearm. Cor-Bon, Golden Sabre, Gold-Dots, those new ones from Winchester (can't remember the name,) ???
The mad rush to get CCW permits, LOTS more women getting permits, the manufacturers must have done demographic studies finding a demand.
Great link with 1 shot stop percentages ammo specific. (Can also change caliber and bullet weight.)
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=10&Weight=All
Cor-bon has a 71% 1 shot stop. Not too shabby...
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Several gun experts consider the .380 to be the minimum effective SD caliber. A lot of people probably carry them for that reason. They can't, or don't want to, carry a full sized .45 so they carry the minumum amount of firepower reccomended by the experts. In just the past few years the ammo has finally been developed to the the point of making it truly effective. I think that's the main reason for the current .380 craze.
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I hear you, I like the 762x25 far superior to the small 9
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I hear you, I like the 762x25 far superior to the small 9
Can you get effective SD ammo for it ? I thought it was all FMJ.
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I think I've been misunderstood, and it is because I wasn't clear with my question.
The actual cartridge package of the .380 auto and the 9 mm Luger is so similar, why did everyone (manufacturers) go with a less common choice. I believe that the slight increase in size for the 9 mm would not be noticed by any but those with the smallest of hands, and the recoil increase would be insignificant.
That is where I was headed. Why market a gun that uses less common and more expensive ammo than one that uses one of the most common and inexpensive out there.
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It's easy to make lightweight blowback operated pistols in .380 that don't have much recoil. A 9mm blowback pistol would be heavier, and a locked breech 9mm would be heavier, more complicated to make, and more expensive.
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More people in the market may mean that those buying have less knowledge of handguns in general relying on the knowledge of the salesman to persuade them to buy what he has in stock.
Since blowback pistols are cheaper to make and cheaper to inventory, salesman want to unload what they have rather than order a gun for a customer. If you let someone think too long on the sale, sometimes they will back out. Small, light, cheap, easy to conceal with or without a holster, drop it in a purse, pocket, glovebox, car visor....these are all selling points for these pistols. As more people have them and shoot them, the price of ammo may come down, maybe not. It's a hundred year old cartridge that has it's place.
If I could get the wife to carry anything, it would be something easy to shoot, easy to carry and most importantly something she was comfortble with. My problem with .380 ACP is that there are so many names for that particular cartridge (9mm Kurz, Corto etc....), less knowledgable people may try and force 9x19 into one and get hurt.
2-1/2 cents...
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The actual cartridge package of the .380 auto and the 9 mm Luger is so similar, why did everyone (manufacturers) go with a less common choice. I believe that the slight increase in size for the 9 mm would not be noticed by any but those with the smallest of hands, and the recoil increase would be insignificant.
If you can, compare 2 Kel Tecs, the P3AT and the PF4 (I think that's their 9mm) .
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Your 2 1/2 cents scores a buck with me Timothy!
You nailed it. Now if we could just get a gun manufacturer to come along and explain why they always seem to go for the spare tire (similar but different). Don't get me wrong on change. When polymer guns came out many manufacturers came along, and we have great guns to show for it. We also have something for everyone. However, look at the calibers - .45 acp, .40 S&W, 9 x19 cover the majority of all practical and popular guns across the board, but every once in a while someone decides it is time to make something close but not quite.
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P3AT PF9 Difference
Calibers : .380 AUTO 9mm Luger
Weight unloaded lbs. : 8.3 oz. 12.7 oz. 4.4 oz.
Loaded magazine : 2.8 oz. 2.8 oz. 0.0 oz. ??????
Length : 5.2" 5.85" 0.65"
Height : 3.5" 4.3" 0.80"
Width : .77" .88" 0.11"
Barrel Length : 3.1"
Sight radius : 3.8"
Capacity : 6 + 1 rounds 7 + 1 rounds 1 round
This info is from the Kel-tec web site.
I do not understand why the loaded magazine weight is the same when the PF9 is carrying 1 more round. Probably a mistake.
The PF9 is 4.4oz. heavier empty and should be a bit more loaded.
the PF9 is almost 3/4 of an inch longer .65"
The PF9 is close to an inch taller .80"
The PF9 is just a tenth of an inch wider .11"
I am wondering why they didn't make the PF9 the same capacity and with as similar dimensions as possible.
It might be that the extra size is needed in 9mm to make the gun as easy to handle as the P3AT
BTW, neither the P3AT or Ruger LCP are blowback.
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I am wondering why they didn't make the PF9 the same capacity and with as similar dimensions as possible.
It might be that the extra size is needed in 9mm to make the gun as easy to handle as the P3AT
Case pressures are much higher in 9x19...??? Just a WAG...
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On the weight another way of saying that might give the OP a different perspective is that the 9mm weighs 1/2 again as much as the .380.
I'm no real fan of the .380, but if I needed a little something up my sleeve or in my pocket I'd rather have a .380 than a .25. Heck, I'd rather have a .22 than a .25 ;D
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P3AT PF9 Difference
Calibers : .380 AUTO 9mm Luger
Weight unloaded lbs. : 8.3 oz. 12.7 oz. 4.4 oz.
Loaded magazine : 2.8 oz. 2.8 oz. 0.0 oz. ??????
Length : 5.2" 5.85" 0.65"
Height : 3.5" 4.3" 0.80"
Width : .77" .88" 0.11"
Barrel Length : 3.1"
Sight radius : 3.8"
Capacity : 6 + 1 rounds 7 + 1 rounds 1 round
This info is from the Kel-tec web site.
I do not understand why the loaded magazine weight is the same when the PF9 is carrying 1 more round. Probably a mistake.
The PF9 is 4.4oz. heavier empty and should be a bit more loaded.
the PF9 is almost 3/4 of an inch longer .65"
The PF9 is close to an inch taller .80"
The PF9 is just a tenth of an inch wider .11"
I am wondering why they didn't make the PF9 the same capacity and with as similar dimensions as possible.
It might be that the extra size is needed in 9mm to make the gun as easy to handle as the P3AT
BTW, neither the P3AT or Ruger LCP are blowback.
They might be loading the mags to the same number for comparison. Like I said, there is not much difference in the rounds. Even if you look at the energy produced it is not much different.
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They might be loading the mags to the same number for comparison. Like I said, there is not much difference in the rounds. Even if you look at the energy produced it is not much different.
The info I pulled was from the spec page on each individual product. It was not on a comparison page.
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My reasons for a .380 are much less technical and much more personal....my wife was injured in a car accident a few years back and now has a 70% loss of range of motion in left arm. She can handle the FEG .380 easily with one hand, the 9mm requires 2.
Plus the FEG is so heavy can make an effective club too! :P She keeps it in the nightstand when I work nights.
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"What Am I Missing? "
A .380 for your collection ?
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One reason I got my LCP is my wife doesn't like the idea of a gun around that isn't locked in the safe! She doesn't know if/when I have a gun handy and will never know until we need it!!!!!!!!
FWIW
Richard
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"What Am I Missing? "
A .380 for your collection ?
I had one, but I got sick of trying to keep it and 9 X 19 ammo separate!
I still think that the gun manufacturers could make a 9mm in a package similar to the .380.
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I still think that the gun manufacturers could make a 9mm in a package similar to the .380.
That is what I am lusting after! An 8.5 oz 6+1 in 9x19 Gimme, gimme, gimme!
Rohrbaugh got it down to 12.8 oz, but those guns are costly..... $1000 :o
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I think the popularity is for BUG guns, & women jumping into CCW like less recoil. .380 is a short round the same size as 9mm. Most of the manufactures make .380 Self Defense rounds. GT
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I acquired a Ruger LCP recently and I love it.
It is always with me...in my pajama pocket when I go out to get the paper in the morning and all day long at home unless I am bathing. ...and then I've found I suddenly feel unarmed in the shower since I started carrying it all the time.
I generally carry a Glock 21sf and a Glock 23..now with either or both of them I carry the LCP.
When in a hurry, it is the gun I take with me...mainly because it was already in my pocket.
While I almost always took the time to wear the G23 on any errand, I seldom wore it around the house. It was handy most of the time...but a trip to the garage or basement or bathroom would put it out of reach...
Simply put, the LCP has changed my carry frequency to near 100%.
Only down side is that it is now so second nature that carrying into a restricted area inadvertently will be more likely.
And Yes...all this would be accomplished with a 9mm if it were of the same size and weight...same goes for a .40
We will see if someone develops one of those in this compact a package.
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My $0.02
What am I gaining by carrying a .380 Auto over a J frame revolver?
Relaiblity? I don't think so.
Stopping power? I doubt it
Accuracy? Maybe, maybe not. Is that really a problem at contact distance?
Size? It is slimmer but I can keep a J frame in my pocket all summer long wearing shorts and a T shirt and nobody knows.
Manual of Arms? J-frame pull trigger, repeat as needed. No tap, rack, tap rack strip......
Cuteness? Lord help us if thats why you buy a carry gun.
I did carry a Seacamp .32 for many years but only as a BUG. I never needed it but I assumed I would have to shoot it dry if I ever did.
A polymer Kahr or Glock 26 in 9mm would seem to a much better answer to any question.
Just me but I would rather have my knife than a small .380 ACP.
BUT....buying any firearm is good for all gun owners. Buy more guns, ammo, hosters and training while we can.
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ratcatcher,
It is about size. Yesterday they did a comparison on different carry guns on another show (Inside Shooting USA) and the J frame is almost twice as thick as the .380 auto. It is about concealability. However, I'm big enough you could hide a Barett in my jeans pocket, so I don't really care ;D
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ratcatcher,
It is about size. Yesterday they did a comparison on different carry guns on another show (Inside Shooting USA) and the J frame is almost twice as thick as the .380 auto. It is about concealability. However, I'm big enough you could hide a Barett in my jeans pocket, so I don't really care ;D
Now you're stepping into my pig pen........... ;)
I have, on several occasions (mostly while confined to a wheelchair) carried a Glock 27 in the bib pocket of my Liberty overalls (without a round in the chamber, of course).
8)