The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Ulmus on February 02, 2009, 08:52:31 AM
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I am thinking about getting a semiauto rifle for my next rifle and I have it down to these two choices.
The Kel Tec is the "Bravo" model and the Ruger is the "Tactical" model.
Both have a roughly 16" barrel and 1:9 twists rifling.
The Kel Tec has a lighter and possibly weaker front stock, but the rifle will accept AR15 style magazines.
The Ruger has a stronger stock, but is heavier and I don't know if it accepts AR mags or not. (Maybe someone can educate me.)
Whatever one I get will be used mainly for range plinking with a slight nod for after hurricane home defense since I live in Florida.
Here are the pics fromtheir prospective sites.
(http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/sub16b_pic01.jpg)
(http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/437L.jpg)
So what would you choose and why?
PS: I know people are going to ask, "Why not buy/build an AR instead?" I just like the style of these better.
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Nothing against the Kel-Tec but I would choose the Mini 14. The mini is well known for extreme reliability and durability as it is based on the venerable M1 action that saw battle in three wars. The mini also as more after market accessories available so if you ever wanted to change it into a tactical gun with lights and lasers you can, or if you want to have it accurized into a long range coyote stomper you can do that too. I also agree with you on the AR. A great rifle no doubt but I like my Mini 14. Also, the Mini 14 has its own magazines, it DOES NOT accept AR mags.
The Kel Tec concerns me a little and while I will preface this statement with the fact I have not shot the Kel Tec I have owned one of their pistols and I like them a lot but by their own admission they are only rated for so many rounds to be shot through them and that doesn't sit well with me. I know, I know they are great guns and meet the needs of cc and a specific price point but for a rifle and a plinker I would avoid. Looks more like something to have in a jump bag or a grab-and-go bag not a ard core shooter. Now don't bust my chops too hard, this is just a precursory opinion based on my experience with their handguns I like Kel-Tec but for your purposes I would choose the Mini.
Hope this helps!
Wheelgun
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but by their own admission they are only rated for so many rounds to be shot through them and that doesn't sit well with me. Wheelgun
How many rounds are they "rated" for?? Bill T.
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The SU 16 B is on my list of "hope to own" someday. The single most distinctive characteristic of the Kel Tec is its collapsible size. It is not intended as a main battle rifle for some nations army. It is very small, compact and light. It doesn't require a CCW. It can be thrown into a backpack, go bag or car trunk. It accepts AR mags because it is intended to be a flexible alternative using a commodity mag like the ARs. The cartridge moves you up the scale of impact from nearly any pistol round. If you can do with a pistol fine. But if you, for a variety of reasons, want a rifle cartridge and a longer barrel with the associated longer strike distance for survival, plinking or SHTF purposes I am going with the Kel Tec. Most of these scenarios are pipe dreams anyway. I think the SU16B is a really fine firearm that meets a niche market requirment. Like most gun discussions they center around minor differences and folks understanding their very personal circumstances.
Now if anyone wants to buy me a Ruger I will be quite happy to accept. ;D
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I have a Kel-Tec collapsible in .40 S&W that uses Glock 22 mags. It is light, very accurate, compact, and reliable and I would recommend their products. I would like to have one of the SU-16's to compliment my Mini-14.
If I were forced to chose between the two, however, I would go with the mini-14 for the reasons stated previously by others. They are based on a well-proven design and are rugged and die-hard reliable (albeit to the loss of some long range accuracy).
I've had mine for over 20 years and it is still going strong.
Here is a good thread on the Mini-14:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=1505.0
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Billt,
If you go to Kel-Tec's website and their FAQ section about midway down the page, you'll find this:
Q : What is the expected life of a Kel-Tec firearm
A : All Kel-Tec firearms have an expected life of 6,000 rounds or more
Again, I like these products I have always spoken well of Kel-Tec and even owned them and carried them, but this has to be taken into account when purchasing a rifle depending on the reasons for buying the gun.
Wheelgun
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If you can't get both, I vote for the SU-16. How cool is it to have a carbine that folds in half and takes the same (mostly) inexpensive mags as an AR-15. Better yet get the PLR-16 pistol instead. 8)
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I would shoot for an AR-180B myself, but AmraLite doesn't list them anymore.
Of the two I would be hard pressed to make a decision as neither striks me as a serious social weapon. I would probably go for the Ruger, despite the magazine issue, the SU-16 just does not turn my crank.
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6,000 rounds does sound a bit limited. I've never heard of a gun manufacturer stating a round count life of a firearm like that. Bill T.
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I also read that ther Kel Tec don't like aluminum or steel cased ammo. How is the Ruger in this respect?
The "Hurricane Security" aspect is a very small point for me. I went through "Charlie" with just a revolver and never needed to pull it. Odds of actually having a fire fight in Charlotte County was very low and even with population increase, I still see it as such. I'd say the rifle I choose will be used at the range 99.5% of the time with a .5% for home defense.
I think I should add this to the mix.
Which is easier to clean?
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Billt,
If you go to Kel-Tec's website and their FAQ section about midway down the page, you'll find this:
Q : What is the expected life of a Kel-Tec firearm
A : All Kel-Tec firearms have an expected life of 6,000 rounds or more
Again, I like these products I have always spoken well of Kel-Tec and even owned them and carried them, but this has to be taken into account when purchasing a rifle depending on the reasons for buying the gun.
Wheelgun
Anyone call Kel Tec to better explain the answer? I suspect that they are setting a MINIMUM. That is why they use the words OR MORE. If you are shooting any firearm, accuracy will decrease with the number of rounds thru the barrel. Speak to any highpower competitor. Six to ten thousand rounds sounds right to me. I don't think they meant that the entire rifle will somehow self destruct.
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True enough, but the AK is rated for about 60,000, or 10 times as much, and that's for the full auto.
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Tom can you better define what 'rated' means. Does it refer to accuracy or parts failure or what? tks...
UPDATE:
I just called up Kel Tec (hell I got nothing else to do :) ) and spoke to a supervisor at Customer Service. He said that the statement about lifetime reflected the following:
Their experience with primarily handguns.
That it was of course dependent on the ammo shot.
And finally that it was an advisory to the customers that minor parts may need replacement like recoil springs.
Also 6000 rounds represents about 300 boxes of ammo. At 7 bucks a box from Midway for Prvi Partizan FMJ that is about 2100 bucks worth of ammo (about 4x the cost of the gun). Hell if I am spending that much on ammo, 20 bucks on a recoil spring is pretty minor. Heck I just might buy a second SU16 to cannibalize.
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I also read that ther Kel Tec don't like aluminum or steel cased ammo. How is the Ruger in this respect?
The "Hurricane Security" aspect is a very small point for me. I went through "Charlie" with just a revolver and never needed to pull it. Odds of actually having a fire fight in Charlotte County was very low and even with population increase, I still see it as such. I'd say the rifle I choose will be used at the range 99.5% of the time with a .5% for home defense.
I think I should add this to the mix.
Which is easier to clean?
Thats what people in New Orleans said before Katrina...... Then, it was a great comfort for those who stayed.... dont really know of any documented cases of "get off my property" shoot outs
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If you can't get both, I vote for the SU-16. How cool is it to have a carbine that folds in half and takes the same (mostly) inexpensive mags as an AR-15. Better yet get the PLR-16 pistol instead. 8)
+1
If you really want compact size go with one of the .223 pistols -- bushmaster makes them too
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_carbon15_AZ-C15P21S.asp
Q: can you put a shoulder stock on those bushmaster pistols?
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Tom can you better define what 'rated' means. Does it refer to accuracy or parts failure or what? tks...
UPDATE:
I just called up Kel Tec (hell I got nothing else to do :) ) and spoke to a supervisor at Customer Service. He said that the statement about lifetime reflected the following:
Their experience with primarily handguns.
That it was of course dependent on the ammo shot.
And finally that it was an advisory to the customers that minor parts may need replacement like recoil springs.
Also 6000 rounds represents about 300 boxes of ammo. At 7 bucks a box from Midway for Prvi Partizan FMJ that is about 2100 bucks worth of ammo (about 4x the cost of the gun). Hell if I am spending that much on ammo, 20 bucks on a recoil spring is pretty minor. Heck I just might buy a second SU16 to cannibalize.
Barrel wear.
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Thats what people in New Orleans said before Katrina...... Then, it was a great comfort for those who stayed.... dont really know of any documented cases of "get off my property" shoot outs
Charlie, a cat 4 hurricane went through Charlotte county 1 year before Katrina went through New Orleans. The "mid point" police station was destroyed along with a good 50% of the affected area. (90% of the area was damaged in some way.) You can sometimes see the huuricane hit on "Storm Stories" on the Weather Channel.
FEMA came in three days later and in the time between, people actually helped each other out! Yes there was some looting, but nothing near the Katrina scope. I'd hasve to say we were without power for roughly one month. Many people had generators by that time. (This is when you really realize how dependant on oil we are!)
There was a "FEMA camp" built and the crime in that camp was much higher percentage wise than the rest of the county. But there were no roving bands of looters and the police actually did do their job of maintaining order in the county with the help of the national guard.
I spent my days cleaning up the (I don't even know how to put it correctly.) (Wow) total annialation of what used to be a mobile home/ retirment village that I work for. Out of roughly 450 mobile homes, 300 were completely destroyed! All of those remaining had damage of one sort or another. And after every day, I'd come home and see it was never broken into and looted.
And that is why I felt secure with having just a revolver.
That is also why I have just a "slight nod" towards another hurricane defense scenario.
The people here will work together for the common good.
Its a mindset you will rarely see in a large city, because of population size and the mentality that comes with it.
In a smallish suburban area you have the physical room to breath and keep your privacy. In a heavy urban environment, people will put up mental "fences" so they have some semblence of privacy. That is where the "None of my business" attitude comes from and why so many walked passed that homeless guy in D.C. and allowed him to die. Now I did see some major shifts in this after 9-11. When the power went down in NYC and all the people walked home enmass. That was impressive. No looting and no panicing. It almost gives you hope for common decency.
Anyway, I've been through my Katrina disaster here in Port Charlotte and know what the general population will do in that stressful time. (For the most part.) I do have a shotgun and the lucky 30-30 if I need them for defense. That is why I would like either of these two rifles. (I am definitely leaning towards the Mini 14 at this point.) I know my area and I know my limits when it comes to shooting. This rifle will be a range plinker like all the rest of my guns.
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Ran across a neat review of the SU16 for survival purposes. The overall was pretty positive.
http://www.equipped.com/Kel-Tec_SU-16_Review.htm
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Mini 14. Much more versatile with configurations and more durable. I had a sub 2000 9mm and it was neat to have a 33 rd mag but the novelty wore off and it became just a plastic black gun to me. Also now I like to buy guns that appreciate in value rather than depreciate quickly. Traded it for a down payment on a Smith 18-3.
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I would never stake my life on a SU16. I have a friend who's Su16 gave him face full of hurt when the gun crackes after a 120 rounds at the range. After his visit to the hospital we cut the gun into pieces and mailed it back Kel tec with the bill.
MINI 14 hands down. >:(
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I hope your friend is ok!
Which model SU-16 was it? The A,B, or C? Each one has a different thickness in the barrel.
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The pile of junk was the Su16c, a total waste of money and a danger those that come near it. My friend Jake has a nasty scar across his face.
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The pile of junk was the Su16c, a total waste of money and a danger those that come near it. My friend Jake has a nasty scar across his face.
Just for curiosity's sake, how did kel-tec respond? I had a P-11 for a while that I never really did get comfortable with, but it was ok for the money. When I called customer service they seemed friendly and helpful. I'm just curious as to how they respond in Oh Crap situation.
fightingquaker13
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Fightingquaker13 don't bother with kel tec firearms. They make these things with the hope that you might not die using it. Quality is none, I would rather take my maglight to a gun fight.
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Fightingquaker13 don't bother with kel tec firearms. They make these things with the hope that you might not die using it. Quality is none, I would rather take my maglight to a gun fight.
More "brand X is junk" based on one persons experience. Where you shooting .223 or 5.56 nato ?
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We were using pmc 223 55gr ammo from walmart. Kel tec said that they would pay for everthing and replace the defective gun, but Jake refused the gun but took the payment.
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Well thats cool
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The Min 14 is a very reliable gun and can be use for almost anything.