The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: TheBowhunter on January 30, 2009, 04:19:13 PM

Title: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: TheBowhunter on January 30, 2009, 04:19:13 PM
I wont say I can not defend myself? In some the situation deadly force may be to extreme. and verbally or fleeing is not going work. Physical force is needed!  I will not say I can not handle the situation but would be better off twenty years ago before I broke my Back five times. The last one I consider myself lucky to be here and walking after falling fifteen feet.
 I do try to be active my Wife and I walk three to four miles every night, I do exercise, I keep active working as a school crossing guard and I shoot my Bows almost every other day.
 my concern  is will my back hold up without wearing my back brace. I Know I need some special training to handle force on force situation if I do need to  protect myself and family besides the use of deadly force.

 I need to know where I can get training to help me with my back situation!
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: TheBowhunter on January 30, 2009, 04:52:24 PM
OH I might add here as well I have taken the CCW class and now waiting my clearance to be approved  here in about three weeks?
I have been shooting guns since about 11 years old  so that is no problem. I know I will get it I have never been in trouble and have received four honorable discharges for the Army after enlisting several time the last being before Desert storm after which I received a medical. 
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: cooptire on January 30, 2009, 05:13:14 PM
BowHunter, I can't really help you with the training question but, I wanted to say "Welcome aboard" to a fellow Kansan. (Even if you are in purple kitty country.  ;)
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: shooter32 on January 30, 2009, 05:26:04 PM
Bowhunter, are you looking to rehab your back? Or do you need special training because of your back?

Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: TheBowhunter on January 31, 2009, 07:16:06 PM
no not rehab I am looking for a way to defend my self
need to find a good way to move  and hand to hand help I quess you can say I am looking for a good hand to hand, self defense class that will help me from being a casualty after
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: pioneer on February 05, 2009, 04:08:37 PM
Bowhunter, If I may be blunt, why are you concerned about non-lethal force? 

I am not an attorney, I don't play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express.  Seriously, from what I understand of your injuries, it seems you are in danger of serious physical injury, or death if you try to engage almost anyone in a physical confrontation.  Anyone who would assault you is a serious threat and should be dealt with appropriately.   When it comes to fighting for your life, or the life of your bride, anything goes.  There is no such thing as a "fair fight."  Either you win and live, or you lose and die, or your loved one dies. 

In virtually every state, laws are on the books and court rulings support the concept that a person who is more vulnerable than others because of a physical disability, or condition, or advanced age, etc. are justified in using deadly force if they reasonably  believe their life is in danger.   Is it reasonable to expect a 70 year old woman in a wheel chair to physically fight an able bodied young attacker?  No.  Same thing applies to someone such as you describe yourself. 

In researching officer involved shootings several years ago, I found a couple of cases where police officers were attacked by an unarmed, but physically larger and stronger assailant.  In both cases the officer found himself and herself being choked to the point of losing consciousness, when they were able to use their firearms to survive.  Good shootings in both cases.  You don't have to take it, whatever IT is.  You don't have to joust with someone who seriously wants to hurt you. 

You are legally justified in using deadly force under certain circumstances.  If you have a moral or ethical concern, may I suggest you seek the services of a professional counselor, or member of the clergy for spiritual guidance?   

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/police.png)
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: TheBowhunter on February 05, 2009, 05:29:04 PM
Its not that I am afraid use of lethal force. The deal is I have called LEO on neighbor for threat to Kill me and if I use Deadly force on him I would be the one in Jail.
yeah I might be protecting myself nut the fine line is I have had to call on him before>
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: tombogan03884 on February 05, 2009, 07:13:56 PM
Talk to a local attorney. Get the facts on local laws and your options under them.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: Rastus on February 06, 2009, 05:48:23 AM
Don't let the threat of breaking the law lead you down a lifetime path of regret.  Burying a spouse or a child or even being confined to a wheelchair for life makes the choice terrible, but accepatable for me.

Some things are worth going to prison or dying for.

Something for all to ponder.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: Rob Pincus on February 06, 2009, 07:53:33 AM
Bowhunter,

I have been thinking about this and I definitely applaud you for two things:

1. Realizing that the gun is not always gun to be the answer. WAY too many people think just because they have a gun they are safe. I would say that 75% of my students would be overwhelmed by a determined attacker a close range before they ever got to their gun.

2. Still being interested in your responsibility for defense despite your health issues.

That said, you are obviously working from a deficit. It is counter-intuitive, but still true, that those with the most serious physical problems are the ones who ned the most close quarters training. A 24 year old SEAL is much more likely to be able to use awareness and athleticism to be able to get to a CCW pistol than a 63 year old overweight car salesman. I'm much more likely to have the young guy in an Extreme Close Quarters Tactics course, but Wilford Brimley is the guy who really needs the skills more. Both Mike Janich an I would welcome you into any of our courses, but you might also consider attending training offered by Shivworks, http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asps (http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asps). At this time I do not have any ECQT courses scheduled for civilian students, though we are looking into some options to have my Regional Reps start hosting the courses later in the year. Meanwhile, I know that Shivworks would welcome you into a course and give you some great training. I trained with him last year and there were a variety of body types and athleticisms represented, including one wheelchair bound participant.

At the end of the day, of course, no one is going to work magic. If you can't use your core strength and torso to generate force, maintain balance and otherwise keep your opponent from hurting and controlling you, that is a fact of life you will have to accept. Well Rounded Close Quarters fighting training, including knife and pistol work, are available from a variety of sources. Good Luck.

-RJP
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: Michael Bane on February 06, 2009, 11:17:22 AM
I strongly urge you to sit down with a local attorney who specializes in or has handled self-defense cases. We often think we know the law, but in reality we have a crazy quilt of what we've heard, what we've read what we've seen on television and the movies, what the guys at the gun club say, etc.

You need specific legal guidelines because of your back injuries...everyone's definition of the "gravest extreme," the point at which you can use lethal force to protect yourself or others, is different (as court cases have repeatedly shown).

Michael B
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: TheBowhunter on February 06, 2009, 02:45:48 PM
Thank you all for your input here I am seeing an attorney tomorrow for other things and I can ask her that question and maybe she can refer Me to someone for this answer.
 I will post what my locals say here. Maybe this could be a subject to air on  the program to help others here as well with similar problems
Thanks all
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: Thanos on February 06, 2009, 04:09:26 PM
I have a very badly damaged leg from being crushed while in the military. I couldn't walk for a year and finally I got a  Disabled Parking Placard so I could get the disabled rate for the train that I used to take to work ($30 vs 160). After reading the fine print I found some really interesting things, like I don't have to feed the parking meters and I can park in spots for longer than the posted times. Needless to say, I have not paid for parking in 5 years. ;) But I degress;

Since I am "disabled" (I cannot run), I consider any incident that I cannot talk my way out of as me backed into a corner. If I felt that someone was going to harm me, my wife or children and I could not back away safely. I would be able to consider using force. (Now before anyone jumps all over this, Force is the LAST resort after trying all other things) Since I can't flee without being caught by even the most out of shape 2nd grader, fleeing (anything more than walking backwards) is not factored in to the equation in my mind. Keep in mind that I once told a guy that his girlfreind could kick my butt so I could avoid a fight.

A guy got out of his car that was in front of mine and hit me in the face at a stoplight. I tailed him till the cops arrived and he got charged with assault and went to jail. His lawyer called me up wanting my side of the story and I told him what happened (Road rage 18yr old kid) He asked me if I got out of my car and I said "No, truthfully it would have been hard because I am disabled"

Silence...

"Do you have a parking thing or plates?" "yes." "okay, was it up at the time?" "I think so...but I am not sure. If you need me to testify in court I will be more than happy to come in" "No, that won't be needed, thank you for your time"

I bet if you got in a situation that you had to use force and they found out you were disabled, they would not try to railroad you, if they did you could always call the ADA. The kid got a lesser assault charge.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: PegLeg45 on February 06, 2009, 09:44:06 PM
I have a very badly damaged leg from being crushed while in the military. I couldn't walk for a year and finally I got a  Disabled Parking Placard so I could get the disabled rate for the train that I used to take to work ($30 vs 160). After reading the fine print I found some really interesting things, like I don't have to feed the parking meters and I can park in spots for longer than the posted times. Needless to say, I have not paid for parking in 5 years. ;) But I degress;

Since I am "disabled" (I cannot run), I consider any incident that I cannot talk my way out of as me backed into a corner. If I felt that someone was going to harm me, my wife or children and I could not back away safely. I would be able to consider using force. (Now before anyone jumps all over this, Force is the LAST resort after trying all other things) Since I can't flee without being caught by even the most out of shape 2nd grader, fleeing (anything more than walking backwards) is not factored in to the equation in my mind. Keep in mind that I once told a guy that his girlfreind could kick my butt so I could avoid a fight.

A guy got out of his car that was in front of mine and hit me in the face at a stoplight. I tailed him till the cops arrived and he got charged with assault and went to jail. His lawyer called me up wanting my side of the story and I told him what happened (Road rage 18yr old kid) He asked me if I got out of my car and I said "No, truthfully it would have been hard because I am disabled"

Silence...

"Do you have a parking thing or plates?" "yes." "okay, was it up at the time?" "I think so...but I am not sure. If you need me to testify in court I will be more than happy to come in" "No, that won't be needed, thank you for your time"

I bet if you got in a situation that you had to use force and they found out you were disabled, they would not try to railroad you, if they did you could always call the ADA. The kid got a lesser assault charge.

I hear you. I'm in the same boat. I can't run so I have a whole different set of 'rules' to play by. If I'm lucky I can hide behind something big (can't squat or kneel either, left knee doesn't bend more than 30 degrees).
Basically, if I can't weasel my way out of a bad situation, and if the SHTF, I got to root in one spot and fight it out.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: devzal on February 06, 2009, 10:19:33 PM
When there is a legal concern always seek an attorney's advice. God forbid you ever have to use force, but if it happens you should have a lawyer present during questioning, even if you did everything right. The combination of adrenalin, fear, and relief will cause a lot of things to come out of your mouth. An experienced law enforcement officer understands this, but the time waiting to make a statement other than you feared for your life will let you calm down a bit and think more reasonably. You will be at the police station all night anyway. Also talk with a physical therapist, you are most likely familiar with one, they may help you train your back or help you prepare for physical training.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: Thanos on February 06, 2009, 11:21:13 PM
When there is a legal concern always seek an attorney's advice. God forbid you ever have to use force, but if it happens you should have a lawyer present during questioning, even if you did everything right. The combination of adrenalin, fear, and relief will cause a lot of things to come out of your mouth. An experienced law enforcement officer understands this, but the time waiting to make a statement other than you feared for your life will let you calm down a bit and think more reasonably. You will be at the police station all night anyway. Also talk with a physical therapist, you are most likely familiar with one, they may help you train your back or help you prepare for physical training.

A very good point.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: tombogan03884 on February 06, 2009, 11:56:52 PM
NEVER talk to police without a lawyer present, it's what they get paid for. Both the cop and the lawyer have been to school to learn how to deal with these matters, you have not.
There was a thread with a great 45 min. video a while back.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: Jim Urban on February 07, 2009, 06:27:25 PM

Here's the link to the video Tom was referring to. http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: Rob Pincus on February 08, 2009, 01:10:06 PM
Okay, guys... this one's wandering off-course a bit......  Search the forum for the threads on legal issues. Opinions vary.

Bowhunter:  The answer is to get out there and train. Any instructor worth the title is going to accommodate your physical limitations and try to help you become safer.

-RJP
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: TheBowhunter on February 09, 2009, 09:39:35 AM
OK here is a quick debriefing I have spoke to my Attorney , I’m  glade I did to she also has a CCW permit and has looked into some of Kansas’s laws anyhow  this is the information she relayed to me about this problem with my neighbor. then we will close this Topic.
My Attorney stated this situation with neighbor and other situation may differ after looking at his record :
He has been arrested four times for Battery of spouse
One time for child abuse.
Three time for disorderly conduct.
Had Five complaint called in for threat of bodily harm. (By ME).
Five DUI and two were resisting arrest.
All this within a three years , I also know he does drugs you smell it very strong on him and he is very paranoid person as well.
She said she could proof it as justifiable self defense. with his record and show she   could get plenty of neighbors and friends as character witness’s on my behalf. I guess that will cover this 
She said she could show it justifiable. But I still am going to take a class on Close quarters combat course to help me and my wife. I need it and I need to work  strengthen  my back muscles.
Thank all for your in put
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: devzal on February 09, 2009, 10:03:51 AM
Good luck with everything and I hope he moves away from you.
Title: Re: I wont say I can not defend myself?
Post by: THE CORONER on February 09, 2009, 12:26:40 PM
Bowhunter, If I may be blunt, why are you concerned about non-lethal force? 

I am not an attorney, I don't play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express.  Seriously, from what I understand of your injuries, it seems you are in danger of serious physical injury, or death if you try to engage almost anyone in a physical confrontation.  Anyone who would assault you is a serious threat and should be dealt with appropriately.   When it comes to fighting for your life, or the life of your bride, anything goes.  There is no such thing as a "fair fight."  Either you win and live, or you lose and die, or your loved one dies. 

In virtually every state, laws are on the books and court rulings support the concept that a person who is more vulnerable than others because of a physical disability, or condition, or advanced age, etc. are justified in using deadly force if they reasonably  believe their life is in danger.   Is it reasonable to expect a 70 year old woman in a wheel chair to physically fight an able bodied young attacker?  No.  Same thing applies to someone such as you describe yourself. 

In researching officer involved shootings several years ago, I found a couple of cases where police officers were attacked by an unarmed, but physically larger and stronger assailant.  In both cases the officer found himself and herself being choked to the point of losing consciousness, when they were able to use their firearms to survive.  Good shootings in both cases.  You don't have to take it, whatever IT is.  You don't have to joust with someone who seriously wants to hurt you. 

You are legally justified in using deadly force under certain circumstances.  If you have a moral or ethical concern, may I suggest you seek the services of a professional counselor, or member of the clergy for spiritual guidance?   

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/police.png)

I WAS GLAD TO SEE THIS REPLY TO THIS QUESTION.  I TOO SUFFER AILMENTS FROM DAYS GONE BY.  BAD SHOULDER, ELBOW, HIP, AND FOOT.  ALL SAME SIDE INJURIES.  RUNNING AWAY, NOT AN OPTION ANYMORE.  I'M NOT YOUNG OR STRONG ENOUGH PHYSICALLY TO BATTLE THIS YOUNGER GENERATION OF PROBABLE CRIMINALS ANYMORE.  FOR THIS REASON, I PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO TACTICS TAUGHT ON BEST DEFENSE TELEVISION, AND OTHER SHOWS EDUCATING SELF DEFENSE.  THESE GUYS ARE THE PROFESSIONALS.  BUT TALKING TO YOUR ATTORNEY ISN'T OUT OF THE QUESTION ABOUT THE LEGAL QUESTION OF DEADLY FORCE IN SELF DEFENSE.

A COUPLE OF THINGS I HAVE LEARNED IS TO MAINTAIN A CONSTANT AWARENESS OF MY SURROUNDINGS.  TO PAY CLOSER ATTENTION TO OTHERS IN MY IMMEDIATE THREAT AREA.  AND TO CARRY MY FIREARM IN SUCH A WAY THAT I HAVE TACTICAL ACCESS TO IT IN EVERY SITUATION...WHETHER IN THE CAR, WALKING DOWN THE STREET, OR SITTING IN MY LIVINGROOM AT HOME.  BUT THE BEST TACTICAL ADVISE I'VE LEARNED IS TO MAINTAIN A SAFE TACTICAL DISTANCE WHEN POSSIBLE.  THIS WILL HOPEFULLY GIVE YOU ENOUGH TIME TO ACT ACCORDINGLY.  BUT REFUSE TO BE A VICTIM IN YOUR MINDSET FIRST.

BOWHUNTER, WHEN YOU DROP YOUR GUARD, YOU MAY BECOME A VICTIM.  I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD BE SUSPICIOUS OF EVERYONE YOU ENCOUNTER; BUT YOU SHOULD LEARN "just my advise" HOW TO SAFEGUARD YOURSELF AGAINST EVERYONE YOU ENCOUNTER.