The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tt11758 on February 02, 2009, 10:55:38 AM
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We all KNOW this to be a fact, but ABC did a 20/20 segment, which was surprisingly informative and UNbiased. I'm surprised it ever saw the light of day.
http://splodetv.com/more-gun-laws-more-gun-crimes (http://splodetv.com/more-gun-laws-more-gun-crimes)
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Actually it has been proven time and time again that guns play no role in crime stats.
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When was that produced? The only date I saw was Sept. 2007. Regardless, we need to thank ABC for the fair reporting as a way of encouraging more of the same.
I would rather put up with some negative press because it is true and balanced, than to get the false negative that comes with biased reporting.
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Actually it has been proven time and time again that guns play no role in crime stats.
WRONG! (and you have yet to ever give any credible evidence to back up this outlandish statement that you continually issue)
Here are a few that disprove your "theory"
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4894.msg57915#msg57915
According to a study by criminologist Gary Kleck of Florida State University, “[R]obbery and assault victims who used a gun to resist were less likely to be attacked or to suffer an injury than those who used any other methods of self-protection or those who did not resist at all.” In approximately 2.5 million instances each year, someone uses a firearm, predominantly a handgun, for self defense in this nation.
In research sponsored by the U.S. Department of Justice, in which almost 2,000 felons were interviewed, 34% of felons said they had been “scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim" and 40% of these criminals admitted that they had been deterred from committing a crime out of fear that the potential victim was armed.
Allowing law-abiding people to arm themselves offers more than piece of mind for those individuals -- it pays off for everybody through lower crime rates. Statistics from the FBI’s Uniformed Crime Report of 2007 show that states with right-to-carry laws have a 30% lower homicide rate, 46% lower robbery, and 12% lower aggravated assault rate and a 22% lower overall violent crime rate than do states without such laws. That is why more and more states have passed right-to-carry laws over the past decade.
In 1987, my home state of Florida enacted a “shall issue” law that has become the model for other states. Anti-gun groups, politicians and the news media predicted the new law would lead to vigilante justice and “Wild West” shootouts on every corner.
But since adopting a concealed carry law Florida’s total violent crime rate has dropped 32% and its homicide rate has dropped 58%. Floridians, except for criminals, are safer due to this law. And Florida is not alone. Texas’ violent crime rate has dropped 20% and homicide rate has dropped 31%, since enactment of its 1996 carry law.
A report by John Lott, Jr. and David Mustard of the University of Chicago released in 1996 found "that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths." Further, the Lott-Mustard study noted, "If those states which did not have right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravate assaults would have been avoided yearly."
Should your natural right to self defense and your Constitutional right to bear arms end when you cross a state line? I think not.
That is why I, along with Representative Rich Boucher (D-Va.) introduced H.R. 197, the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act.
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Ok please tell me how they proved that it was guns that cuased those drops and not something else?
I'll wait.
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Ok please tell me how they proved that it was guns that cuased those drops and not something else?
I'll wait.
You tell us what else it could be. If there has not been a huge decrease in the criminal population as a percentage of the total population, or a huge visible and constant presence of law enforcement, what else would cause this change?
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Ok please tell me how they proved that it was guns that cuased those drops and not something else?
I'll wait.
So you think that it is pure coincidence that states with right-to-carry laws have a 30% lower homicide rate, 46% lower robbery, 12% lower aggravated assault rate and a 22% lower overall violent crime rate than states without such laws?
You think that it just magically happened that Florida had a decrease of 32% in violent crime and a decrease in the homicide rate of 58% once they allowed for concealed carry?
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that the two are correlated. Yes, the FBI's crime report is merely giving the statistics of what happened after the laws were changed, but I think it is patently obvious that loosening draconian gun laws reduces crime. I am not saying that there are not other factors aside from the actual presence of guns that could be at play here. After all, there does not actually have to be a gun present to deter crime -- just a reasonable belief that there might be one could be enough of a deterent.
However, to say that "it has been proven time and time again that guns play no role in crime stats" is nothing but garbage....... So, I'll ask you again to present evidence that supports your claim??
I'll wait.
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So you think that it is pure coincidence that states with right-to-carry laws have a 30% lower homicide rate, 46% lower robbery, 12% lower aggravated assault rate and a 22% lower overall violent crime rate than states without such laws?
You think that it just magically happened that Florida had a decrease of 32% in violent crime and a decrease in the homicide rate of 58% once they allowed for concealed carry?
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that the two are correlated. Yes, the FBI's crime report is merely giving the statistics of what happened after the laws were changed, but I think it is patently obvious that loosening draconian gun laws reduces crime. I am not saying that there are not other factors aside from the actual presence of guns that could be at play here. After all, there does not actually have to be a gun present to deter crime -- just a reasonable belief that there might be one could be enough of a deterent.
However, to say that "it has been proven time and time again that guns play no role in crime stats" is nothing but garbage....... So, I'll ask you again to present evidence that supports your claim??
I'll wait.
ok if more guns = less crime, explain to me how AK has the most sexual assualts then any other state?
there you don't even need a CCW...
Maybe its something else...
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Still waiting.... ::)
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Man, got kinda quiet around here.
Probably the same coincidence that when firearms are restricted crime rates go up.
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So where is your proof that guns are the reasons for the decline?
Still waiting on that.
I know guns play zero role in crime figures. There are just too many factors envoled when it comes to how people act, to narrow it down to Something like guns. I would love to see some one prove me wrong about that, but it just has not happend and never will.
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Tab,
I am convinced you are a woman.
You go along fine, and play well with all of us on here for a few weeks at a time, and then you go through periods like the last few days where all you do is pick fights :(
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I try to see all sides of all issues, but TAB, no matter how hard I try, I just can't see things from your perspective. ;D
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TAB, it is almost comical that you cant see the correlation between citizens being allowed to CCW and a dramatic reduction in crime.
To use Alaska's sexual assault rate (also with no reference given for this info) as your only defense is ridiculous. You are citing one instance to disprove statistics given by the FBI that shows that on a macro level it is highly successful. To ignore this does show that you have very selective hearing (See jumbofrank's post).
Alaska is very isolated and unique in terms of geography, demographic and culture as compared to the rest of the U.S. If loose gun laws did not have a strong impact on crime there, I could see how there might be other factors in play in that state.
What you said in your first post in this thread (and in the many other times you've said it in other threads) is unsubstantiated. I dont know why you continue to buy into this notion, but spreading your misguided beliefs as gospel fact is reckless and dangerous.
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Actually it has been proven time and time again that guns play no role in crime stats.
When convicts are interviewed about why they leave some targets and pick others, the number one reason cited was that they feared that the potential target may have been armed and they feared getting shot. That is distinct proof that crime was, at the very least, reduced for those potential targets. There is no more direct proof that guns effect crime than this.
Tab, I don't get it. Are you really a liberal plant, or maybe a sheep in sheepdog's clothing? Sometimes it seems that you believe in the right to bare arms and other times it seems like you're on board with the people who believe in "reasonable" restrictions/infringements. I don't mean to attack you. I just wonder where you're coming from. Are you just trying to be the devil's advocate?
A Tale of Two Cities
2/2/2009
Two cities face each other across the U.S.-Mexican border.
In one of them, oppressive gun control restricts legal firearm ownership to an elite few approved by the bureaucrats in power. In the other city, the right to keep and bear arms is respected by the constitutions of the nation and the state.
Which city -Juarez, Mexico or El Paso, Texas -resembles a war zone?
Juarez had over 1,500 murders in 2008. That's a homicide rate of more than 100 per 100,000. Just across the border, El Paso's population of 600,000 had just 16 murders in 2008.
American gun control advocates claim that if only we'd pass "common-sense restrictions" like they have in Juarez, our city streets would be safer. That's nonsense! Mexico's gun control laws haven't stopped the drug cartels from turning Juarez into a killing zone.
Meanwhile, El Paso's law-and-order mentality goes hand in hand with legal gun ownership. Of the tens of thousands of gun owners in El Paso, thousands are Right-to-Carry permit holders. And El Paso is one of the safest cities in the nation.
The difference between Juarez and El Paso is as clear as night and day ... because it's as clear as the difference between gun control and crime control.
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Look at Dallas/ FW, compared to NY. Or for that matter compare the 2006 numbers for Baghdad and Washington. An American was safer in Baghdad at the height of the insurgency than he was in Washington DC.
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Those numbers for sexual assualts came from the FBI.
Since your using the FBI, they have said more then once that guns have no role in gun stats.
Just as the FBI said the AWB did nothing to effect crime.
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Those numbers for sexual assualts came from the FBI.
Since your using the FBI, they have said more then once that guns have no role in gun stats.
Just as the FBI said the AWB did nothing to effect crime.
But the FBI did prove that the most effective method of defense against a violent attack is a gun, even when their study was originally commissioned to show the opposite.
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Was the AK sexual assault correlated for population? 10,000 people in Nome, AK had "x" number equals a higher percentage than
a city like Dallas or Miami with a couple million.
Stats can be a double edged sword.
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Was the AK sexual assault correlated for population? 10,000 people in Nome, AK had "x" number equals a higher percentage than
a city like Dallas or Miami with a couple million.
Stats can be a double edged sword.
It was per capita.( IE per person. take the number of SA divide by population)
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TAB has managed to deflect you all from the real issue. There have been government and university studies that all show "More Gun Laws = More Gun Crime". Aurguing about one aspect of crime vs gun ownership/laws, is like aurguing about whether the sun causes daylight.
Stop quiblling over the details and look at the bigger picture.
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He has that effect when he goes Ca. on us. ;D